I am no longer your moderator... - Page 2

Darkstar · March 6, 2001, 18:18

Lord of the Mark... Great Suggestion! Everyone! Let's go to Kolpo's house!

You know, my main concern is that Yin, like the other moderators here, are volunteers. Mark, Dan, you get what you pay for. Since you aren't paying them, you cannot reasonably expect them to act anything less then the posters they are. If you are lucky, they will mellow out a bit. From what I recall of Yin back on Alpha.Owo, he is very mellow here.

However, take a lesson out of this, Mark and Dan. Write down every rule and code of conduct that you PRESUME everyone else will know when they are a moderator for Apolyton. Because the odds are, they won't know them all. That's human nature. Then, give it to your moderators. As it sounds like Yin wasn't told that what he did would be so worrisome to Mark, it sounds like if that had been done before hand, Yin may have understand that to have done as he had would be a great risk.

I would hope that this matter settles, and that Yin and Mark remain on good terms. If Yin would rather not be the moderator, then congrats. If Yin would, then I would hope that Yin and Mark can shake hands and settle this odd matter to each's satisfaction.

-Darkstarr

markusf · March 6, 2001, 20:11

After reading this i have to ask, what the hell is wrong with you mark and yin? As far as i can tell the article is a development philosophy which hits very close to the truth. As for this in any way harming a "relationship" between firixas and apolyton, that’s the dumbest thing i have heard in a while. Firixas doesn't give a **** about apolyton, it’s a promotional tool, and a site to get quick responses and ideas from potential customers nothing more. This may not be how you see it but it’s the way things are in the software world. All major software releases need user acceptance testing, or user requirements. With software like games, this is nearly impossible to do, but places like apolyton fill that role to an extent. As a developer, i find much of what is posted in the civ3 forum useless, ie a thread about someone whining that the musketeer has only 3 points on his hat. Or someone complaining about any proposed changes from the original civ 2 etc etc. Anyways i find yin's threads a breath of fresh air, as like this thread they should what software development is like in reality not in fantasy. btw can i be moderator? :P

Imran Siddiqui · March 6, 2001, 21:35

I see Mark's point (something I don't say often

), but I think Mark made a mistake in the first place by hiring Yin. No offense, but the moderator, as Mark said is a 'moderating' force, a objective person (mostly). Yin didn't fit the mold then, and he doesn't now, for the most part. A guy known as rabble rouser gets mod position, and you didn't expect this? Come on!

March 6, 2001, 21:36

Boo MarkG. Boo.

Mark, if a topic has been discussed even once before, even if it was months ago, another topic on it can't be discussed without being called a troll? Ok, now how many threads, on all forums, using your logic would be closed? More than I would care to count. Yin just posted an article which is of importance to the civ 3 community since they will be buying the game. We all now know for sure who's ass you kiss and who you care about. Both of those answers are the developers. Hey **** us right, we are just customers, we can be replaced with advertising.

Yin, I'm sorry to hear how you were thrown out, and how you had to recieve that sorry excuse of a thank you from MarkG.

Grandpa Troll · March 6, 2001, 22:11

~Looking in mirror..combing what little Hair I have left..brushing my 3 good teeth I have left~

Now whats so bad about being a troll?

Hey Yin..I take it as a compliment..but well I kinda think you to be a wee bit better than I

But for real folks..

(Clearing throat LOUDLY)

Quoting the Great Sir Rodney Of Los Angelas..."Cant we all..Just..Get along?"

I think we all need some lovin...

Lets just try and get along.

.Yin..u are a moderator..Here..I have the new list of Do's and Dont's

Mark..Give back his Title and lets all just "Agree 2 Disagree"

(My snoring awakens me)

Wow..had a dream..where all men got along..where one day..we shall all have the right to opinions..and vested interest in one common cause... A TRUE CIVILIZATION BUG FREE GAME!!

Thats my story and Im sticking to it!!

Troll

------------------
If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

Grandpa Troll · March 6, 2001, 22:14

quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 03-06-2001 08:35 PM
I see Mark's point (something I don't say often

), but I think Mark made a mistake in the first place by hiring Yin. No offense, but the moderator, as Mark said is a 'moderating' force, a objective person (mostly). Yin didn't fit the mold then, and he doesn't now, for the most part. A guy known as rabble rouser gets mod position, and you didn't expect this? Come on!

Now Thats Entertainment!!

OUCHIE..That hurts..

but truth often does!!

Troll

------------------
If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

Grandpa Troll · March 6, 2001, 22:20

Ok..Ok..this may be off topic..but just asking..will the throne room be included in CIV III?

If so..will it have Mark's or Yin's stauesque figure within?

Heh Heh Heh

J/K

Troll

------------------
If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

Zanzin · March 7, 2001, 00:30

At the end of the fifteen round bout, we have the result from the judges!!

And......It's a draw!!

C'mon kids (MarkG and Yin) fighting solves nothing!

Now kiss and make up

)

yin26 · March 7, 2001, 00:54

Captain Obvious and everyone else who supported me these past two years:

It's silly how this turned out. As you know, I think I deserved something more all things considered. But this is life in the big bad world of forums. Actually, it's a small miracle I lasted this long, though much of that time I was just watching more than anything else.

I think, perhaps, it was time for me to step down and let a more active person come in. I've also been wanting to express more of my opinions, which was almost impossible as a moderator. So while I'm happy being free, so to speak, blah blah blah (you know the rest

).

Now, let's just get a great Civ3 in our hands!

RedFred · March 7, 2001, 01:11

I read the whole thing first...

Thanks for all your efforts in making 'Poly a better place yin. I am more of a SMAC guy than a CivIII guy, so I don't have many comments on your moderating skills. I do have some comments on your posting skills though. I haven't always agreed with you, but at .owo, ACOL and here, I have found your posts to be interesting and thought-provoking.

I, for one, am sorry to see you lose your "mod" title. I hope that you will continue to post as a "private citizen".

Nemo · March 7, 2001, 01:16

bye, yin.
as a moderator you can't be someone going around stirring up trouble all the time, as you did. If you wanted to do that you should have not accepted the possition as a moderator. i respect the hard work you have put in, but am actually happy that you, and you opinions, are not at a moderator status.
as a moderator, you need to have an unbiased view point. And if a company gives you information, they expect that you are business minded enough, not to hand it out to the public, esp. w/o their permission (if that is the case or not, i am still unclear. but since it was "private" i expect it was not intended for teh public). I'll bet that it is with this "understanding" (and of course being a great source for their customers input, and a marketing ploy) that Apolyton gets the interviews, and developer output that they do, because they are respected by the industry, and seen as a professional site. Posting a private message, esp. in its entirety is NOT professional, and if it rubbed firaxis the wrong way, may even hinder future bits of info on the game.
Not professional, not moderator-like ...bye yin.

[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited March 06, 2001).]

kolpo · March 7, 2001, 01:40

Because of the offensive non constructive tone of the message fail I to understand why it is so wrong to post that. There was also no clear written rule about that subject. I don't know any democratic country where someone can be punished for doing something that isn't clearly against the written rules. The only nations where things like that can happen are communistic and despotistic nations. And yes you have the complet freedom to rule this site on wathever unfair communistic way you want just like Sadam has the complet freedom to rule Irak like he wants, it is his country after all ? But just like with Sadam want I to say that the fact that it is his country(your server) doesn't make it good and doesn't change the fact that it is unfair.

Bkeela · March 7, 2001, 01:54

In defense of MarkG, he doesn't censor unfavourable discussions concerning game companies, we are quite free to discuss anything we so desire. Although he does offer up some hammy replies...

Yin, I would also request you don't disappear, as you are a like the 'Ying', of MarkG's 'Yang'. I just wish you both could shake hands like gentlemen, and put all of this behind you.

Bkeela.

tmarcl · March 7, 2001, 02:14

Just to add my two cents:

Yin, I have to say that Mark was right to be upset. Posting a private message on a public forum (especially one where the writer is an active participant) is very rude. At best, it shows a lack of respect for the writer, at worst, it's a breach of trust. If you had a problem with something Mark had said (and I agree with you, the wording of the letter was a little harsh), then you need to take it up with him privately.

Also, remember that as Administrator, Mark was your boss. Talking back to your boss in any situation is a bad idea. Again, it shows lack of respect. Note, I'm not saying don't disagree with your boss-it's the best way for your boss to know what s/he is doing right or wrong, but you should never do it in an angry tone, and *certainly* never in a public forum (Yes, I know you didn't say who had written the letter, but you did know Mark would read it). I've lost a job before for arguing with my employer in front of customers, so I know whereof I speak. On the other hand, I had another employer with whom I disagreed constantly-but did so in a respectful manner. Though I no longer work with him (he couldn't afford to pay me the money I needed), we are still good friends, and he took many of my suggestions seriously.

Now that I'm done yelling at Yin, it's your turn Mark :-). While I agree with your decision, I have to say that I do disagree with your disciplining Yin publically. It's a humiliating experience to tell people (many of whom have dealt with Yin for two years-and worse, many who don't even know him!) that he no longer has your trust-and why. It also hurts his chances of becoming a list moderator somewhere else. Imagine I had a forum on my site and was thinking of asking Yin to moderate it-do you think I would now? Of course not. I know without even talking to you (his boss) or to his references (and yes, I'd ask for them :-) ) that he is insubordinate and untrustworthy. I'm certainly not going to waste my time looking to see if his work is good enough to excuse one lapse. Worse yet, I'm going to know this for as long as the post is up (which could be months from now), which is even more humiliating for Yin (assuming of course that he learns his lesson). In my opinion (and the opinion of successful bosses that I've spoken to/worked with), the best way to discipline an employee is in private. It saves him/her the humiliation of being dressed down in front of their peers, and keeps the customers from realizing there was ever a problem (because quite frankly, I do *not* want to know that you're having troubles with your moderators. It completely shakes my confidence in your site overall.)

I'm not going to stop reading and posting on Apolyton, it's an enjoyable site overall (though if you could somehow add a spell checker to the posting mechanism, it'd be great-now I have to cut and paste to MicroWord), and my opinion is, as always, worth exactly what you paid for it.

Marc

[This message has been edited by tmarcl (edited March 07, 2001).]

yin26 · March 7, 2001, 02:45

Well, while I agree with much of what you've said, his post to me was a bait that I knowingly took. Keep in mind, I never mentioned his name. This, I think, is significant. Had he not blown his mind, I never would have revealed the poster. But I won't begin to try to justify myself, since I'd do it again if only to get out from working under those conditions.

Something you fail to realize, though, is that this is a volunteer position. I don't need ****ty remarks from my "boss" who owes me a hell of a lot more than that if not a goddamn paycheck. But I went in for free. That was my choice.

Another thing you mention is "humiliation." Frankly, I think this is FAR more humiliating for Markos. If anything, it shows his lack of leadership in a time of crisis. And do you really think I give one rat's butt about being a moderator somewhere else? That's a joke. I guarantee you if some other site asked me to be a moderator, it would be because they agree with my style.

Tiberius · March 7, 2001, 03:28

My overall impression about all this is that MarkG cares more about the developers than the community, and Mark, before you ask, yes, I read it carefully, and the whole discussion about private messages and old topics and the rest of it looks like an excuse for banning Yin because he wrote something sensitive for Firaxis' eyes/ears.

Finally, beyond all this Apolyton is an enjoyable site so lets make peace and hope/work/dream/ask for the greatest, funiest and most enjoyable (and bugless

) Civ game ever!

Oh yes, I almost forgot that I've read earlier a great proposal: a spell checker on Apolyton!

Jeje2 · March 7, 2001, 03:31

I am very disappointed after reading this.
Yin, hope you continue to post here despite what happened...

Since this forum is private, we have to respect the leaders.
I'll make it sort.

Who's right and who's wrong does it matter anymore?
But I find it quite disturbing that this was public.
As tmarcl wrote it, my father thought me the same thing in two fraises.
1. If you want to praise someone, make it in front of as many co-workers as possibly.
2. If you have to haul someone, always do it in private.

I hope you can learn something from these events and we all can continue posting here.

Thank you Yin for everything.

yin26 · March 7, 2001, 04:06

Above all, I don't want to leave some bad impression. Although I disagree with Markos on the way he handled this, I also could have helped avoid it. I think this was just our absurdly irresponsible way of saying: "Moderator position now open."

Jeje2 · March 7, 2001, 04:52

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 03-07-2001 03:06 AM
"Moderator position now open."

Now how about an public election, are there any candidates?

[This message has been edited by Jeje2 (edited March 07, 2001).]

yin26 · March 7, 2001, 05:14

We have many good candidates, but I would simply stress that being a moderator has very few perks (so you can close a thread, big deal!) in exchange for a great deal of headaches (no, you HAVE to close the thread...).

OldWarrior_42 · March 7, 2001, 05:24

quote:

you would see that i didnt have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs(the proof is the poll i myself started today) but with his choice to revive a dead issue(that of the jkm article)

You say you didn't have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs,Markos.....but actually by you saying he revived a dead issue, you are taking away his right to start a discussion on bugs. That story may also only be a dead issue to you. Doeas not how everyone else feel about the matter, count? Apparently not. He used that article to start his discussion on bugs.

That statement of yours just seems very contradictory to me.

And I don't always agree with Yin either, nor him with me...but I respect his right to his opinion the same as I do for say...Imran. I disagree with Imran a whole lot more than I do with other posters but I respect his right to his opinion as well.

Markos, you just should have tried to handle it better and more professionally. Many times I see you talk about professionalism, but then you just fall into arguements and traps and then get mad and "take your bat and ball" and go home.
Silly if you ask me and I know you didn't ask...

yin26 · March 7, 2001, 05:37

Man...the article is public knowledge. What a silly premise, Markos. OW is right. Are you now to dictate the "Apolyton Approved" way to start a topic? Careful there, friend.

March 7, 2001, 06:05

quote:

Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 on 03-07-2001 04:24 AM
you are taking away his right to start a discussion

in case you didnt notice, he restarted the thread as a simple poster and i had no problem with it. so what right am i taking away from him?

March 7, 2001, 06:11

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 03-07-2001 04:37 AM
Are you now to dictate the "Apolyton Approved" way to start a topic?

for moderators appointed by me? you bet!

i think it was darkstar who said that you cant associate the act of a volunteer with apolyton. so if ming decides to start banning people for no reason, i have no responsibility for it? it would be nice

but it would never be so....

OldWarrior_42 · March 7, 2001, 06:13

Obviously you miss the point by what I intended to show to you through your initial statement. You read with literal translation. Read again or not. I don't wish to explain it.

March 7, 2001, 06:33

quote:

Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 on 03-07-2001 04:24 AM
You say you didn't have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs,Markos.....but actually by you saying he revived a dead issue, you are taking away his right to start a discussion on bugs.

as long as he is an apolyton moderator, his right to revive such issues as this article, no matter what good intention he may had, is not something acceptable by me or Dan.

somehow i'm begining to feel that this and similar "desires" of me and dan would not be accepted by yin sooner or later....

OldWarrior_42 · March 7, 2001, 06:48

Then the next logical step for you to have followed would have been one of acting professional by telling him privately that you felt he was out of place in posting that article again as long as he was a moderator and that you would like for him to not do it anymore as long as he wishes to remain a moderator.

Your PM was very demeaning and reeked of trolling on your position as well. Calling someone in roundabout ways was exactly the image portrayed by the disclosure of that message by Yin.

If you say he worded it wrong and you didn't print it to him in that manner, then please disclose just how you did post it. Otherwise it seems to me you were baiting him or just picking a fight and looking for a reason to can him.

Or getting insulted and "taking your bat and ball". :P~~~~~~

OldWarrior_42 · March 7, 2001, 07:03

And your initial statement should have read... "I did't have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs as long as he was not a moderator . But since he is, then it is my opinion that his choice of reviving a dead issue(as I see it) will not be allowed."

The way you wrote it is what I felt was (and I stress the words...the way I felt) contradictory.

Adm.Naismith · March 7, 2001, 07:21

Now I don't want to repeat my first post on this thread. I only want to underline that:
1) has been mentioned as bad to quote the full JM article. While this can be bad for bandwith, I think this is the most fair way to quote so sensible argument.
2) The article is old, but JM never posted a different opinion AFAIK (and surely he can read and reply, if he wants), so it's not as he changed his mind and someone still use old interview to "fake" JM point of view.
3) Private mail is that, private but, as far as someone quote a private message in a way that no one can know who was the original sender, and the quoted part (as full as possible, see point 1) don't point to damage someone, I think it's acceptable.
When I red the message quoted by Yin I supposed was by a flamer, not by MarkG, until he replyed uncovering the whole "can of worms"

.

I don't think all this is a good event for this forum, but I worry it's going worse and worse every time Yin and MarkG reply.

Please, STOP and cool down! It's almost like seeing two friends of mine insulting each other. It make me feel very, very sad

Almost as sad as would be a Civ III full of bugs

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Jeje2 · March 7, 2001, 07:24

quote:

Originally posted by MarkG on 03-07-2001 05:33 AM
as long as he is an apolyton moderator, his right to revive such issues as this article, no matter what good intention he may had, is not something acceptable by me or Dan.

Care to explain this in more detail?...

Are you here saying that since you (and possibly) moderators may receive information before official release, you consider it as a bad policy of you and moderators to talk:
a) about classified material (nonpublic)
b) negativly about them.

You also mentined some rules for a moderator.
(Rules are good, just as long it is in written form.)
Are these rules given in writing (or email) to each moderator?
Are these for us to examine? (Can't right now remember seeing it here.)

Do you have a place for moderators and you to talk privatly about moderating? (If not, there might be a need)

Just asking so there wouldn't be a need for next time

P.S. About mentioning it as an old topic. I don't remember reading it and since there has been some talk about the subject I do consider it as quite good and actual topic... (Btw. haven't read Morris article jet, only replys about yins departure)