Hello and goodbye to Might and Magic IX

Grumbold · April 8, 2002, 12:30

Well I can't tell you much about the game because it is going straight back to the shop for a refund and I haven't even completed the character generation yet. Why? The cheapskates have published a full price game with only a flimsy getting started pamphlet and the rest of the manual in .pdf format on the CD (UK edition, your milage may vary). If they're going to be cheap, so will I. I'll get my money back and pick it up for £9.99 in six months or so assuming nothing better is available.

FrustratedPoet · April 8, 2002, 15:58

but have you really not even played it yet? at least play it for an hour before you take it back, for all you know you could love it and you'll have forgotten all about the manual (or lack thereof) this time tomorrow.

anyway, maybe the developers spent all their time coding and balancing the game, ironing out bugs etc. etc. and didn't feel it was necessary to produce a huge manual.
what do you need from the manual anyway ... a list of the controls is vital, as is a run-down of the game concepts and a description of their implementation. what does the paper manual give you that the .pdf doesn't?

i hope this doesn't sound like a flame, because it isn't meant to be, but i really think you're over-reacting here.

btw, i haven't bought it or played it, so for all i know it could be total rubbish.

Immortal Wombat · April 8, 2002, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
what do you need from the manual anyway ... a list of the controls is vital, as is a run-down of the game concepts and a description of their implementation. what does the paper manual give you that the .pdf doesn't?

You can't read a pdf document on the crapper.

Kassiopeia · April 8, 2002, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

You can't read a pdf document on the crapper.

A real disadvantage...

Unless you have a laptop, of course.

General Ludd · April 8, 2002, 16:48

Funny, I prefer manuals to come in a pdf (provided the game supports alt-tabing) or built-in format. It's much less wasteful, and as long as I have the game I will have the manual - no losing it under a pile of all my other unused manuals.

Besides, a game shouldn't really require a manual - all you need is some good tool-tips, and a pdf manual for miscellaneous things which aren't that important.

FrustratedPoet · April 8, 2002, 18:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

You can't read a pdf document on the crapper.

and at least if the paper manual is no good you can wipe your arse with it while you're there.

Grumbold · April 8, 2002, 19:42

I've been playing it, and its an ok RPG but nothing special. Using a FPS engine (lithtech) for a RPG has made it quite good graphically but no better than Gothic or the recent MMORPGs and less functional in other ways than the previous engine specifically written for the MM6-8 games. For a game where skill and spell choices are important I dont ever want to have to Alt-Tab to find out what skill ranks I need to train up to get something and there's no way I'm printing off all those pages at greater cost to me in paper, ink and printer wear for a totally unwieldy A4 loose leaf mess. If it grows on me tomorrow I may keep playing, but I'm still going to return it because I don't believe I should encourage publishers to cut corners like this unless the game is so simple a quick reference sheet will give you all the info you need. The US version got the printed manual so its just 3DO-Europe that's being cheap.

Sarxis · April 8, 2002, 19:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

You can't read a pdf document on the crapper.

You know what's funny? I was just thinking, "Why don't people call it 'The Crapper' anymore?".

Seriously. You and me- we're in tune.

But I know what you mean Grumbold: it seems that more and more, publishers are getting cheap with manuals. For some games, I wonder why they even included one at all!

But thanx to the new phase of 'small box' publishing, you can pretty much kiss bulky, in-depth manuals good-bye.

Urban Ranger · April 9, 2002, 01:12

Yeah well, manuals will be getting thinner and dumber as time wears on.

Cookie Monster · April 9, 2002, 13:01

I agree with you Grumbold. The one thing I look forward to when purchasing a new game is reading a chunky manual. If computer game companies are going to be cheap like this then I'll be returning a lot of games too then.

FrustratedPoet · April 9, 2002, 13:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich
The one thing I look forward to when purchasing a new game is reading a chunky manual.

The one thing I look forward to when purchasing a new game is ... playing the game (*gasp*). If the game is bad I'll take it back and get a refund, but who cares about the manual? Well, apparently quite a few people care about it ... c'est la vie.

ixnay · April 9, 2002, 13:38

A good manual is nice, but it's no big loss if it's a PDF. As long as the game is fine, I'm happy.

Grumbold · April 9, 2002, 19:25

I think it depends on the game. There was certainly a big debate about it in the run up to Civ III and I believe the 'want paper' crowd were clearly in the majority. For games where there are tech trees, skill progression charts, production costs etc I think a manual is invaluable. Imagine trying to play an RTS where you were alt-Tab'ing out every ten minutes to check something. You'd totally lose any sense of immersion or pace in the game. Its certainly disrupting my enjoyment of the RPG.

The ability to be able to hit pause and read up some more details while sitting in the smallest room is another excellent advantage (and cheaper than buying a laptop!) I also like to get a head start by reading the manual on the bus or train home after purchasing so I'm primed to get going the minute the install is complete.

General Ludd · April 9, 2002, 21:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold
I think it depends on the game. There was certainly a big debate about it in the run up to Civ III and I believe the 'want paper' crowd were clearly in the majority. For games where there are tech trees, skill progression charts, production costs etc I think a manual is invaluable. Imagine trying to play an RTS where you were alt-Tab'ing out every ten minutes to check something. You'd totally lose any sense of immersion or pace in the game. Its certainly disrupting my enjoyment of the RPG.

That's what tool-tips and built in help are for.

Only the most complex and detailed of descriptions need to be in a manual, and those are things that you can afford to alt-tab for. (or read before playing)

Urban Ranger · April 10, 2002, 00:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Osweld
That's what tool-tips and built in help are for.

There is no practical difference between built-in help and PDF manuals. You still have to leave the game mentally.

Grumbold · April 10, 2002, 08:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

There is no practical difference between built-in help and PDF manuals. You still have to leave the game mentally.

well put.

General Ludd · April 10, 2002, 10:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

There is no practical difference between built-in help and PDF manuals. You still have to leave the game mentally.

And you would for a paper manual too.

I don't see how you could consider built in help to be distracting from the game, and looking through a book not.

Cookie Monster · April 10, 2002, 10:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

There is no practical difference between built-in help and PDF manuals. You still have to leave the game mentally.

Precisely

Having a manual by your side while still in the game helps keep the pace up. I agree that not every game needs a big manual, but the kind of games I buy are TBS or military TBS games. A clear and well detailed manual is a must and it has to be in paper form. You can have your little pdf files for your shooters or RPG's.

Besides, if you think you're being cool and modern by having a game with pdf manuals then your falling for the game manufacturers cheapness tricks. They are extracting that much more money from you and you happily accept it! Paper is being recycled on a world wide basis in most of the modern countries so the saving the trees argument is invalid. I want a nice paper manual with graphs and charts and a detailed explanation on how to play the game that I can read anywhere. Sure if it's in pdf format your killing trees by printing out your manual and you're spending your own money to do so, giving in to the game companies cheapness and helping them make more money off of you.

FrustratedPoet · April 10, 2002, 11:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich

Besides, if you think you're being cool and modern by having a game with pdf manuals then your falling for the game manufacturers cheapness tricks. They are extracting that much more money from you and you happily accept it!

come on, man, we're not that immature and shallow. anybody who thinks they're cool, for whatever reason, is a bit of an idiot, and to consider yourself cool because of something to do with a computer game is just plain crazy. computer games are a bit geeky, really, we all know it.

besides, i don't even think we're "falling" for anything when we buy a game with a pdf manual. a lot of the time it won't even say on the box that the manual is pdf (prolly should though), and the quality/lack of quality of the manual does not even figure in the spectrum of most people's considerations when they buy a game.

Quote:

Paper is being recycled on a world wide basis in most of the modern countries so the saving the trees argument is invalid

you're right, of course, but none of us were trying to make that argument in the first place, mostly because it is self-evident.

w00t! I am a l337 haxxor cos my manual is pdf! yours is paper u n00b!

anyway, you're right though, most games don't need a big chunky manual ... in fact, for those games that don't need one the companies are ripping us off by making us pay for one. let's face it though, they're gonna rip us off anyway, they have been for years, and there's very little we can do to stop it. unless we stop playing computer games, of course, but most of us are too addicted to stop.

Cookie Monster · April 10, 2002, 11:55

Quote:

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet

unless we stop playing computer games, of course, but most of us are too addicted to stop.

Amen to that brother!

I'm glad you were entertained by my arguements!

You know after reading what I wrote earlier it does sound a little funny! I'm a geek, addicted to gaming, and very passionate when it comes to my "hobby".

Good gaming....................

FrustratedPoet · April 10, 2002, 12:04

ahh, isn't this nice? a nice healthy debate and not a flame in sight.
bliss.

... *FP undergoes an incredible hulk-esque transformation* ...

WTF?!?! STFU!!! U SUCK!!!

sorry, that just slipped out. i couldn't help it.

*bg*

i hope you receive treatment for your addiction soon Dietrich.

on second thoughts, no i don't ... keep gaming, man!

EDIT: whoa! smilie overload there. it looks like i have an addiction of my own.

Cookie Monster · April 10, 2002, 13:20

General Ludd · April 10, 2002, 13:27

Could someone please explain how a tool-tip that pops-up when you hover your mouse cursor over something, or a civelopedia-esque help screen is more distracting/intrusive then looking through a book?

Grumbold · April 11, 2002, 06:38

If it can fit on a tooltip, then there is not a problem. Of course you won't get a tooltip to explain to you all the spells, what they do, what level of magic in five spheres you need to cast them, etc in the readily acessible way a chart will do. That's where a manual with appropriate charts, tables and indexes can be a big help. In the MM games, for example, you get level based skill points you can put anywhere you like so it really helps to have information to hand that gives you at-a-glance advice on which areas to concentrate on first. An alternative might be to build screens into the game that do the same thing (like Civ III has done with the tech tree) but the tool tips in MMIX are inadequate for that purpose. Right click on a skill book and it will say "this can be used to learn x skill at normal level". It does not say what the effects of that level (or further levels) of specialisation are, nor what character classes can learn to those higher levels. You have to learn the skill first, by which time its too late to give it to someone better suited. Doh!

Immortal Wombat · April 11, 2002, 17:35

It strikes me that by M&M IX, they might be under the impression that the majority of players will have learned the basics through playing M&M I-IIX.

Standup · April 13, 2002, 15:03

Personally i just find it easier to read hardcopy and scribble notes than browsing on the screen. At work i find i have to print out all but the shortest document or it just just doesn't sink in - sorry trees.
I also agree with the idea that full price games should come with everything needed to pay the game and that i shouldn't have to by the strategy guide, visit the website and make my own spreadsheets just to get by.

Maybe we're just hard done by in the UK as our copies of EU2 didn't have a map included. Nor did Baldur's Gate and i remember having to print off the commodities sheet for Railroad Tycoon 2 becuase off the 'net as it wasn't included.

Grumbold · April 16, 2002, 05:11

Doubly glad I got the US version of EU2, then. Planning your expansion is so much easier with a map. MM IX with no manual would be fine except they overhauled many of its mechanics (but the wrong ones IMO) by ditching the old spell schools based on fire,water, etc. There are the fewest available races or character classes since MM began. Lots of spells (and alchemy) are missing, others have become quite different, while 202 versions of a sword or club still remain.

PC Gamer UK gives the game 42% so I feel vindicated in my disapointment. Ok they didn't cite the .pdf manual as a major reason to knock off points but here's an extract of what they did:

"The entire game has the feel of shareware, looking shoddily put together and certainly three years out of date.
...
It just doesn't fit together properly. If you liked the previous titles in the series, you aren't going to like the new interface at all. And if you didn't like the previous titles in the series, you're fine to carry on as you are: entirely free of such unambitious fare."

Conversely they are reasonably complimentary about the HOMM IV product (76%, one of the higher scores this month) where the hero fighting and new spell system actually work properly.

I think part of the failing of MM IX is your inability to feel like a true hero. The monsters can hit for much more damage than you even when you are high level. Unlike previous MM games you can't water walk, fly, cast protection spells that last all day or nuke for massive damage. Not being able to do this means a game map that runs on rails, with few hidden secrets tucked away in obscure mountain valleys or on offshore islands. Having fought my way to level 30 before getting totally bored and having got almost all the spells my casters can ever get and some artifact weapons and armour, I feel totally underwhelmed by my team capabilities.

Standup · April 19, 2002, 17:59

Grumbold,
No manual in HOMM4 in case you were thinking of buying it at full price. There's a small note book that essentially says play the tutorial its all self explanatory and then you have to print the .pdf.
Curious to know if US copies had a full manual ??

Grumbold · April 22, 2002, 05:56

Yup I noticed that. Even the town building chart is .pdf only, thanks to the misers at 3DOEurope. I did consider taking it back too, but HOMM IV was *just* good enough to keep playing beyond the 10 day return limit. The US version got it all in glossy colour print, of course!