Barbarian activity question.

geofelt · April 9, 2002, 15:47

What determines the level of barb activity? In some games, they appear in good strength, frequently, and in some I never see them at all. Is there a random level picked at the start of every game? I also notice that if you have great wall, the level seems to be much lower.

rah · April 9, 2002, 16:16

The main determining factor is the barb level selected at the beginning of the game. Raging delivering the most.

But during the game it is dependent on where the open areas are. If you have a tight empire. (cities covering all your territory) you will only see barbs at the border or those that come by boat.

If you have a reasonably good size open area in your empire, it will become a barb spawning hell. Which if set up properly is a good thing, if you're into collecting ransom.

If your empire is tight and there's lots of open room by an AI, you will see very few barbs, even on Raging.

RAH

DaveV · April 10, 2002, 08:13

My experience has been that barbs tend to show up repeatedly in the same places. I've seen others refer to barb "spawn points". If you're near a spawn point, you'll see lots of barbs; if you're not on the sea lanes and pack in your cities, you may go a whole game with no barbs.

I think if you're in the right (wrong?) place, it can make restless look like raging, and vice versa.

geofelt · April 10, 2002, 16:38

Sometimes they appear in pairs right next to my capitol as early as b3250. I like to found my first city on the coast with whales. Oher times they do not show up until much later. In addition to the initial raging selection, is there some random dato of first appearance?

Scouse Gits · April 11, 2002, 03:32

I believe that the first 16 turns are barb free (except from huts) that would agree with your date of 3250BC

War4ever · April 12, 2002, 13:47

yes the 3250 date seems to be one to be weary of...in our games someone usually says "its 3250 do you know where your children are"

there have been freak occurances where barbs have shown up earlier....i believe if you tip a hut and get barbs....they can then show up anytime after that.....

raging/restless....funny one...i too have experienced the mass of hordes on restless...and not on raging....nothing worse than losing your second set or your newly built third city....and b/c you explore like a madman....you have alot of open space and can never get those sets back there b/c of the barbs.....

funny thing is that is always where your opponent comes from as well.....

someone explain to me how a barb legion comes from a hut when no one has iron working yet.....this one still mystifies me....i thought barbs came out like NON units do....ie that tech must be discovered by someone on the board ??

rah · April 12, 2002, 15:24

"its 3250 do you know where your children are"
Gee, wonder who says that

The early legion has always mystified me also. I know in a lot of those games, NO ONE had iron yet.

RAH

Mercator · April 12, 2002, 17:26

Early barbarians don't need any requirements. Here's what Leon Marrick's Advanced Scenario Design says (in turn taken from Harlan Thompson's Advanced Scenario making Ideas:



Piratical Barbarians

Early                    Middle                    Late

Archers                  Crusaders/Knights         Dragoons

Triremes                 Caravel                   Frigate



Frontier Barbarians

Early                    Middle                    Late            Modern

Legion (villages only)   Elephants (uprising only) Cannon          Artillery

Horsemen (uprising only) Knights (villages only)   Musketeers      Partisans

                                                                   Fanatics

It doesn't say anything about specific requirements about when these ages start (certain techs, I presume).
The Early age doesn't need any requirements, these units appear from the start of the game. As far as my experience goes, Legions appear from huts, and only on the surrounding squares with higher defense values, but I'm sure there have been more thorough "studies" on this, right?
So there is no direct link between barbarian units and their "official" prerequisite techs, they just appear after certain trigger techs.

DrFell · April 12, 2002, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
someone explain to me how a barb legion comes from a hut when no one has iron working yet.....this one still mystifies me....i thought barbs came out like NON units do....ie that tech must be discovered by someone on the board ??

Yep it's the barbarian 'ages' system. Legions only appear on mountains or hills when you get hut barbs.

Julius Brenzaida · April 15, 2002, 10:12

From what I know :
1) In raging hordes, every hut has something in it, never empty.
2) Barbarians never appear from a hut before you found your first city.
3) There is never more than one barbarian unit from a hut before 1500bc, (50 turns of play in deity).
4) When you only have 1 city, your defender always win.
5) The AI has a bonus against the barbs.

From what I believe :
1) You are never attacked at the core of your empire by barbarians
2) Uprising tend to disappear at the end of the game, if you settle everywhere.
3) The more power you have, the more likely you are to be attacked.
4) There can't be more than an appearance in each turn.
5) There can't be more than a certain number of barbarian groups at each time (6 or seven ?)

From what I complain because I am a bad loser :
1) They always attack me first, not the AI.
2) They know which of my cities are undefended.
3) The barb leader always disapear before I catch him.

Scouse Gits · April 15, 2002, 11:01

Most of our combined wisdom concerning barbarians is enshrined in William Keenan's 'Barbarian Paper' -- if only I could find the damn thing!!!

SG[1]

DaveV · April 15, 2002, 11:29

a link to the barbarian paper

Scouse Gits · April 15, 2002, 12:27

Thanks Dave ...

Marquis de Sodaq · April 15, 2002, 12:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida
4) There can't be more than an appearance in each turn.

You can have 2 appearances if one is by land, the second by sea.

Campo · April 15, 2002, 13:18

Quote:

You can have 2 appearances if one is by land, the second by sea.

Your Horseman on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm,
Through every MiddleCiv village and farm,
For the country folk to be up in arm.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

That's from a poem called "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere" by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Boston and New York were in Civil Disorder and SG's ancestors were trying to quell it with musketeers.

Scouse Gits · April 17, 2002, 14:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida
3) There is never more than one barbarian unit from a hut before 1500bc, (50 turns of play in deity).

The position of the single Barb can be predicted. Starting from 4000BC (assuming you have founded your capital) he will appear on the square east of the hut. In 3950BC this will change to the square SE of the hut...3900BC it will be south of the hut...and continues in a clockwise pattern around the compass points.

If you have a unit on the square where the Barb should appear it will move around. On a few occasions when the hut is near water tiles the barb may disappear.

---------------

SG(2)

War4ever · April 17, 2002, 15:46

really....does this mean that you can block the barb from coming out....and say get a different result?

Scouse Gits · April 17, 2002, 20:58

No...the result is always a Barb. If you have a unit on the square where he is due to appear he will skip around to another tile. The early Barbs from huts are always single horses, except when they appear on a mountain, then it's a Legion.
----------------
SG(2)

Straybow · April 18, 2002, 02:44

On huge maps with huts late in the game it's a good idea to hunt with armies of Dips. They can surround the hut except for a few tiles, then bribe the units that appear. Limit the number of open adjacent tiles to the number of units you can afford to bribe, and you're set.

War4ever · April 19, 2002, 19:37

Scouse Gits.....later in the game is it conceivable then that if you covered every square....that you would get an empty hut on one that would generally contain barbs or would the result be something different???

Scouse Gits · April 19, 2002, 21:18

Straybow - you can afford to hut hunt with eight dips?! We can't!
War - we play deity/raging - we don't get empty huts

The SGs thoroughly lubricated

Marquis de Sodaq · April 19, 2002, 21:41

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
Scouse Gits.....later in the game is it conceivable then that if you covered every square....that you would get an empty hut on one that would generally contain barbs or would the result be something different???

I think you'd get the same result as a barbarian hut on a one-tile island - a message about barbarians, but none actually appear.

Scouse Gits · April 20, 2002, 07:26

War ... I understand your question now! We had a bottle too many last night.

I agree with Marquis...but I have not tested it.

-----------------
SG(2)

geofelt · April 20, 2002, 19:56

Hunt for huts on the poles. If you get barbs, they seem to disappear without attacking.
I have stopped tipping huts after founding my first city. I seem to get more than my share of barbs, and is not worth it. Instead, I tip them when they are in a city radius so I get only good things.

finbar · April 21, 2002, 21:34

Barbs out of a hut will sometimes head off in another direction without attacking. Particularly if you've opened the hut with a diplomat. I have no idea why.

War4ever · April 21, 2002, 21:59

hehe Scouse Git(s) thats ok...i rarely play anything less than deity raging hordes myself...anything else would be uncivilised

Has anyone tested this out...whether or not it would change the sequence of huts.....to say money or a tech... i suppose a unit is possible too...

or do you get the barb message and then "poof" they disappear as Marquis has suggested?

I do know that opening a hut from different angles produces different results

testing 1-2-3

rah · April 22, 2002, 09:59

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
Has anyone tested this out...whether or not it would change the sequence of huts.....to say money or a tech... i suppose a unit is possible too...
or do you get the barb message and then "poof" they disappear as Marquis has suggested?

I do know that opening a hut from different angles produces different results

testing 1-2-3

You get the barb message and then poof, is my experience.

What were the results of the different angles? Since it changes when you reload, they must have done a heck of a lot of tests to show significant difference on that.

RAH

Marquis de Sodaq · April 22, 2002, 12:38

IIRC, the only direction testing involved bribery cost. In that case, the direction from which your diplo/spy approaches (in relation to the target's capitol) does affect the cost.

I suspect the rumour of direction affecting hut outcomes is nothing more than a rumour. As you point out, that would take a mind-numbing number of reloads...

Julius Brenzaida · April 23, 2002, 10:10

Good question this of the angle of the approach of the hut

What's more, it is oubvious that the terrain on the hut has some effect too, but which one precisely

geofelt · April 23, 2002, 12:06

The outcome of huts is random, I suspect that the angle of approach theory is just statistical variation. That said, I seem to get a premonition before I get an advanced tribe.