it's here: 1.21F PATCH DETAILS

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Shadowlord
It sounds like they sure got a lot accomplished. And I look forward to more.

For those of you that are complaining they haven't put enough in yet, I ask you this:

Would you prefer they added half of what they are planning, and got it tested and released, so you had half of it to play with while they worked on the rest, or that they didn't release any patches at all until they were completely done fixing the game, hm?

What I would prefer -- is that they wouldn't release the product with an editor that isn't as powerful/useful as it was in previous products, and test the features they ARE releasing the game with to make sure they work.

[Deathwalker]

What does the HP thing mean?

[Hurricane]

I would really like to know how the AI trade has been changed. The readme is too cyptical to give any clear answers. Guess I have to wait for the chat, tho.

I also would have liked to see longbowmen and other units disappear from the city build list. Or why not make it Win2000-like, so that only units/buildings you build a lot show up (others hidden in a sub-tree).

[Hurricane]

* Fixed bug involving extra movement costs if the unit can't
advance after combat.

I´m not sure I like this. This makes blitz units even better. The german Panzer will really rock now. On the other hand, Cavalry/Knight (even horsemen) armies will now be useful, too.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Nemo

Still no option to make nuclear weapons kill units in city (or is this covered under the new option for bombardment kill ability?)

Nukes kill units good now

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Originally posted by planetfall
Hopefully this was for cities you planted in the wrong place and want to abandon. If works sure beats trying to force a settler from a pop 2 city or a worker from size one. That method seldom worked.

Maybe I misunderstand, but the method ALWAYS works, just as long as you make sure your city doesn't grow anymore (no extra food production).

AJ

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Having read all news related to newest patch, I kind of regret that most changes seem to apply to the editor (hardly use it myself, very good for many of others though).

The changed tech trading needs clarification: will players be able to research competitively on emperor/deity from the ancient era on?

The Emerged noted that the correct starting locations for earth maps (promised several months ago) don't seem to be defaulted yet. Why??? Or am I missing something?

Martock noted that we still can't upgrade units in armies.

Hurricane stated that outdated units should disappear. Yes, they should. However sometimes a player doesn't have the resources to build more modern units, so occasionally you might want to build them. Compromise: forbid the domestic nag to start producing outdated units. That way you don't have to waste (stupid) time changing the production lists.

AJ

[Bill9999]

[SIZE=1]
Hm, I didn't quote the Disband City option, but it's the most important addition, I think. Does this mean that I can right-click any city, anytime and disband it as though it were being razed? Do I get anything back (most probably, a Settler)?

Hmm...A faster way to clear jungles?

Take a settler, found a city in the middle of a jungle, next turn disband him, move him one space over, found a city, disband him, move him one space over........

Wouldn't that make starts near a jungle easier!

Bill9999

[Hagbart]

Originally posted by Bill9999


Hmm...A faster way to clear jungles?

Take a settler, found a city in the middle of a jungle, next turn disband him, move him one space over, found a city, disband him, move him one space over........

Wouldn't that make starts near a jungle easier!

Bill9999

Yes you have a point here! That's great, I hate jungle! Let's hope the AI don't exploit this too much!

[player1]

Originally posted by Hagbart
Yes you have a point here! That's great, I hate jungle! Let's hope the AI don't exploit this too much!

I think that human would be the one who'll exploit this.

P.S.
Exept if Soren has already fixed this exploit.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Deathwalker
What does the HP thing mean?

Ehrr... Hit Points, of course. Where do you lived for the last ten years? A sad place without a strategic game available?

(Just kidding)

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Bill9999


Hmm...A faster way to clear jungles?

Take a settler, found a city in the middle of a jungle, next turn disband him, move him one space over, found a city, disband him, move him one space over........

Wouldn't that make starts near a jungle easier!

Bill9999

some people are just always exploiting the game, no wonder we need so many patches!!

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Bill9999


Hmm...A faster way to clear jungles?

Take a settler, found a city in the middle of a jungle, next turn disband him, move him one space over, found a city, disband him, move him one space over........

Wouldn't that make starts near a jungle easier!

Bill9999

Disbanding doesn't give you the settler back. It just disbands the city. A very exensive way to clear jungle quickly.

[Hagbart]

Its abandon, not disband.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Shadowlord
For those of you that are complaining they haven't put enough in yet, I ask you this:

Would you prefer they added half of what they are planning, and got it tested and released, so you had half of it to play with while they worked on the rest, or that they didn't release any patches at all until they were completely done fixing the game, hm?

I'm not complaining about this patch, I like the Firaxis decision to fix the game to a proper level.
I only like to mention that a good open beta can do a lot for early bug fixing, balancing and general improvement to the game.

Every round of patches is an extreme misure that should be considered when a reasonable effort has been put into delivering a complete game from start.

I would be happy to give a try to a modular game, from a company that'll release the first version of the game with basic functions to show and support the main design decision of the game and a sketched graphic.

That version of the game (basically the game engine) should be distributed free on the net, just to grab player attention. Then, after a round of feedback the company should start to fill the first release with modular expansions (this time selling them at an acceptable cost). Next feeback turn, next round of expansions.

Advantages: more solid test of few function every time, easy centralized no-regression test, best use of fan base suggestions (more focused), some expansion can be optional (the game still work without them), e.g. a more detailed combat model can be used instead of a simplified one, ditto for buildings and resources or trading.

The tactical level AI is boundled with every module, to manage the related features and objects, while a strategical level AI is improved at the "game engine" main module to interface the tactical level AI.

I know isn't an easy task to develop and manage separate module, but the same was believed for advanced game graphics until id started to sell Doom and Quake engines to everyone. (making quite a lot of money, IIRC).

I wonder if a similar concept is considered in Vel's project...

[kroym]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS

- Issues with upgrading and fortifying have been fixed (I think that was missing from the readme). If units were upgraded while fortified they will stay fortified after upgrading.

WONDERFUL!!!! I've been wearing out my "f" key after upgrades!

[SpencerH]

An alternative to constantly clearing jungles is to change their value with the editor. The game values are bogus, jungle is virtually a desert by firaxis recconing. Give them 2 food and 1 shield units. Your cities can grow in the jungle but occasionally get cut back due to disease.

[Brutus66]

Still no option to turn off pollution. I can't beleive that I am the only one who finds that aspect of the game to be tedious as hell.

[WarpStorm]

Why is it tedious? My horde of pollution workers deal with it automatically whenever a pollution square pops up. There probably should be an option to trun it off if you don't believe that pollution is a problem though. I wouldn't use it, but to each his own.

[Brutus66]

That's silly. If I build workers, I do so because there's things like roads, irrigation, mines, etc. to build. When I get to the railroad stage where all the improvements I need are done and there's nothing left for them to do, I would rather have them rejoin the population of the cities than chase pollution.
It's just micromanagement that I don't enjoy.

[Thrawn05]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK

Thank you for compressing the save files!! They are a lot smaller now and don't clutter my HD. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

[Ethelred]

Unfortunatly the compressed files don't work in Gramphos' save game editor. They aren't ZIP files either as far as I can tell.

[Malthis]

Originally posted by Brutus66
Still no option to turn off pollution. I can't beleive that I am the only one who finds that aspect of the game to be tedious as hell.

You're not....I hate gross pollution

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Unfortunatly the compressed files don't work in Gramphos' save game editor. They aren't ZIP files either as far as I can tell.

Well, I don't use that editor, so it won't bother me.

I'm just glad they actualy compressed the file, they were too big for most games today IMHO.

[notyoueither]

Actually, I think a bunch of them are figuring out the compression. It is supposedly an off the shelf solution that Gramphos can hopefully figure out. $5 says his saved game editor is back in business within 2 weeks.

[Grrr]

I am willing to bet that to. The thing I don't like about the compression is that it bogs down the Autosave too much.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Brutus66
Still no option to turn off pollution. I can't beleive that I am the only one who finds that aspect of the game to be tedious as hell.

Isn't there a way to Edit terrain so that Global Warming has no effect? yea, but the ugly orange squares keeping popping up. I want to be able to toggle off that Culture Flipping nonsense.

[Spec]

..........and no specific start points.......

omg

Firaxis: "Oh, we're working on it!"

Yea right.

Spec.

[Skanky Burns]

Still no option to turn off pollution.

One quick way to basically "turn off" pollution is to go into the editor and give temples the same abilities that recycling centers and mass transit have. Then every city with a temple (which should be just about all of them) don't have pollution.
Of course, this does require using the editor.
Your other option is to capture enough workers and use shift-a or similar to make them automatically clean up pollution.

Actually, I think a bunch of them are figuring out the compression. It is supposedly an off the shelf solution that Gramphos can hopefully figure out. $5 says his saved game editor is back in business within 2 weeks.

People would have to be insane to go against your bet!
Agreed, Gramphos will crack it within 2 weeks.

[Barnacle Bill]

First, I'd like to commend and thank Firaxis for continuing to support & improve Civ3!

Howver, the key thing which I think needs to be fixed, which kills my enjoymment of the game and causes me not to play it currently, is AI behavior regarding borders & colonization.

How it works now :
[list=1][*]AI violates borders constantly. You have to nag them to stop. After the 3rd nag, if they are not willing to go to war, the offending units teleport out of your territory. However, if they manage to get far enough toward the other side of your territory by that time, in effect they teleport across your territory instead of back where they came from. Also, if you forget to nag one turn then the 3 turn count is reset.
[*]AI nags you constantly about "border violations" at sea when your ships are sailing by.
[*]AI plants cities all over the place with no regard to connecting their territory. If you have the tiniest open space in the middle of your territory, they will plant a city there. Sure, it will probably defect to you eventually, but what if you didn't want a city there (the new ability to abandon a city maybe solves that one, but it is still a big nuisance)?
[*]Borders move around due to culture & cities being founded. This is unrealistic - the US can't grab a chunk of Canada by building a city just this side of the border.[/list=1]

How I'd like the next patch to make it work :
[list=1][*]Your land units of any type (even non-combat units like settlers/workers) cannot enter a land tile which is in the territory of another civ with which you are not at war. If you want to go into their territory, you have to declare war first. If they were in neutral territory but now due to a border move they are in another Civ's territory, then they teleport to the nearest tile which is still neutral or belongs to their Civ (ties between neutral tiles being in a direction closer to the nearest tile which is their territory).
[*]On the scale of a Civ map, real life recognized territorial waters are much less than 1 tile even on a 256 x 256 world map. Therefore, borders should stop at the coast - water tiles belong to nobody (but this should not affect the ability of a city to use a water tile within its radius). If you are not at war with a given Civ, your ships would be able to pass right through theirs. This also means for a land tile to be in your borders due to a given city, there must be a land path between it and the city in question through other tiles which are in your borders due to that city.
[*]The AI should generally never plant a city anyplace on the same continent as one of its existing cities unless it could be expected to like up with the borders of an existing city once the borders of the new city (and the old one if it has not yet done so) have expanded to a radius of 2. In other words, AI would never found a city more than 5 land tiles from an existing city (or 3 tiles from its existing borders, whichever is greater) unless founding its first city on that continent. An exception to this rule would be made for grabbing resource tiles. The AI should also place a high priority on building culture until the borders link up. Yes, I know that "sometimes" it makes sense to plant cities farther away, but the AI cannot be made smart enough to tell when this makes sense and when it doesn't, so its behavior overall will be improved by this rule (which would not affect what humans can do).
[*]Once a tile is in the borders of a given Civ, it should stay in that Civ's borders unless a city changes ownership or is razed/abandoned. When a city changes ownership or is razed/abandoned, ownership of all tiles that were within its cultural radius should then be re-evaluated. No tile should ever revert to neutral due to a city changing hands (as opposed to being razed/abandoned), though, despite the reduction in culture of a conquered city - the city would just be at a disadvantage in competition for tile control with nearby higher culture cities. The incorporation of neutral tiles into borders as the culture of a city grows would still work as before.[/list=1]