Railways unbalanced and wonders on the map (?)

[Phutnote]

When I play civ II, I usually build up a nice little empire and then, towards the end game, connect it to opponents using rail lines and then send forth swarms of howitzers to devour entire nations in a single turn.

By the 20th century, at deity level, entire continents are blanketed in rail lines. Every ground unit can move anywhere and everywhere in the space of a single turn, from one end of the continent to the other, without expending movement points, and then attack to boot, whether it is a mechanized infantry unit or a phalanx.

At the same time that primitive phalanx units can cross continents via rail (or 100 plus howitzers in a single turn), you cannot move a stealth bomber squadron from one side of the continent to the other in one turn (on a large maps and a large winding continent it can take 2 or 3 turns, which equals 2 or 3 years!) much less support the cavalry unit's attack. There is air relocation from airport to airport of ground units, but nothing like that for air units, which seems a little odd.

I find it unbalances the game to have railways so powerful. The AI coats the land with a solid web of them. You cannot even see the terrain with the zigzag and crisscross of railway lines, and there is no limit to the capacity these railways can carry.

I would suggest that railways have carrying capacities or some other kind of limit on their use. You need locomotives to move units via rail, and there are limited numbers of locomotives. At some point you're going to run out of railway cars, so moving 100 or 200 howitzers shouldn't be possible in one turn. If there was a carrying capacity, it would limit the number of units you could move until you invested in more locomotives. 10 locomotives, 10 units moved unlimited distance by rail. 20 locos, 20 units. And so on.

Not the most elegant solution I suppose, but perhaps some kind of refinement/modification could be done to rail lines to make them less powerful and free up some of the earth from their ubiquitous web of metal mesh.

On another topic, would anyone like to see the Pyramids or other large wonders on the map, either in the city square or placed adjacent to it? They are massive structures, and seeing them on the map would help give it character. The great wall of China, the Hanging Gardens, Hagia Sophia, Colossus, Statue of Liberty, even the UN buildings could be depicted on the map. I'd love to see some of these edifices as landmarks on the game map.

Pharaoh Phutnote

[Zanzin]

I agree. I find it infuriating the time it takes to move your air untis around. Especically in this day and age when the US B-2 bomber can be around the world and back in 24 hours!! Such is the nature of turn based play I guess!!

As for seeing wonders on the map.....not such a bad idea. Bit of eye candy I guess

[Roman]

Let me add my set of movement complaints to the pot.

Basically, I agree with what the original poster said, but I don't see an easy solution to the problem, so I guess it will have to remain the same.

What I personally abhore is how missiles work in Civ2. Nuclear and cruise missiles can for example be launched and than land in another city ready for later use! This is clearly ridiculous. I propose that instead they don't move on the main map at all or are represented by ground units and instead have a "range" and can basically preform a paradrop within this "range".

[Crustacian]

Yes, and how is it that an entire enemy army "jumps" on the foriegn RR system with no problem and zips around on it as if they were home?

You don't even have to stop to capture a train, let alone hope there are plenty of enemy trains sitting empty, fueled, and ready to go in the area they invade at!

And how do triremems go "boom"?

[Jeje2]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 04-08-2001 11:08 AM Yes, and how is it that an entire enemy army "jumps" on the foriegn RR system with no problem and zips around on it as if they were home?

What's the problem?
Most countries use the same trackwidth, so just use your own train. Today many trains go fromn one country to another...


"Luckily" former Sovjet (and Finland) uses a little wider trackwidth than rest of Europe. In other case Hitler could just have driven his armies to Moscov in summer 1942 with German trains, as Civ models it today


P.S. This message is a bad joke

[Ilkuul]

I agree that railroads at present in Civ2 are rather unrealistic, but I have to admit that I like them! Leave them as they are, I would say.

But I do like your second point, Phutnote -- Wonders visible on the map. That would not only add to the attractiveness of the game, but would also make it a lot easier to see where the Wonders are if you want to capture them!

As to fix air movement, air units should have unlimited movement and a number of attacks. Your civ creates an airbase "range", generated by airports, airfields and even aircraft carriers. Flying around within the "range" is unlimited! You must end your turn in an airbase/airfield/aircraft carrier or crash and burn. Once outside of you "range", you get the familiar movement/fuel limits... get back in range before your fuel runs out or crash. You can continue running missions untill your out of attacks. Planes can also be given orders to intercept, the planes will intercept and engage any enemy in "range", provided they have attacks remaining (1 attack per intercept).

As for rails, I think it's fine as is provided your moving in your own territory... charge movement of say 1/10 or 1/5 moving outside your borders, any no movement bonous greater than that for roads when moving in enemy territory.

Visable Wonders... absoulutly I agree, BUT I'm not sure it can be done... afterall you only have a few tiles around your map, and wonders would block the view of tile improvements... besides what if you build alot of wonders at he same city? And how to you represent non-arctitectual wonders? What about the Great wall? I think that an Icon showing a city has wonders should be on the main map, but I'm afraid anything more would not be practical.


[This message has been edited by Trachmir (edited April 08, 2001).]

[Phutnote]

Thnx for the replies.

I agree there is no easy fix for the rail thing, I just find it unbalances the game. It's just too easy to wipe out the other civs, even on Diety level, once you have the system down, using masses of howitzers and some stealth fighters to clear enemy bomber blocks away. Hopefully there will be other checks in Civ III. Maybe I just hate seeing the terrain submerged beneath those damn ugly rail lines.

And that's a very good point about having wonders on the map: if you have them all in one city. That would make things difficult. I was thinking the wonders could occupy a corner of a tile or be incorporated into the city graphic, which might work, but as you point out, 'wonder' cities often have 4 or 5 of the things!


Oh well. Another great idea crushed by the weight of reality. =)

As for the wonders like the Cure for Cancer, I wasn't thinking of anything to show it's presence. I was only interested in the big building wonders, as they might add some zest to the map. Like tourist destinations, they make certain locations in the world more interesting. But an icon indicating wonders are present . . . now that's a good idea that has the benefit of being practical as well!

Phutnote

[Lancer]

Just have it take a turn to board and get off the train. Anyone that's moved armor by train know it takes time.

Also, I think that you should be able to build a track destroyer unit like the Germans did in WW2. This unpleasant piece of equipment rolled down the track, tearing it up in its wake! It was very difficult to fix after that. Generally track damaged by other types of units should be easy to fix. Basicly they just blow holes in it. The track destroyer should be able to totally demolish two or three squares of track per turn, and it would have to be totally rebuilt. Other units should be able to only damage one per turn, and a worker should be able to fix it in a turn.

[Father Beast]

check the "Improved Road and Rail Rules" in the EC3 list. it's in Related threads, if you can find that.

seeing wonders on the map? been suggested before, I still like it. got my vote.

[Chronus]

I still think railroads should have a 1/6 movement cost. This is basically twice the movement range/speed of roads (which can remain at 1/3 the movement cost).

No, it isn't perfect (I think coming up with a perfect fit is near impossible) but it gives a good, overall "rule" that is easy to use/remember. Units can no longer travel the length of a large continent in one turn, and howitzers can't land and attack some interior city that's miles away in one turn.

[JellyBean]

I like Trachmir's idea about air units, letting them have unlimited movement within range of your cities and airbases. Letting them have unlimited attacks seems a bit extreme, but I suppose it makes sense - if there are enemies within range of your aircraft then you could just keep flying sorties, in much less than a year, until either the target or the aircraft were destroyed. This would have the side effect of making aircraft carriers very much more useful, for more than just staging attacks inland.

Chalk me up as another one who'd like to see wonders reflected in the city icons, but wonders what would happen if there were more than one in a city.

[Maccabee2]

I would vote for *physical* wonder icons (like architectural/structural wonders) with one caveat. It must not infringe upon the customizability of the game. Keep It Simple, Soldiers.
I would also like to take this opportunity to publicly mourn the abscence of wonder movie "cut-ins". The wonder movies from Civ II were (and still are) the most addictive part of that game for me. They were artfully done. They spoiled me to the point that computer-graphic little movies (ala CTP) leave me yawning and disappointed.
Civ2's movies, with authentic scenes from wonders wherever possible, accompanied by real music compositions from that culture and era (when possible) gave a stunning feeling of relating to the "wonder" felt in that age for the then-new achievement. It gave me a feeling of real accomplishment and leant much to the imagination for the game. It immersed me in the fantasy more than any unit graphics could.
I still use that game to help teach my daughter the real meaning of "civilization" in history and different cultures.

oops, bad wording on my part...

I meant to say let aircraft have unlimited movement but a set number of attacks... 2,3,4,etc. I did not mean unlimited attacks!