Computer Gaming World CIVIII preview

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

If you were quick, you might have noticed that I alluded to this (magazine features) in an earlier thread. We were told the CGW issue would hit newsstands towards the end of April, so this is quite a surprise =)

If you've got it now, all the better for you. For those of you frothing at the mouth for screenshots, this will probably just whet your appetite, but nonetheless it should be worth the cover price.

Re: the quality of the screenshots: you're talking about images that were about 1.5" big in the magazine, then scanned in and blown up, so naturally they aren't going to look that great. =) I'm not sure if we're going to wait until the CGW issue hits the streets officially before we release screenshots or not, I'll let you know either way.

It's also worth stating just for the record that there is still a lot that needs to be put into the game, and things are changing all the time, so the standard disclaimer ("this product is in development and may look differently when it's finished") is very much in force.

Anyway, hopefully this has put to rest some of your fears about the game. As I've said for some time now, I think this game is going to be the best Civ game ever.


Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.

[Shadowstrike]

The screenshots are amazing. Hands down. The only thing is that the units are a bit small, but that could mean a different combat system. It would be neat if we could actually see the little guys duke it out, as long as that didn't distract the player too much. The isometric view has stayed, and it looks pretty good. Knowing how much the graphics can change in a work like this, I'd say that this game will do well. (I remember seeing the preview for SMAC and thinking "OMG, this looks horrible!", and then when I actually bought the game I was thinking "Amazing!")

Some Questions:

Is the city background on the page with the title "Extra Dimensions of CIVILIZATION" the new city view?

Will the 3-D map (a la SMAC) return?

Will the city radius grow?

[Zanzin]

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 03-27-2001 10:43 PM As I've said for some time now, I think this game is going to be the best Civ game ever. Dan Magaha Firaxis Games, Inc.

Don't worry Dan, we never doughted you!

[yin26]

quote: My concern is that nobody has said anything negative yet.

Actually, I did. But I'll make it clearer:

I am NOT impressed with these screens at all. They look worse than Civ2 if you ask me. Of course, I am banking on two things:

1. A blown-up scanned image distorting things.
2. These are still shots of a alpha or early beta at best.

I can only imagine that the graphics will be much improved over what we see here or the let-down will be severe. And anybody who's played these sorts of games knows that those pretty units you see in their full glory on a website don't look nearly as impressive when shrunk down and pasted on the actual playing field.

So I'll reiterate amidst all these over-excited posts that I see nothing here to be so excited about. I do believe, however, this is just an ulgy first showing.

(...some of the gameplay elements sounds promising, though, which is more than half the battle...)
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 28, 2001).]

[GaryGuanine]

I don't care about the graphics. It could look like the old Avalon Hill boardgame, for all I care, as long as we get the great Sid game play. The ideas there sound great. We're all debating things heavily in other threads, but we all know that whatever we suggest will pale in comparison to the beauty of the design in the end. When has Sid ever disappointed?

Gary

[Zanzin]

Good point Gary )

[Sparky]

Thanks Shuttles.

I think they look alright. Reminds me of CTP. I don't see the 3D terrain I heard about, but I don't terribly mind. The city view concerns me the most: most of the screen is the city and countryside, in other words a pretty, but not utilitarian view. All the info is in small boxes at eh bottom. This is very different than Civ 1 and 2, and more like SMAC. I'm worried, though, that Civ 3 is set up to have the same problem civ 1 and 2 did: highlighting garrisson. In both predecessors, if you had too many units in a city, you could only select the first 15 or so. The garrisson menu ignored the rest of them (I actually think TOT fixed this). But if you look at Civ 3's garrisson list in the lower left of the city screen, it looks awfully small...

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by shuttleswo on 03-27-2001 05:33 PM http:\\webpages.ursinus.edu\jshuttlesworth

The link isn't working

[yin26]

Actually, I thought that Gettysburg! looked pretty damn good AND had Sid's stellar gameplay. I expect no less from Civ 3...as in, would be very disappointed otherwise.

[Kull]

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-28-2001 12:00 AM I am NOT impressed with these screens at all. They look worse than Civ2 if you ask me.

Yin26: Perhaps this will assuage some of your fears: (From CGW)

"The moment Firaxis inked the deal with Hasbro, Meier and his design team started playing Civ3. They replaced the art assets of Alpha Centauri with crude Civ-style placeholders, and modified the rules to reflect their design decisons for this new game."

To me, this means that the terrain is probably going to see some additional evolution. If you noticed, the terrain shot in cgw1.gif includes those funky half-moon symbols that identify grassland w/shield. I'd be surprised if those survive into Civ3.

Raingon: Culture will have several attributes, but the most significant seems to involve assimilation of conquered cities. If your civ doesn't have a cosmopolitan world view, the unhappiness penalties will kill you! This will quell all the Alexander-types who devote all their resources to the military and go for all-out conquest. Their empires will collapse in rebellion!

the diploamt: Look more closely at the screen. It looks like the heads on the left are advisors! And I'm pretty sure they offer city-specific advice.

One other interesting comment:

"Even the long-standing tradition of random barbarian attacks has been tweaked. The unwashed hordes now have encampments on the map. Destroy one and they will reappear where the fog of war is in place"

[GaryGuanine]

Cool about the barbarians. I love the barbarians in Civ2. I always played with them on the highest setting. Those SMAC mindworms were retarded, but I love the barbarians! I hope "Raging Hordes" means even more in Civ3!

Gary

[Kull]

Henrik: Copy the link directly into your browser. It didn't work for me either when I just clicked it. You could also try these:

1) Terrain

2) City View

3) Military Advisor

4) City Management
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited March 28, 2001).]

[yin26]

Kull:

That's what it looks like to me, too. Mainly crude placeholders while they figure out the gameplay elements. I can't believe all this excitement over alpha graphics! My lord...

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-27-2001 07:50 PM Well, the screenshots still look awfully rough. I can see why Dan wouldn't rush to post them. Encouraging, however.

actually, seeing early images would be great for both us,cause we all love seeing screenshots , and firaxis, cause it would show all the big improvments that are beeing done from the first stages to the finishing of the development...

[Kull]

Here's one specific nugget of info on Diplomacy:

"Civ3 sports some nice improvements here that make negotiations more conversational and grant you more latitude, such as the right to deny enemy units passage on your roads."

As if Sid needs us to lionize him further, there's this:

"For Meier, playing a game is the most critical aspect of its design. Without it, he argues, the original classic would never have attained its lofty status. It's dogma at Firaxis -- everyone plays as much as possible. People talk, revisions are made, and they play some more."

I assume Dan Magaha could speak in greater depth on that subject, eh Dan?

This next paragraph is one we would all do well to remember:

"For this reason, many of the design elements are still in flux, which means that some of what you are reading about will be tweaked, changed, or even absent. Civilizations may or may not have inherent advantages. Ditto for the special units in the game. The American F-16 or the Roman Legion may have special powers, but not if Firaxis feels it unbalances the game."

[yin26]

Markos:

You have a much more seasoned view of this. You've seen the process of Alpha to Gold many times. And sure, I'm interested in seeing how all this will be improved as well. But if you ask me, showing screenshots at this stage (unless they were awesome, of course) is rather silly. I suppose, though, if this is the start of the media blitz, we'll just have to bear with it.

[yin26]

Kull:

I've considered "the Firaxis Method" on more than one occasion. I can tell you that it has obvious advantages. However, I have also seen some rather insidious disadvantages as well: When you play a game over and over from the Alpha stage as a tight-knit group, you begin to lose your objectivity. It's like when I write at speech for the president of our university...I swear I looked at the word "marital" and saw "martial" two hundred times without it registering. You simply MUST have new eyes looking at your material all the time.

So while that method is all well and good, how many of those guys are really going to say "Sid, this part of the game REALLY sucks"? First, it would take some balls, which I'll grant that they have. Second, it would take not being in love with or blind to your own work, which too much incremental upgrades over a time to things can make you do.

Consider SMAC. They thought those were some kick-ass graphics and ground-breaking gameplay. (Issues that the beta team tried to take issue with, by the way, but it was either too late in the process or falling on deaf ears).

So I predict that unless Civ3 gets some serious and dedicated play-testing OUTSIDE of the Firaxis loop, we could be in for some interesting months come release time.

[Kull]

Yin26: As further support to your "beta-graphics" theory:

"To save design time, art and sound assets for for certain aspects of the game won't even be approached until they're in for sure."

That may explain the absence of 3D terrain. Perhaps it's really "there" in the beta, but just being simulated by underlying tile attributes.

[GaryGuanine]

What was that business regarding Brueghel's "Tower of Babel"? Do you mean the art on the box?

Gary

[Jeje2]

Nice to see some new material...

About the graphics discussion. I personally don't think SAMC engine to be so bad. And since height was used in the game...

What we can say from these pictures is: Bye bye hexas.
Dan: Ok, a choise has been made and I can live with it quite easily, but was there a talk about using hexas or not ever? (Just curious)

[Kull]

Gary: "Visually, Firaxis felt it to be so important to have a singular vision for the game's look and feel that the design team enlisted a 17th Century painting by Peter Brueghel as their muse of sorts. Any time an artist on the project has a question about design or palette, they consult Brueghels Tower of Babel. In Firaxis' minds this will create a unified theme across the game."

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-28-2001 01:48 AM You have a much more seasoned view of this. You've seen the process of Alpha to Gold many times

actually, i havent seen more than what we posted here. i may have seen it first, but that's that....

[yin26]

Kull:

I agree with that approach to a certain degree...but I wonder what all the graphics and sound people are doing during that time? Does it create a graphic and sound panic toward the end of a project?

Anyway, I find it so funny some people wetting their pants looking at graphic place-holders.

[yin26]

Markos:

What I mean is you are familiar with the evolutionary development of games (having watched it closely with CtP, for example) and don't draw major conclusions from early screenshots...which is as it should be.

[Youngsun]

quote: Each raw -good icon supplies an entire civilization with that particular good. Resources such as iron and uranium allow a civilization to produce certain goods. Luxuries such as ivory make the population happier. RULES One icon supplies all cities linked to each other by road or by harbor with that particular good. VALUE adds extra depth to the game's economic model in a tangible way. Allows players to create monopolies on certain goods within continents, in a sense becoming power brokers."

My god!

[Kull]

Some very interesting things about Trade Specials:

quote: "now game worlds sport raw materials that when sitting within a city's sphere of influence can be used for the good of the player's civilization...in firaxis' design the raw map resources tie directly into the gameplay [as opposed to CTP] rather than functioning strictly as a source of revenue raw goods can be used to build certain types of units or to make your citizens happier. you can also use them to amplify your power, and possibly even win the game."

If you look at the City Management Screen, you can see all the "specials" flowing to the city of Baltimore (top right of the screen). The lowest "bar" shows how many "martini glasses" these are worth (These have replaced the gold goblet as the symbol of "luxury")

The last comment, "possibly even win the game" is alluded to elsewhere in connection with "Uranium". It doesn't take a mind reader to figure out what THAT means! If your civ doesn't have possesion of Uranium specials when the A-bomb is invented, then you probably won't be joining the "Nuclear Club"! Similarly, one can assume that access to copper, tin, and eventually iron is going to be crucial for civs in ancient times.

Edit: Posted before seeing Youngsun's comment. Another proof of the "Great Minds think alike concept"!
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited March 28, 2001).]

[Adm.Naismith]

Yin26, overreacting is bad, but underreacting is...?

After months of efforts, are you loosing interest if you are not involved on beta test? I don't mean it's your absolute goal, but sometime it seems to slip into your posts in a way would had interested dr. Freud

Screenshots are promising, IMHO. They are alpha images, but probably not so far from final game look.

Well, let's see what juice we can squeeze from these news.

Examining the pic we can suppose:
- 3D terrain is not included, but simulated by tiles: flat, square and isometric are back (for Sid simplicity Mantra?)

- dark images (scan effect taken) are quite near (on my monitor, at least ) to "Tower of Babel" paintings. It seems on the Epic side, if you ask me, and I'll enjoy it as long as units are not hidden away in the dark.

- the screenshot showing lot of units is obviusly zoomed out, so I don't mind about units difference from already know full scale units (available on official Firaxis site). Arquebus unit (top right) seems very interesting to me, as different kind of tanks. I only hope we will have time to build so many different units (if some automatic upgrade will not take care of it).

- city view seems born to live at very large resolutions: 1024*768 could be the very minimum res (and while you think will be no problem, I'm still using a notebook 800*600, thanks for asking ).
- Inside city walls, there is room for about 25 city improvement (the big squares divided by streets seems able to host one), so we'll have max 26 city improvements (walls included). Wonders are outside city walls, so they don't count here.
- city view surrounding seems a bit on the "fall" season; I wonder if we'll get seasonal look change (snow for winter, light green and flowers for spring etc.) It could be an eye candy, a hint of turns down from year to season, a way to show your city "mood" a la Black & White game (dark look for sadness, light for happyness). May be I'm only me, sleeping not enough for my tired brain

- city screen show the classic city "range", no room left to a greather area, so we can forget city radius increase (may be city start with a small radius, but growth no more than classic)
- we will have only a building slot (may be a queue, clicking on it)
- city growth seems only related to food available, as in CIV tradition (more complex models are probably out)
- we can see a biplane on city view: short of eyes candy, I do a jump of imagination and suppose it reproduce a Wonder (Whright Brothers first fly) or may be a Feat of Wonder (First fly over The Channel)

- Military advisor is displayed into four looks, so we'll have four ages in Civ III (forget more complex model)

Ok, my "Sherlock Holmes 10 minutes show" is over. Please abuse of my deductions as you like.
They can be a pile of .... (well, you know ), but I would like to see Dan face if I get some right hints, after all that mystery Firaxis force him

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited March 28, 2001).]

[Jeje2]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 03-28-2001 04:53 AM - Inside city walls, there is room for about 25 city improvement (the big squares divided by streets seems able to host one), so we'll have max 26 city improvements (walls included). Wonders are outside city walls, so they don't count here. Please abuse of my deductions as you like.

Well OK, but just becouse you requested it.

What if they are reusing the idea from Colonization by limiting the squares in a single city. Then every city can't produce everything and thus you need to specialize with different cities. This could be interesting...
At least trade would be important.

Your turn to abuse Adm.N.
[This message has been edited by Jeje2 (edited March 28, 2001).]

[Zanzin]

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-28-2001 02:28 AM I find it so funny some people wetting their pants looking at graphic place-holders.

Well it's too late now!! Nobody told me they were alpha graphics. And no, I don't think for myself!!

If you'll excuse me, I've gota go and change my pants

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Jeje2 on 03-28-2001 05:06 AM Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 03-28-2001 04:53 AM - Inside city walls, there is room for about 25 city improvement (the big squares divided by streets seems able to host one), so we'll have max 26 city improvements (walls included). Wonders are outside city walls, so they don't count here. What if they are reusing the idea from Colonization by limiting the squares in a single city. Then every city can't produce everything and thus you need to specialize with different cities. This could be interesting... At least trade would be important.

Sorry, I never played Colonization. Would you explain me a bit more, please? I'm a bit confused: how your post relate to my "investigation" on screenshots?

My guess about very max city facilities limit is based on visible graphic limit, at least supposing Firaxis will repeat in every city the same "enhancement position grid": aqueduct will always been on the left square, colosseum on the right, etc.