Dear god, the auto workers are coming! - Page 3

Chronus · April 9, 2001, 22:50

MARKG QUOTE: "http://www.apolyton.net/cgi-bin/poll/civ3e/results.pl
i forgive you "

DOH! I obviously missed it. In that case, "I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:6)

Still, I think Chris has a point. The poll asks if PW is good. It doesn't mention anything about how it compares to settler units. I SUPPOSE the insinuation is there ... but I still find it a bit too ambiguous. Or, perhaps I just don't like the results ;-)

Anyway, I'm off to my corner to pout, murmering "I'm still voting for settler units" in the process.

Chronus · April 10, 2001, 00:03

Hi MarkG,

I find that poll rather skewed.

First, I presume it was conducted in the CTP/CTP2 forums (but please forgive me if I'm wrong). CTP lovers, in my opinion, have a different mindframe than CIV players. I should know because I'm both of them ... which, I suppose, makes me confused ;-)

Anyway, one of the big factors why most CTP players gravitate to CTP is because of the PW, among other things. So, of course they are going to vote for PW.

Secondly, out of the five options listed, two are votes for PW, one is against, a third is no opinion, and the remaining one is ambiguous: "For certain tasks ..." can be read as both for or against PW. Consequently, you have only one sure-fire vote option against PW.

May I suggest a poll conducted in this forum with only two options: Settler Units vs. Public Works? I don't know how much work it is to set up these polls but I would find the results rather interesting. And my apologies if this has already been done and I somehow missed it.

jglidewell · April 10, 2001, 00:04

quote:

Originally posted by Ilkuul on 04-06-2001 06:24 PM
Yes! That would be great, IF the AI is smart enough to make it work!

[This message has been edited by Ilkuul (edited April 06, 2001).]

I third the nomination. This is one smart engeneer. Comes with all the options of 1. Build road to X,X. 2. Irrigate x,x and y,y 3. this baby is going to have to have a work queue, I got too much work for him

[This message has been edited by jglidewell (edited April 09, 2001).]

Pingu: · April 10, 2001, 00:33

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth...

I certainly won't let the AI go terraforming for me. In Civ 2 and SMAC, I tend to spend ages destroying all those stupid railroads and magtubes that go nowhere.

Roads should give a trade bonus, how else is farmer giles going to get to the market. Railroads should give production for mines too...
Roads go everywhere! railroads connect important sites, but no more...

I really like the public works idea, although it should only work on city radius scale...

however....

A builder unit (and later a combat Engineers Corps.) is essential too. Building forts and bridges (especially if there's a distinction between small rivers and BIG rivers that are uncrossable, that's a cool idea).

Perhaps some normal military units (infantry types) should get to have SOME builder functions, the Roman Legions built the roads themselves, and were as much an army of crafsmen as good soldiers....

Pingu:

markusf · April 10, 2001, 00:51

I can beat 6 human players at once, and i regularly build 7 wonders on diety 1x 1x before 300 bc.. Public works would have been a disastor. You could build a whole road system around your empire in 1 turn with no risk what so ever to any of your units. THe only complaint i have is that this will not kill iCS. From what i have heard so far, i would build a worker, irrigate 3 squares around my cap, buy a granary and start cranking out settlars. (say hello to ics) If it was PW, it would even be worse, i would build 2 farms, and build roads to city sites and just rush out settlars from my big city sites... Now if civ3 is going to make it hard to build cities, its going to be extremely unbalanced if your allowed to get tribes from huts.. In some games i have gotten up to 9 tribes in a row.... This should be fixed.

supremus · April 10, 2001, 10:14

PW is good ! It's not understandeable Firaxis refuse to copy this good innovation CTP came up. Micromanagement to improve land production isn't a problem at the beguine of the game, it is even fun. But it becomes veeeeery booooooring in the later phases.

SerapisIV · April 10, 2001, 16:31

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisShaffer on 04-09-2001 05:40 PM
35% "yes" isn't exactly a stunning majority.

Supremus, PW wasn't included because the majority of people didn't want it, a vocal minority doesn't make everyone agree

EnochF · April 10, 2001, 16:42

Enjoy only Dr. Bronner's Public Works to clean Body-Mind-Soul-Spirit instantly uniting One! All-One! Absolute management is Godliness! Teach the Public Works ABC that unites all mankind free! For Farms-Mines-Roads & soothing nets, add dash on ground in ocean of salt water! KEEP OUT OF EYE! DO NOT DRINK! DILUTE! DILUTE! OK! Divert full production to Truth-Faith-Works, gather Build-Points from Mason Rabbi Hillel! Spend for Food-Trade-Production-Culture, which are All-One, for one God's Spaceship with Bomb and Gun! LISTEN CHILDREN ETERNAL FATHER ETERNAL ONE! ENGINEERS ETERNALLY? NONE!! ABSOLUTELY NONE! What happen? Take off every Worker for great justice! All-One-God-Faith Public Works Lightning-Like Strong for Mineral-Salt Calcium-Malt Corn-Sesame-Bread Lecithin-Cereal Health-Meal-Tape Catspaw-Sandals Stainless-Safety-Mills Soap-Towels & Dr. Bronner's Public Works! Apply to clean Ant-Mosquito-Tick-Fly! Keep safe for Dispensers-Uniform-Baby-Beach-Bath! Apply dry for Athlete's Foot! Make your time! Workers build Farms? Impossible below pH3!

J.DeMobray · April 10, 2001, 17:19

Why do I suddenly want some mail order soap?

April 10, 2001, 17:58

quote:

Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-10-2001 04:31 PM
Supremus, PW wasn't included because the majority of people didn't want it, a vocal minority doesn't make everyone agree

quote:

Yes 171 / 35%
Yes, but could be better 140 / 28%

hmm, i wonder what 35+28 makes us....

SerapisIV · April 10, 2001, 18:15

Hold on there, I personally like the idea in principal of PW, but I don't want to give up my combat engineers. I also don't see a way to resolve the ability of a unit engineer for outside my cities and PW. If it means more micromanagement, but I decide where I can build things, instead of my borders deciding, then so be it. I'll take the current worker system. I don't like the idea of redundancy of PW and workers though. So, I'll take the current system with all its faults (and strengths). And more importantly, this way maybe CivIII can be released before 2002.
[This message has been edited by SerapisIV (edited April 10, 2001).]

raingoon · April 10, 2001, 18:20

Enoch that's too funny.

Mark G,

quote:

when a 35% clearly says "yes", is that because it was fooled by the poll options??????

Yep, that would be affirmative. They were in fact fooled by the poll options. Not to mention the poll question:

quote:

CTP's Public Works, good?
Yes 171 / 35%
Yes, but could be better 140 / 28%
No 92 / 18%
For certain tasks... 67 / 13%
No opinion 16 / 3%

This poll is MOST DEFINITELY skewed toward gathering a sample response in favor of Public Works.

First, the question: "CTP's Public Works, good?"

Skewed. In polling responses, people tend to agree rather than disagree, thereby avoiding psychological conflict. Call it the "yeah, sure, why not?" reflex. This poll should be scrapped for this alone. You would have been better off if you had simply said CTP's Public Works...? and then let each response finish the statement, a la the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality test. Put it another way, would the poll have been different if instead you had asked CTP's Public Works, bad? We'll never know. But let's just say your position on PW was hinted at in the way you phrased the question.

Secondly, this poll only offers us a choice between PW and the total absence of PW. IOW, it offers a void, a "no," as the alternative to PW. And if by the response No the poll means to imply that settlers are an alternative (which I don't have any reason to think it does) than the poll is even more skewed. Why? Uh, because polls that are not skewed do not offer two affirmative "Yes" choices for X while giving you exactly half as many choices in support of not-X by voting yes with an affirmative "No."(???)

I mean, it's sorta funny but this poll should not be taken as reliable information.

Bottom line is Chronus said he thought this poll was skewed and he was absolutely right. Fortunately Firaxis obviously doesn't follow polls.

April 10, 2001, 18:21

quote:

Originally posted by SerapisIV on 04-10-2001 06:15 PM
but I decide where I can build things, not my borders, then so be it.

the issue on whether you can build outside your borders is unrelated with whether you use a pw or settler system. it's a matter of game rule that can exist in both systems

quote:

And more importantly, this way maybe CivIII can be in my hands before 2002.

i dont think anyone said to change the decision to go with settlers now....

SerapisIV · April 10, 2001, 18:32

Hey MarkG, put this debate to rest, start a new poll, options being:

__PW
__Workers
__A mix

SerapisIV · April 10, 2001, 18:40

Nice MarkG, thanks

April 10, 2001, 18:46

quote:

Originally posted by raingoon on 04-10-2001 06:20 PM
First, the question: "CTP's Public Works, good?"

Skewed. In polling responses, people tend to agree rather than disagree, thereby avoiding psychological conflict.

psychological conflict when voting in a poll on an internet site from the privacy of your computer?? come on....

quote:

Secondly, this poll only offers us a choice between PW and the total absence of PW.

and what would be a second "no" option?

bottom line: i dont try to have an equal number of positive and negative options to vote for. i try to put all the popular opinions on the subject. it is then up to the people to vote whatever they wish
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited April 10, 2001).]

raingoon · April 10, 2001, 19:16

quote:

psychological conflict when voting in a poll on an internet site from the privace of their computer?? come on....

I think it is clear I'm talking about uncounscious impulses. The "conflict" I'm talking about a voter experieincing is obviously not more than would be appropriate for the context you describe, yet no less than is required to skew your result. Which is what happened.

quote:

and what would be a second "no" option?

Settlers.

[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited April 10, 2001).]

raingoon · April 10, 2001, 21:33

Marg G, now the NEW PW vs. Settle poll is PERFECT!

raingoon · April 10, 2001, 21:38

Uh, sorry. I mean Mark.

the craftmason · April 10, 2001, 22:12

(Im Italian

so, please, forgive my poor english...)
Hi everyone!

Ah, you must be joking...You really have so many time to waste for micromanage an EMPIRE?! Well, i havent. Scientific research, diplomatic accords, military manouvers, politic reforms, trace trade routes, converting peoples to my religion (CTP2)... and you else want to allocate and employ every single citizien of all your cities? Uhm, im a Leader: someone else (mayors) think that for me

I have other problems to resolve! If i really want to waste my time with capillar city micromanagement, i play with Sim City 3000...

Pw is the better choice, Why? Because is realistic! Every cities has a pubblic fund for manage the pubblic works. "Ordinary" people can make the work...one settler, in one turn (ex. 50 years) can cultivate only one square (ehm). With PW, and fund for finance the works, i can cultivate even 3-4 squares...now, in the real life, how many km. of terrain i should can work in 50y?

If i want to build a single trait of road (destroyed by a barbaric horde), i really have to take a unit of citiziens, wait tot. turn for the making of the unit, and finally pay tot. of shields? FOR A PIECE OF ROAD?? NO WAY! Why? Because isn't realistic!

Ciao!

TechWins · April 10, 2001, 23:28

Hey, craftsmoon guy. How can you say public works is more realistic? I don't know how roads, farms, and mines appear in Italy but I know here in the US it's real workers who create roads, farms, and mines.

Chronus · April 11, 2001, 00:42

You tell him, Techwins!

By the way, I'm just north of you, up in Snobsdale ... I mean, Scottsdale.

the craftmason · April 11, 2001, 02:52

well, maybe here in America you guys lack of immagination... because seem that if you dont see, you don't believe! well, and realy you should make a graphic unit for an activity one-turn long? Ah, my God! and the little materials that appears when you first click into the "empty" square? What do you think, that is a some sort of "pollution" or what? Ehm, please...
Pw, dear Sid, pw... is since my first civ-play on the Amiga 500 that i pray for one brilliant solution like this!

Ari-ciao!

April 11, 2001, 02:56

quote:

Originally posted by raingoon on 04-10-2001 07:16 PM

quote:

and what would be a second "no" option?

Settlers.

that's already included in the "no" option.

April 11, 2001, 02:59

quote:

Originally posted by raingoon on 04-10-2001 09:33 PM
the NEW PW vs. Settle poll is PERFECT!

thanks

perhaps in the future i should get your advice in case i subconsciously put subconscious pressure to people who vote...

SerapisIV · April 11, 2001, 09:23

Let's be honest, you won't get advice in the future, you'll just get steadily harrassed by random posters you've never heard before such as myself till our needs (I have needs too) are placated. Damn, that sucks for your email. Sorry.

PS try not to drown in the sarcasm

PPS Thanks again for the poll

MrFun · April 11, 2001, 13:34

Craftmason -- I want to thank you for your wise insight, mostly because I agree with it.

MrFun · April 11, 2001, 13:41

Oh, and one other thing -- I can see possible crises across the nation if we continue with Workers for tile improvement.

1) Divorce rates increase to 100% of all marriages, due to husbands and wives who are complaining, "You spend more time micromanaging those Workers in that worthless game than with me!"

2) The FBI might get suspicious of thousands of players micromanaging Workers, as they may investigate to assure themselves that we're not sending out orders to actual militia extremists.

3) More babies will die of malnutrition as mothers and fathers become obsessed with micromanaging dozens of Workers to improve tiles.

4) The federal government may want to implement the "don't ask, don't tell" policy on these Workers for this software game. They would not want openly gay Workers represented in Civilization III.

5) and . . . . I can't think of any other possible crisis due to this grave mistake.

airdrik · April 11, 2001, 14:19

Managing the workers in civ 3 will be no different than it was in civ 2, etc. except that the AI for auto-workers will be improoved (and more options available for how the AI will manage them). If you liked the CTP way of doing it, then play CTP. This is Civ 3, this is the way it is, DEAL WITH IT.

raingoon · April 11, 2001, 14:19

quote:

(Mark G said) and what would be a second "no" option?

quote:

(raingoon) Settlers.

(Mark G) that's already included in the "no" option.

that's why your first poll was bogus. Actually, you're right -- in your first poll settlers were indicated in the word "no." In your new poll settlers are indicated in the word "settlers," which at least in my case is the word I most often associate with actual settlers...

[This message has been edited by raingoon (edited April 11, 2001).]