What the heck is the EU?

Al B. Sure! · April 21, 2002, 12:11

Maybe it's cause I'm an American but I can't figure out what the hell is the EU. Is it just one big bureaucracy cause it sure don't seem to be supported by the people of Europe. Didn't the German people not want to replace the Mark yet somehow, Germany's using the Euro? Do the EU leaders even get elected? I thought Europe would turn into some sort of Articles of Confederacy or maybe even the early Constitutional US but it sure seems like the EU is one big bureacracy trying to circumvent democratic principals.

thanks

Provost Harrison · April 21, 2002, 18:27

...but no thanks.

EU = European Union

Sheesh.

Bereta_Eder · April 21, 2002, 18:29

When we figure it out for ourselves, we'll let you know Albert

Kropotkin · April 21, 2002, 18:43

It such a complex union that you need at least a ph.d. in political science to even have a reasonable chance of grasping the concept. Don't ask us peons...

Alexander's Horse · April 21, 2002, 18:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Maybe it's cause I'm an American

There's your answer right there

MrFun · April 21, 2002, 19:31

The European Union is a diabolical, conspiracy-based organization among European nation members who have fantastical dreams of becoming more globally dominant than the good ol' United States.

Sarxis · April 21, 2002, 19:33

You mean like a Revived Roman Empire?

Provost Harrison · April 21, 2002, 19:33

Yep, sounds good to me

Gibsie · April 21, 2002, 19:34

This would've been a much more fun thread if a huge anti-EU article had been posted at the same time.

Ecthy · April 21, 2002, 19:39

but it has

MrFun · April 21, 2002, 19:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Yep, sounds good to me

A dream among Europeans. Note the word "fantastical" in my post.

Gibsie · April 21, 2002, 19:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
but it has

Where?

thanks

Al B. Sure! · April 22, 2002, 22:15

Umm... yeah... so it's some European intellectuals (read leftists) who want to some sort of European Union (of Socialist States)?

TCO · April 22, 2002, 22:32

It's all the fad with the young set in Europe. But it does have some weenie beauracracy aspects...as well as some good aspects (lowered tarrifs, easier movement.)

The Emperor Fabulous · April 22, 2002, 23:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

There's your answer right there

Ok, tough guy, you explain it

Spiffor · April 22, 2002, 23:28

EU is an absolute anti democratic bureaucracy
I study the right in the Community, so here are some facts :

Decisions are taken by 3 actors : the Commission, the Council, the Parliament.
The Commission has ~ 20 Comissioners, who are decided by the states. Big states have 2 commissioners, while small states have 1. These commissioners are not elected by the people, but chosen by the PMs or Presidents. These commissioners have a bureaucracy behind them : advisors, administrators etc. The commission must represent the interests of the Union, not of a particular member.
The Council represents the national governments. In a Council meeting, the states can be represented by ministers (when the question is important), but at most by administrators who represent the interest of their State. They decide most often at "qualified majority" (each country has more or less votes than others, to imperfectly reflect demography). When a minister votes on behalf of his country, it's considered the entire country is coherent and votes unanimously like the adminstrator did. Again, the Council is not elected.
The Parliament is the only democratic instance of the EU. Its members are elected for 5 years. Every country holds the elections the same day, even if the functionment of the election can vary from one country to another. Number of representatives per country reflects almost perfetly the demographics. The parliament can vote defiance towards the Commission, and it has almost been done once (the former, corrupt, Comission resigned before this).

Now, how are the decisions taken ?
The Commission elaborates a law (with an extreme pressure from the lobbies). Only it can elaborate and propose a law. Commissioners -or their representatives for that matter- have to vote if their work is worthy or not. If they agree, the project is transferred to the Council.
The Council discusses the articles presented in the law. After much bargaining, an agreement may be found between the bureaucrats, and the articles get voted one by one. When an article is voted, it cannot be cancelled. When bureaucrats cannot find an agreement among them, true politicians have to decide. When the law is approved by the Council, it then goes to the Parliament, in some cases only.
The parliament studies the law, and votes amendments if necessary. If the representatives agree on some amendments, it is then transferred to the Council, and a bargaining between the Parliament and the council begins, with the moderation of a specialized institution. In most cases, the moderation is a success and the law is a bit amended. If the moderation is an utter failure, the law fails to pass.
This procedure is very long : it can take less than 6 months if it's about something unimportant (the max. height of garden dwarves for example), but it can last up to 8 years for very difficult and political subjects, such as the opening of national monopoles.

What we can see is that the only Democratic institution has almost nothing to do : it has no initiative of elaborating a law, it can slightly modify an existing project, it must wait for the COmmission and the Council to do something before it can do anything by itself. National parliaments are often simply ignored, and they often know what's going on too late, when agreements between governments have been reached. The lobbies have an important role, esp. those with much money, because they can influence directly the work of the Comission (which will influence dearly the rest of the law).
The powers of the parliament slowly progress as time passes by, but it is still unsignificant. It come from the philosophy of the EU : after WW2 and the failed attempts to unite Europe between the 2 world wars, it was decided to create economic bounds first, and political bounds after, when the solidarities were concrete and true.

Edit : by the way, as Propotkin said it, you'd need a Phd in political sciences... I almost have this

Frankychan · April 22, 2002, 23:57

From what my friends at school tell me...(in laymans terms)

The EU is an attempt to unify the European currency to one uniform mark. Other than that....who knows?

Hmmm, if Europe wants to become a global powerhouse maybe the nations of the Pacific Ocean should unite and become Oceania!

Hawaii would become Oceania's capital after we seceed from the mainland U.S.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

Skanky Burns · April 23, 2002, 06:07

Quote:

Hawaii would become Oceania's capital after we seceed from the mainland U.S.

I think not

Ecthy · April 23, 2002, 06:31

in the OT

Sprayber · April 23, 2002, 06:31

Quote:

Originally posted by frankychan
From what my friends at school tell me...(in laymans terms)

The EU is an attempt to unify the European currency to one uniform mark. Other than that....who knows?

Hmmm, if Europe wants to become a global powerhouse maybe the nations of the Pacific Ocean should unite and become Oceania!

Hawaii would become Oceania's capital after we seceed from the mainland U.S.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

States have tried that before. All have faild.

Ecthy · April 23, 2002, 06:38

we did it in '71

Ecthy · April 23, 2002, 06:39

maybe we have to make quick war against the US first and then proclaim a European empire in the White House

Buck Birdseed · April 23, 2002, 06:40

Quick history of the European Union in case it clarifies things somewhat:

What later became the EU was formed in 1952 as a sort of OPEC-equavilent but of Steel and Coal, a producting countries' union which would be useful to co-ordinate pricing and whatnot, incorporating six european countries (France, Germany, Italy and the Benelux countries). Except that it also crucially regulated the internat steel and coal market between these countries, removed tarriffs and so on. This was all rather successful so they decided (in 1957) to extend the free-market idea to a larger scope, which became the EEC. In 65 they joined the Coal and Steel community together with the EEC to form the EC. By this time various legal decisions had made sure that the supernational portion of the EC was extremely strong- the European court could overrule national courts, etc. on free-trade and customs-union matters. Then basically nothing happened except for a bunch of consolidation of this still essentially economic-regulatory union for about twenty years. Well, six more countries joined. And a set exchange-rate mechanism was introduced to stop too many fluctuations in exchange rates. But anyway, in 1986 the finally decided to get rid of all market barriers between the countries, to create a single market where goods could be moved around freely. And then in 1992 they decided to extend co-operation to Justice/Security issues, and to Foreign Affairs/Military issues, thus forming the EU. The EC, with the econonomic co-operation, was still the main focus.

In about 1999, the single market was finally converted into a Common Market, with true free movement of labour, capital and services between all EU countries. This january 11 EU countries also joined a single currency, again to make the Common Market even more viable.

As you can see it is not a political or particuarly socialist idea in any way. It's basically a supergovermental Free Trade union extended into a common market with basically no practical borders between countries when conducting business.

aaglo · April 23, 2002, 06:57

EU is another name for U.S.E. = united states of europe... which means monetary union, centralized government, crappy economy and people getting stupider: we've all seen it happening in USA.

Adagio · April 23, 2002, 07:04

EU is about the best thing that have ever happened to Europe, just to bad that Denmark is not that much in the EU as it should be...

BeBro · April 23, 2002, 07:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Didn't the German people not want to replace the Mark yet somehow, Germany's using the Euro?

I wanted the Euro

And I want more Euros everyday

April 23, 2002, 07:15

Quote:

Originally posted by MrFun
The European Union is a diabolical, conspiracy-based organization among European nation members who have fantastical dreams of becoming more globally dominant than the good ol' United States.

Mr. Fun, you're hilarious

.

I also think you are right. The EU, is Europe's attempt to unite and become a superpower, only, its more like what the Confederate States of America would have been like. They're never going to agree on a strong central government, but its nice to let them think they are important.

Provost Harrison · April 23, 2002, 08:00

I'd watch your arse Sava when we get our act together

Buck Birdseed · April 23, 2002, 08:14

Right now Real strong central power is a very remote possibility. The principle of subsidiarity (Only give the EU tasks that cannot be accomplished by the member states by themselves) and the lack of Kompetenz-Kompetenz (ie. All EU tasks are dictated by the member states), means that while countries like Sweden put the breaks in, no political or economic union will be achieved.

Adagio · April 23, 2002, 08:26

Quote:

Originally posted by BeBro
I wanted the Euro

And I want more Euros everyday

I still want the Euro, yet I have never owned a single Euro yet, I hoped to get some Euro in change last time I was in Germany (about a month ago), but noooo, they gave me my change in Kroner (The danish currency)

As we had the election the was very little difference between those who wanted the Euro, and those who didn't, we lost, they voted no

But if they had that election today I believe the mayority would say yes to get the Euro...