The future of Firaxis - Page 2

TCO · April 22, 2002, 22:45

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
4. Outside investors will be much more impressed if you produce a game which is so good people will pay for it. A free game won't impress them so much. (Common sense really.)

Specifically what they want to see are demonstrated sales. This tells them that you really have something worthwhile. buncha giveaways and web hype will not be likely to sell them...

Velociryx · April 22, 2002, 22:46

Quite so....and I'm looking to make our first acquisition sometime next year....as to the time...that, I've got....

-=Vel=-

TCO · April 22, 2002, 22:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
well, yes and no. One of the main things that investors ask is, "is there a market for your product?"

Most companies don't have anything but an idea when they go to the money men. Thus, all they have are projections (which amount to best guesses) and high hopes.

We'll have numbers. X people have downloaded our game. X people are participating in our discussion groups. X people on our mailing list, and the following stable of ideas for taking the game commercial.

Compared to most folks who go to the investors asking for money, we'll have lots more ducks in a row....

-=Vel=-

You are setting up a straw man and not being consistent.

YES, web interest is better than just pure concept. It is not as good as demonstrated sales. And in case you haven't noticed the market for hot air has gotten a lot worse nowadays.

If you have a system all set up and can show how the revenues could start coming in, than you might have a shot here. For instance if you set up a "free" MP server that gets kids hooked like crack cocaine... and than you tell VC you are ready to start charging. However, even in this case, VC will be skeptical. Why haven't you flipped switch to charging yet? Why do you need investment funds prior to charging rates?

Velociryx · April 22, 2002, 22:49

Again, an excellent point, but these same investors are the guys who put money into products that don't exist as more than ideas on paper! Thus, there are no sales when they write the check. There are no guarantees that there'll even be a market for the product when it comes out.

And while our stats may not be reflective of sales, I would contend that they're more solid than a marketing analysis for a product that does not yet exist, which again, is how a great many (if not most) startups scare up their money. Hyping a product that doesn't quite exist yet.

-=Vel=-

TCO · April 22, 2002, 22:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Quite so....and I'm looking to make our first acquisition sometime next year....as to the time...that, I've got....

-=Vel=-

What do you mean by that?

How will your acquisition create value?

TCO · April 22, 2002, 22:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Again, an excellent point, but these same investors are the guys who put money into products that don't exist as more than ideas on paper! Thus, there are no sales when they write the check. There are no guarantees that there'll even be a market for the product when it comes out.

And while our stats may not be reflective of sales, I would contend that they're more solid than a marketing analysis for a product that does not yet exist, which again, is how a great many (if not most) startups scare up their money. Hyping a product that doesn't quite exist yet.

-=Vel=-

You are too much conditioned by the events of the New Economy. VC game is back to where it was in pre-1996. Yes they will back a concept...but usually only if it is truly novel, epecially if it has a patent or such.

You should push yourself to create a more solid plan. I would not count on getting money otherwise.

TCO · April 22, 2002, 23:03

Vel,

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. But REALLY HONESTLY it sounds very fluffy to me. Until you can show someone lkike me how this owuld make money, it will not interest investors. You should also think this through yourself more closely before you spend lots of time, money, relative's money, etc.

Urban Ranger · April 22, 2002, 23:21

He might not want investors. As a matter of fact Robert Townsend warned against getting investors, esp. too early in the game (no pun intended).

A lot of early companies in the computer industry practically had no outside investors (except for Apple). What they usually did was to work hard for a few years to build up value, then seek a buyer for the company.

ravagon · April 23, 2002, 01:05

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
Vel,

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. But REALLY HONESTLY it sounds very fluffy to me. Until you can show someone lkike me how this owuld make money, it will not interest investors. You should also think this through yourself more closely before you spend lots of time, money, relative's money, etc.

As far as I can tell though, money/investors aren't really the primary issue here. At least not for some time. AFAIK (and I only lurk around Vel's site so maybe I don't know) the participants do so only part time in their spare time. ie: Production time sacrificed for very low production cost.
Other than legal/copyright/patenting expenses (about which I have no idea whatsoever

) the major costings involved would probably be in burning CD's, packaging, producing the manual (There is going to be a paper manual right Vel?

) and possibly advertising. 90% (?) of all of which would be done at/near the end. ie: After they have a virtually finished product to show any marketers/investors etc.
Even in the absolute worst case of not being able to pick up any financial backing they could still produce it privately, using el cheapo internet advertising over civ-type gaming sites (for example

) and burn off CD's/electronic manuals for postal delivery whenever required. Participants would have put in a lot of spare time (and hence I suppose money by default) but they still wouldn't suffer serious losses.

[PS: Vel, reading your comments on economics inspired me to reread your Lands of Lorraine AAR.

It seems to me that some judicious editing might be in order in case any "investor" were to read it bud. Heh heh

]

TCO · April 23, 2002, 01:13

UR and Ravagon,

Yeah. Makes sense. One approach is to keep control and to avoid investors. That is fine. I guess I just got a little hung up on Vel's mention of interest from VCs.

I still think that the whole plan needs some thinking through. How will this be different from Freeciv? How much work will volunteers do? How many man-hours are required to produce a game that is impressive enough to take company to next stage.

TCO · April 23, 2002, 01:14

Could I get a link to Vel's site?

ravagon · April 23, 2002, 01:23

Same as in his profile.

http://clik.to/renaissance

I don't think they're at the screenshot stage quite yet though.

notyoueither · April 23, 2002, 02:25

Vel's concept of a game built for love is valid. Many, many things are built for love. The ones that have not yet made it do not prove that it can't be done.

GP's scepticism when it comes to business is also valid. Passion? Meet Capitalism! Not always a nice meeting.

I think their model is sound, so long as Vel can be the magnet to draw the talent to the project. It is after initial success and the first game that the pitfalls really loom. Ask Was.

I look forward to buying your product Vel. Good luck.

notyoueither · April 23, 2002, 02:58

PS. Why do you need to speculate on real estate?

It gives the project the sound of a flight of fancy. Sorry.

TCO · April 23, 2002, 03:43

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon
Same as in his profile.

http://clik.to/renaissance

I don't think they're at the screenshot stage quite yet though.

I couldn't find anything on the gaming stuff. At all!!

TCO · April 23, 2002, 03:43

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
PS. Why do you need to speculate on real estate?

It gives the project the sound of a flight of fancy. Sorry.

And this too...

TCO · April 23, 2002, 03:44

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Vel's concept of a game built for love is valid. Many, many things are built for love. The ones that have not yet made it do not prove that it can't be done.

GP's scepticism when it comes to business is also valid. Passion? Meet Capitalism! Not always a nice meeting.

I think their model is sound, so long as Vel can be the magnet to draw the talent to the project. It is after initial success and the first game that the pitfalls really loom. Ask Was.

I look forward to buying your product Vel. Good luck.

I agree with everything here.

Skanky Burns · April 23, 2002, 04:04

Try http://renaissanceforums.community.e...s/directory.pl

Click on the Courts of Candle'Bre link, and thats where most of the interesting stuff is.

Velociryx · April 23, 2002, 07:53

Hey guys! And apologies for the delay....was replying, got an error, and when I went to head back to the page, that strange university link came up again, so I scooted off to bed.

First, let me say to GP...I'm glad you're pushing my thinking. Conversations like this are good for me. They keep me on my toes....keep me thinking....and that's always a good thing.

To answer some of your questions from the previous page, which might shed some additional light on my thinking:

The main reason I selected real estate to go hand in hand with the other piece of it (making a computer game) is because I understand the real estate market. When I was married, it was what I was planning to do anyway. Divorce set me back a good bit, time-wise, and as it happens, the formation of the company, and getting myself into a position where I could pursue that "hobby" of mine, coincided nicely. So, while there is no synergy to be had in terms of similiarities of the business, there's certainly a synergy in terms of structure and timing....a very good, convenient thing, that.

Second reason is cos once you understand the rule of the game (speaking in terms of real estate here), it's about as difficult to make money going that route as it is to fall off a log. The difference is, that rather than build up a portfolio of properties to finance my retirement (as was the original plan), I now intend to build up a portfolio of properties to generate an income stream for the company, whose purpose is to make coolio computer games. With such an income stream behind us (eventually paying all overhead, but admittedly, that won't happen overnight), it leaves the development team free to take as much time as they need to get the game right. No "rush it out the door for Christmas" cos the publisher says so" scenarios, cos we won't even shop for a publisher till we're happy with it, and when we do shop it around, if we don't like the deal they offer, we don't bite. It's that simple. That's something that not many companies in the industry as it stands right now can afford to do. In general, the rule is, take what the publisher offers you so you can stay in business.

I don't like the way that game is played, and so sat down to devise a new way to play.

The interesting thing is, that it apparently has merit. We've got two potential investors who are quickly becoming rabid Candle'Bre fans. They're calling US on a regular basis to check in and see how we're doing. Since our initial call to them, every call that's been made has been them to us.

I think that says good things.

In my mind though, it doesn't matter what the other "leg" of the business is. Could be anything, so long as I understand the business, and it provides us a steadily increasing income stream that we can grow to the point where it covers our overhead. It just happens that I know enough about the real estate market to make that work.

And why focus on it at all? Simply because it's easier for the creative team to do their thing if they don't have to worry about whether or not we have the cash to pay them (not an issue yet, since we're doing this on a volunteer basis so far, but eventually).

How are we different from FreeCiv? I've been asked that question before, and I would say this: To my knowledge, the FreeCiv project has no plans to take their game commercial. The people working on it have to know that. And, since they know there's no chance of the game ever being marketed for money, they know it's purely voluntary. Not the case with our team. There's a prize waiting at the end of this tunnel.

I don't know enough about the FreeCiv project to know what level of collaboration exists there, but I know that in our case, the level of collaboration is quite high....and across the board, our team is chomping at the bit to play the first round of MP games....I've already got a full "dance card" where that's concerned, actually...

Rav...duly noted!

I guess I DO need to go back to the Lands of Lorraine AAR and do some....accounting...*G*

NYE: Thanks bud! Stay tuned....every day that goes by, we're getting closer....

And thanks to everyone who might be reading/lurking here who's offered up advice (even if it's to try to disuade us from what we're currently doing....I'm stubborn, but I get even MORE stubborn and determined when people tell me it can't work....so keep it coming!)

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · April 23, 2002, 07:57

A sneak peek...something I've got in my head that I have not written anywhere yet, and just so ya know I have more than one idea in my head, here's a rough list of the titles I have in mind for down the road, and a bit about them:

The Courts of Candle'Bre: The first version of the game....to be given away to draw people to us and generate interest and discussion in our efforts.

The Courts of Candle'Bre - Reckoning: The Commercial Release of the game, with a more robust engine, and all features fully fleshed out.

What Lies Beyond - A massively multiplayer version of Candle'Bre which expands the scope of the game to the "rest of the world" that lies beyond Candle'Bre's forbidding mountains.

Holy War - Computerized adaptation of the most popular board game some friends and have ever designed. Borrows, changes, and builds on many of the concepts to be developed in the games mentioned above....

Others to follow, but that should keep us busy for a while....

-=Vel=-

FrustratedPoet · April 23, 2002, 08:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
We've got two potential investors who are quickly becoming rabid Candle'Bre fans. They're calling US on a regular basis to check in and see how we're doing. Since our initial call to them, every call that's been made has been them to us.

really?

wow! that sounds very promising....

super coolio!

Velociryx · April 23, 2002, 09:03

Stoo...yep....hadn't mentioned anything specific on our board for a couple of reasons (including the fact that they lurk there), but there's interest....there's interest...

-=Vel=-

Skanky Burns · April 23, 2002, 09:10

Wow, I didn't know that either!! Very cool indeed!!

Have to talk to my Skanky Mafia about this lapse in intelligence gathering... and speaking of which, how did Stoo manage to sneak a computer into my secret compound? And connect it to the internet no less?

Velociryx · April 23, 2002, 09:19

Makin' him drink more of that cold beer, are ya!

And yep...I've been keeping those conversations a bit close to the vest so as not to get hopes up. They're interested, that's true. They're calling, that's true. Will they write a check when asked? Dunno. But that they're interested right now makes me feel like we're on the right track at least....

-=Vel=-

TCO · April 23, 2002, 12:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Stoo...yep....hadn't mentioned anything specific on our board for a couple of reasons (including the fact that they lurk there), but there's interest....there's interest...

-=Vel=-

Why should you care about investors given that you want toa void interference and that you "know" you will make oodles of dough from real estate?

Velociryx · April 23, 2002, 12:49

Mostly, it's about speed. Yes, I know that I CAN do it on my own, and am not opposed to that, but I also know that it'll take significantly longer that way. So...I'm exploring all options. Actually, the people we started out calling weren't supposed to be interested at all! LOL...we were just on a fact-finding mission...asking them questions about what kinds of companies they generally invested in and so forth....but then they started asking us questions, we got to talking, and it just sorta grew from there.

Invaluable contacts, as far as I'm concerned. They've been VERY helpful!

Need them though? Nahhh. Even without them, we could get there eventually. But for the sake of speed, it's very tempting....

-=Vel=-

Urban Ranger · April 23, 2002, 13:26

Are you going the scratchware route, i.e., small, simple games that are fast to develop? In exchange, you sell the games at a fraction of commercially developed games, say, $10, or $15 tops.

Velociryx · April 23, 2002, 13:50

Sorta, UR...sorta. I'd actually not quite list us in the scratchware category, but also not in the "commercial house" category, either. We fall somewhere in-between the two.

Most of the scratchware games I've seen skimp on graphics, for example...we're building the game world using bryce3d to model our terrain.

From the outset though, the goal was to design a game with a certain simplicity to it....an overall level of complexity that stands lower than the top of the line commercially produced games, but does not sacrifice the odd addictiveness or replayability to hit that point.

So....yes and no?

-=Vel=-

TCO · April 23, 2002, 15:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Mostly, it's about speed. Yes, I know that I CAN do it on my own, and am not opposed to that, but I also know that it'll take significantly longer that way. So...I'm exploring all options. Actually, the people we started out calling weren't supposed to be interested at all! LOL...we were just on a fact-finding mission...asking them questions about what kinds of companies they generally invested in and so forth....but then they started asking us questions, we got to talking, and it just sorta grew from there.

Invaluable contacts, as far as I'm concerned. They've been VERY helpful!

Need them though? Nahhh. Even without them, we could get there eventually. But for the sake of speed, it's very tempting....

-=Vel=-

Just be aware that they will put pressure on you once they have invested.

ravagon · April 23, 2002, 22:51

Quote:

Originally posted by GP

Just be aware that they will put pressure on you once they have invested.

I agree completely. I wasn't aware that you actually had interested investors already.

If they like what you're doing/planning at the moment then well and good but at some point differences will inevitably arise. Like as not they'll be minor and easily integrated into the scheme of things, but then again ...
IMHO things would/will be far better off if you can manage to get through as much as you can without too much "outside influence".
Even the notion of having investors to report to (if not the pressure of actual accountability) might have a negative impact on your invaluable creative process. Too many cooks syndrome sorta thing - even if they all have the same dish in mind ...

[PS: The crack about Lands of Lorraine had about as much substance to it as (and was intended as a bit of a rebuke for you even considering), your (checkered

) past having a negative effect on your game. Shame on you for ever considering such a thing!

You and your past/present have made this thing a reality, pulled people from all over the world together to work at it and have a real chance of making something of it. That sort of thing shouldn't be swept under the rug.

]