Damn Annoying Culture Problem

[FrostyBoy]

So when the Germans invaded Paris, the French decided they didn't like the German culture and revolted back to France.


Wait, does that sound right? Well it would to Firaxis!

I took a tiny city, placed 14 tough men inside, 2 turns later, the ppl decided to revolt back to Greece. Excuse me, but if the people decide to do anything, I should be able to stop them because of my army who should be controlling the people.

[Cyclotron]

Just stop garisonning your attack force in border cities. Cultural reversion only happens in cities whose culture borders that of another city's, so just put your units back from the front line. That way, not only will your units not be destroyed by a flip, but enemy retaliations and sneak attacks will lose momentum on your newly conquered buffer zone before hitting your main army.

It's a massive partisan uprising... keep in mind that Paris would not revert to France if life was Civ3 because Paris did not border any other French cities (all taken). Therefore, your analogy is flawed, not Firaxis.

[Grrr]

I agree with Cyclotron on this. I usually move my units into the borders to expand mine, to have the full city radius, and decrease cultural reversion factors.

[Arrian]

There are several keys to avoiding a culture flip:

1) have strong culture yourself. I play religious civs, and that means I always have better culture (usually by double) than any AI.

2) capture or raze nearby AI cities quickly, moving the AI cultural borders back. If any of the squares within a city's 21 square radius are within another civ's culture borders, you have a higher chance of a flip. The more squares within their borders, the higher chance of a flip.

3) make all citizens entertainers and starve the city down to pop1 as quickly as possible. Then allow it to grow. New citizens will be of your nationality. Ethnic cleansing works great in CivIII.

4) rushbuy cultural improvements asap in captured cities (at least a temple).

5) destroy the enemy. No flips then.

If you think a city is at risk for a flip, definitely garrison it lightly, holding your main force outside the city. Charge onward, perhaps leaving a couple of units nearby to recapture if it flips.

-Arrian

[MosesPresley]

To avoid culture flipping:

I bombard the city down to about a 4 or less population. I then send a settler or two to bolster the city's population with my citizens.

or

If I want to retain at least some of the city's infrastructure, I will do what Arrian suggested in

capture or raze nearby AI cities quickly, moving the AI cultural borders back

, but I still send in some settlers to homogenize the population.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Sn00py
So when the Germans invaded Paris, the French decided they didn't like the German culture and revolted back to France.


Wait, does that sound right? Well it would to Firaxis!

I took a tiny city, placed 14 tough men inside, 2 turns later, the ppl decided to revolt back to Greece. Excuse me, but if the people decide to do anything, I should be able to stop them because of my army who should be controlling the people.

I am not sure what you mean by a "Tiny" city, but if this happened under 1.17 or 1.21, that sounds like a bug. The only way a city of, say, size 2 would revolt if you had 14 troops in the city was if their total culture was 3.5 times your total culture, which is pretty unlikely. If this sounds like a bug, please post a save.

Of course, if you are using 1.16, all bets are off because under that version there was always a minimum (albeit very slim) chance of a revolt.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Sn00py
So when the Germans invaded Paris, the French decided they didn't like the German culture and revolted back to France.


Wait, does that sound right? Well it would to Firaxis!

I took a tiny city, placed 14 tough men inside, 2 turns later, the ppl decided to revolt back to Greece. Excuse me, but if the people decide to do anything, I should be able to stop them because of my army who should be controlling the people.

What happened to the German garrison in Paris?? It just vanished into thin air?!?

Culture Flipping borders and cities is garbage and asinine. It os totally non-historical, too. I've had borders flip over a GARRISONED FORTRESS and iron resource. And I'm just expected to leave??

What a joke.

[Cyclotron]

Coracle, please refer to the comment I made above that Paris could have never flipped back during WW2, since no French city bordered it (all captured by Germans).

Culture flipping is only painful to those who do not understand it. It does help make culture important and is a good strategic addition to the game. Ever try a culture war? When one of my conquered cities reverts (I've never had a home city revert, since I play culture-heavy and I'm always in the lead culturally) I just re-examine the situation, step back...

...and then pound the city into dust with my waiting units.

[Akron]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Cultural reversion only happens in cities whose culture borders that of another city's

I've had several instances where a city that i captured culturally flips even though the enemy civ is on a tiny island on the other side of the map.

Seriously, if there are 3 or more troops in a city, cultural flipping should very rarely happen.

[Cyclotron]

Hmmm... haven't seen that yet. I do know for a fact that culture flipping is pretty rare if no borders overlap, though.

[nationalist]

Raze the small town, then bring one of your own settlers. Use your 14 units to capture more Greek cities. Use Greek workers for slaves. Teach Alexander a lesson. He's always a pain in the @$$, but I love rolling over Hoplites with Panzers!

[Oerdin]

Why can't civ3 handle city revolts like CTP2 did? X number of rebels attack your stationed army and if they win then you lose control of the city. It's simple and logical enough. Plus it takes into account the combat worthiness of your troops vs rebel troops.

[nationalist]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Why can't civ3 handle city revolts like CTP2 did? X number of rebels attack your stationed army and if they win then you lose control of the city. It's simple and logical enough. Plus it takes into account the combat worthiness of your troops vs rebel troops.

That does make sense.

[FrostyBoy]

ok, I am roman, the white guys, the greeks are the green guys and as you can see my cities are much larger than theirs and this is just an island, this piece of land is not our main land.

Also you'll notice that Herakleia has rubber (one of two in the whole game), and since I didn't have any, I decided I better take it or get lost in time. So I thought I'll do it the 'nice' way, the american way; and culturally take their two close cities. First I investigated the cities to see how much culture they had and how much I might need in order to take them. They both had a temple and that's it for their culture. So I thought, great, I'll just build a temple, colleseum and a cathedral in both my cities and take them over that way. It never came to pass and time was moving on, so I thought stuff it, I'll go to war.

When I took that city, it was a size 4, coz I had used artillery on it.

I got order back in the city, built a temple on the next turn and thought it was mine forever. But on the next turn, it flipped back to Greece.

The only reason I didn't demolish the city is because I needed that rubber asap to hold off against the greeks when they start to mobilize (which didn't take them long ).

maybe the paris analogy was not a good one, but seriously, shouldn't my armies have the control of the people, rather than the people have control of my armies?


btw some might be wondering why I am not using my gfx, and that is becoz I am starting on the new one. so I have to reset the terrain gfx back to normal.

[FrostyBoy]

forgot pic

[FrostyBoy]

btw I am using the latest patch

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Coracle
I've had borders flip over a GARRISONED FORTRESS and iron resource. And I'm just expected to leave??

What a joke.

Wasn't that (and the culture flipping) also the favorite rant of good old Encomium? I suspected this long ago, but I think this post finally outs you as his double login.

[notyoueither]

I am offended. How could that happen to a Roman? Did you feed Mars?

On a serious note, I still want to know just how the heck the citizens of Maintz (sp?) could destroy Patton's Third Army without Patton having something to say about it. You did say 14 units, right?

I hate like h*ll to say it Sn00py, but I haven't seen it in a looooong time. 1.07 in fact.

That is my line isn't it?

[kailhun]

Originally posted by Akron


I've had several instances where a city that i captured culturally flips even though the enemy civ is on a tiny island on the other side of the map.

Seriously, if there are 3 or more troops in a city, cultural flipping should very rarely happen.

I had a city flip when the only thing left was a settler on a ship. Couldn't kill the settler because that crashed the game (back then).
It was the capital with Wonders in it. I understand these flip more easily because of the large amount of foreign culture they build up.

Sometimes a garisson of one works better then fifteen. I had a city flip once, then reloaded and moved everyone out except one. This time it stayed.

Robert

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Sn00py
ok, I am roman, the white guys, the greeks are the green guys and as you can see my cities are much larger than theirs and this is just an island, this piece of land is not our main land.

Also you'll notice that Herakleia has rubber (one of two in the whole game), and since I didn't have any, I decided I better take it or get lost in time. So I thought I'll do it the 'nice' way, the american way; and culturally take their two close cities. First I investigated the cities to see how much culture they had and how much I might need in order to take them. They both had a temple and that's it for their culture. So I thought, great, I'll just build a temple, colleseum and a cathedral in both my cities and take them over that way. It never came to pass and time was moving on, so I thought stuff it, I'll go to war.

When I took that city, it was a size 4, coz I had used artillery on it.

I got order back in the city, built a temple on the next turn and thought it was mine forever. But on the next turn, it flipped back to Greece.

The only reason I didn't demolish the city is because I needed that rubber asap to hold off against the greeks when they start to mobilize (which didn't take them long ).

maybe the paris analogy was not a good one, but seriously, shouldn't my armies have the control of the people, rather than the people have control of my armies?


btw some might be wondering why I am not using my gfx, and that is becoz I am starting on the new one. so I have to reset the terrain gfx back to normal.

well, it would be more useful to see a pic (or better yet, a save...) from just before the flip. If there are tiles of Greek territory in the city radius, they count just as much as citizens. So if there were four Greek squares in your radius and four Greek citizens, you would have needed 16 combat (don't count artillery) units (assuming your overall culture is at least equal to their's) to have no chance of a flip. Of course, the probability goes down with each unit added to the city. So if you had 14 units, the probability of a flip was probably < 1%. But it happens...

I should also add that in the scenario I just outlined, if you had twice the total culture of the Greeks, you would have only needed 8 units. If you had 3 times their culture, 6 units. 4 times, 4 units...

[Jon Miller]

I havr always wa*ted to k*ow this

Jo* Miller

[Arrian]

Something wrong with your "n" Jon?

Soren, thanks for the answer. What about proximity to the capitols? Say their capitol is 12 squares away and yours is 24. Will that cancel out a 2 to 1 culture ratio in your favor?

The culture issue, btw, is why I think religious/militaristic is the best combo for war.

-Arrian

[petey]

I like the way that culture flipping works.

It forces you to have to deal with the cities that you've just captured and not just take them over and then run on to another city the next turn. You have to spend some time, units and energy to hold the city rather than just have a massive blitzkreig across the continent. It adds another element to the game play that forces you to go beyond the attack, attack, attack strategy that is the hallmark of so many computer games.

Yes, it is annoying when you're running over an AI's civ and then have to turn around and retake a city or two, but it forces you to add more elements to your startegy and makes for a richer gaming experience. In my present game, two Russian cities flipped back during the same turn just as I was about to drive them off the continent. It bugged me and I lost the units that were garrisonned there, but it made me have change my short-term strategy to deal with it and added more to the game.

In terms of having a unit attack your garrison like in Civ2, it just means that you could ignore the problem if you're stronger than your enemy. The way it is, the game can throw you a curveball and force you to react in a way you didn't plan for. It makes it more fun.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

How much influence does a city's old culture come into play? Say a town only has a temple, but that temple is 1200 years old, thats alot of built up culture. I've seen that when a city flips that it resumes it's original cultural border. So after capturing a city, even rush building a temple and library, it will take a long time to equal the original civs culture.

For the record, I hate when a city flips, but snce I understand its a possibility, then its my own fault for not taking precautions against the flip. I havent had too much problem since 1.17. The worst I lost was a city with 6 heavily damaged units in it. Does the strength of the garrison units matter at all? Does a 1-hp remaning spearman count the same as a full strength elite mech inf?

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Another thing I havent figured out is when 2 rival cities are fighting over cultural control of tiles, it seems that these tiles can flip flop alot. What determines which civ controls a tile?

[punkbass2000]

Well, assuming the two cities are equal distance from the given square, it goes to whichever has the higher culture in my experience.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
well, it would be more useful to see a pic (or better yet, a save...) from just before the flip. If there are tiles of Greek territory in the city radius, they count just as much as citizens. So if there were four Greek squares in your radius and four Greek citizens, you would have needed 16 combat (don't count artillery) units (assuming your overall culture is at least equal to their's) to have no chance of a flip. Of course, the probability goes down with each unit added to the city. So if you had 14 units, the probability of a flip was probably < 1%. But it happens...

I should also add that in the scenario I just outlined, if you had twice the total culture of the Greeks, you would have only needed 8 units. If you had 3 times their culture, 6 units. 4 times, 4 units...

Soren, this seems like an afwully simplified desription compared to factors we were told affected flips in prior versions. Has it really been this simplified in game, where the only factors are other-civ citizens, other-civ squares, military forces, and overall civ cultural amounts? I believe other factors previously mentioned included distance to capitols, and city specific culture. It would be nice to know if building a temple is no longer necessary to prevent a flip (or even has any effect at all), just stocking up enough military.

Also, in my latest game I have a city with 4 greek citizens (only) and four squares in zulu territory. Do 8 military units counter the flip chance to each civ, or do I need 16 (assuming no other factors)?

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Arrian
Something wrong with your "n" Jon?

Soren, thanks for the answer. What about proximity to the capitols? Say their capitol is 12 squares away and yours is 24. Will that cancel out a 2 to 1 culture ratio in your favor?

The culture issue, btw, is why I think religious/militaristic is the best combo for war.

-Arrian

The capital factor affects how big the "die" is, if that makes sense. For example, in the case above, there are 4 greek citizens and 4 greek tiles. That equals 8, which is then doubled because Greek culture _in that city_ is greater than Roman culture in that city. So that is 16. Let's say Snoopy has 4 units and has twice as much total culture as the Greeks. That would be 16 - (4 X 2) = 8. So if we "roll" an 8 or less, the city flip. How big are the dice? Well, it depends on the distance to the two capitals, but it ranges from two extremes of 500 and 8000 (for an average of 2000...), so in the average case, the probability of a flip would be 8/2000, which is 0.4%.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Well, assuming the two cities are equal distance from the given square, it goes to whichever has the higher culture in my experience.

correct.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Fitz


Soren, this seems like an afwully simplified desription compared to factors we were told affected flips in prior versions. Has it really been this simplified in game, where the only factors are other-civ citizens, other-civ squares, military forces, and overall civ cultural amounts? I believe other factors previously mentioned included distance to capitols, and city specific culture. It would be nice to know if building a temple is no longer necessary to prevent a flip (or even has any effect at all), just stocking up enough military.

Also, in my latest game I have a city with 4 greek citizens (only) and four squares in zulu territory. Do 8 military units counter the flip chance to each civ, or do I need 16 (assuming no other factors)?

yes, all these factors still affect the flip. (I tried to keep the example simple...) An important one is having more culture in that city than the previous owner. If you don't, the value of the citizens and tiles is doubled for the flip calculations. Being in civil disorder also doubles their value. Being in WLTKD halves their values. I explained the capital factor is a previous post.