Best AI I have ever seen hands down!

PrinceBimz · April 26, 2002, 02:57

It is kicking the living daylights out of me! I cannot even come close to winning a game and thats on Regent level. I have played all the CIV games and CTP series, never have I been beat so bad. Its like I am doing ok I guess until another nation declares war on me. Then they bring huge and I am talking huge amounts of units and they just don't stop. They keep on and on coming at me then sometimes when they take over one of my important cities they burn it down! Talk about P.O. me!

It seems I do better at CIV3 being a coward and avoiding wars and answering the demands of nations who threaten me. I always end up having 2, 3 or more nations at once declaring war on me. Its like they watch one nation attacking me and think "hey that looks like fun, let me go and beat the piss out of him too"... LOL. Then one nation after another declares war on me and I have the whole world sending units at me from everywhere.

I have been playing the world settings on random everything. I setup everything to be random and pick large size world and all nations set to random too. I find each of my games extremely different with all random settings. Anyway, CIV3 is one challenging freaking game and I have never once remember any of the other ones being like this. I would not be surprised if one day when I see another of one my cities burned down, I **** back and punch my fist straight through my monitor screen

BTW, In my last game, I was actually developing deep feelings of hate towards some of the leaders. I really hated them, especially that Zulu and England leader! Now its all funny, but when I was playing the game I was really mad at them...LOL

Auwi · April 26, 2002, 03:34

I agree, they do seem to be much better at producing units. I'm having a pretty good game on Monarch, but I had to adopt the meek, diplomatic, defensive stance right from the start.

I've just been following the Egyptian juggernaut around with lots of settlers and filling in the holes they create as they raze other civ's cities. Seems to work pretty well, but that's probably only a Pangea tactic.

I guess the question is, are they actually smarter or do they just cheat more?

sugar daddy · April 26, 2002, 03:58

If you get bullied by other nations it means that they have no respect for you. Build a stronger millitary and watch them go from spitting on you to licking your boots

. I always have to control the entire continent/island I start on, but instaed of totally annihilate the other civs, I give them a peace treaty when they are almost beaten and blackmail the living c*** out of them. Then I pay them to go to war with my other enemies ( if any ). Since they now a rather pitiful nation, other civs gang up on them and usually destroy them, leaving me to take the cities without a new war declaration. But the clue is that the AI is very easy to reason with if you have a bigger millitary than him. I always build a large army even if I go for a builder strategy where I might never use it four other than negotiating purposes.

Auwi · April 26, 2002, 04:36

I don't know about that, sugar daddy. I usually play the warmonger, but the asskissing approach seems to work much better with the latest patch.

The other civs don't seem to be responding in the usual disrespectful way. Besides, you should have seen Egypt's army. Really, overpowering them was not an option.

sugar daddy · April 26, 2002, 05:38

well I havent played very much with the latest patch, but even a peace monger like myself would rather take my empire and all its people down with me than to give in to the AI if it starts demanding free techs from me. I can give in the first time, but only so I can buy time to build an army and kick their backsides ( or get mine kicked ), but hey, thats just me

thats why I love the civ-series, I get so involved. I sit at work and think : " I cant wait to get home and teach those -insert any civ who provoced me here- a lesson". I can GIVE away stuff to my allies and friends to build relations but never if they demand it...

Ethelred · April 26, 2002, 09:00

Quote:

It is kicking the living daylights out of me! I cannot even come close to winning a game and thats on Regent level. I have played all the CIV games and CTP series, never have I been beat so bad.

You probably aren't starting well. From what I have seen most of the people having trouble on Regent or lower are doing one of two things wrong.

Not building settlers and therefor cities fast enough.

Not building enough workers and not using the workers they have properly.

Mine grasslands. Irrigate plains. Road every tile in use. Only improve tiles that are in use. Road tiles that aren't in use early only to connect to cities and resources.

Build settlers and lots of them. I usually dedicate my capital to building settlers especially if there is a food bonus available. Build cities at least untill you get the Forbidden Palace notification unless you are going the warmonger route of taking cities instead of building them.

With one food bonus and to mined grassland tiles your capital can produce a settler every ten turns. I build three warriors in my capital and then settlers till I have enough cities. Its getting harder to do this on Emperor but it still works if I do everything right.

Too bad I didn't do everything right in my first game with the .121f patch. I am so far behind. I am hoping to rescue the game with railroads but I have serious doubts. I kept forgetting I was playing a religious civ and didn't go for Monarch. STUPID STUPID STUPID.

dunk · April 26, 2002, 09:04

I am in a game where I thought I was toast. I was the Chinese and the Germans attacked me. I had a very small army. Most cities only had one spearman in them and a couple had a spearman and a warrior. The Germans took my Pyramid city and two I had on neighboring islands. The map was "seaworld" which is downloaded in the Files section (good map). I had no horses or iron. So I couldn't even build Riders to whoop upon the Germans. I had to take my cities back with Longbowmen. Ugh, that was tough. But, I did it. Woo Hoo! And now I have horses, but still no iron. But, I'm almost to Military Tradition, then I'll be able to wipe the Germans off the map. Yes, I do have saltpeter. Woo Hoo! I also sit here at my exciting job waiting to go kick some butt.

sugar daddy · April 26, 2002, 09:48

You have a point Ethelred. In fact you have more than a point. If you get a good start and expand rapidly you should have no trouble from your neighbours at regent, but what if you dont get those food resources or even grassland in the beginning?? Do you restart or try to beat the odds?? With a bad starting position you probably have to do some serious asskissing. But I wouldnt know, I always restart myself untill I get a good start.

Arrian · April 26, 2002, 09:54

Sd,

No shame in getting yourself a decent starting spot, as far as I'm concerned. I'm picky as all hell when I start a new game. I want a river, I want a cow, and I want shielded grassland. AND I WANT THEM NOW!!

Well, that's what I tell my computer.

-Arrian

PrinceBimz · April 26, 2002, 10:58

sugar daddy, I find to be correct. I have noticed the other nations respect you more if you are worth respecting. I don't know what the heck the Zulus problem was though. Sometimes out of nowhere two nations will form an alliance and declare war on me. Then it appears it was something they would plan because immediately after the declaration here comes 2 massive forces of armies and some ships in the sea land more units.

I normally put most of my workers on automated and I build a good amount of them. That may not be the best thing to do on higher levels? I just find CIV3 so much more challenging. I am scared to death to play on any level higher then regent...LOL

Oerdin · April 26, 2002, 15:17

Quote:

Originally posted by PrinceBimz
It is kicking the living daylights out of me! I cannot even come close to winning a game and thats on Regent level.

If you like that then you should try CTP2 with the cradle mod. The AI is super aggressive and most people have trouble surviving much less winning.

Auwi · April 26, 2002, 15:21

I'm not picky at all about where I start out. I think dealing with the lousy hand you're dealt is supposed to be part of the "fun". I think the picky players are really missing out.

Sometimes its fun to start out weak and see how much you can overcome it with some shrewd diplomacy and trading.

In my current game I started out as the smallest civ, and it looked like the Egyptians were running away with it. Wiping them off the map wasn't a realistic option so I made some trades with them and some other civs to keep them polite or gracious. When the Chinese declared war on me, I got an alliance with the Egyptians and 3 other civs, which made those civs like me even more, and kept the Chinese completely off my back. I really think the AI are much smarter now about knowing when they're licked and why.

I'm in the end game now. Damn Egyptians beat me to the UN by 2 turns. Don't think I can beat them outright at this point, but it was FUN.

I think this situation calls for some nuclear backstabbing.

Solver · April 27, 2002, 11:30

AI is one of the reasons while I still rate Civ 3 higher than CtP 2 with MedMod/Cradle Mod. Those mods surely add much to the AI of CtP 2, but it still does act strangely somewhat. It's no longer a complete pushover, but I'm not stunned by AI's clever moves.

I'm going to play my first 1.21f version game now.

Coracle · April 27, 2002, 20:25

The AI cheats outrageously.

That does NOT mean it is smart.

Inverse Icarus · April 27, 2002, 21:57

the AI doesnt cheat on regent. thats where theres no cheats (helping or hindering the AI)

asleepathewheel · April 28, 2002, 00:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
The AI cheats outrageously.

That does NOT mean it is smart.

what does this say about people who complain about firaxis removing the multi cheat?

asleepathewheel · April 28, 2002, 00:50

I agree that the AI in Civ3 is pretty good. I've had my arse handed to me enough to know that. The AI (when it gets me) just seems to know the right time to strike. that early stage where I've overexpanded and stretched my forces. I wouldn't say that I have great skill at the game, so I can't speak for those better than me, but for me, the AI puts up quite a challenge on emperor.

PrinceBimz · April 28, 2002, 00:51

Oh, I was impressed yet again last night with the AI. What happened was America was on my same exact continent, in fact my next door neighbor and I was at war with them. First off they started beating me at my own game, that was putting artillery units supported by infantry in the hills and mountains just on the outskirts of their cities. I was using those artillery units to open fire on improvements to attempt to weaken America down. Unfortunately they started doind the same thing to me, but they had twice as many artillery units!

I was getting beaten back badly as tanks approached my cities. Then in the middle of all of this, I noticed very quickly off coast an American destroyer escorting two transport ships. Started to think now... hmmm where the heck are those ships going and what are they carring?? I was the only one at war with america at the time so I did not have an idea what they were doing. So iI played on and a few turns later I found out where those ships were heading. Would you know they had landed on the other side of the continent in China's territory? They had a right of passage with China, landed in China's territory. Moved just off the coastline and started an attack on my inland cities that I left weak. I left them weak because the war was getting hard and I needed every last unit I can get on the front where most of the fighting was going on.

Man this was the last thing I expected to happen. I mean who would ever think they would make another attack on the other side of my continent with ships??? They were my neighbors and did not even need ships to get to me. When I mean it hurt, it hurt. A full load of infantry was on each ship with a few tanks as well. I lost 2 major cities to this attack! This is something you would only expect a human player to do, certainly not an AI. Unfortunately at the time I never had one ship to my name although I had a few destroyers I purchased but they would not be ready for over 5 turns. At least if I was patrolling the seas a little with a few warships of my own I may have been able to attack and sink them before they was able to make a landing. People, this AI is really good and its things like this that really shows the work Firaxis has put into it.

Skanky Burns · April 28, 2002, 00:56

Soren really has done a good job with the AI.

Just be glad he hasn't programmed it to learn new tactics...

Herr David · April 28, 2002, 06:58

I also hate it when AI ships roam at random around my coastline... that's why I like the Cruise missiles - their range sucks and they're totally useless in land combat, but the one mission they never fail at is knocking out enemy ships - if you have railroads around your coastline, you can wipe out an enemy landing fleet (1 escort + 2 transport) with a handful of cruise missiles. Of course I'd much rather have a Navy of my own, but since ships are so f*cking slow more often than not I find myself defenseless against these pesky raid fleets. My ships are always somewhere else...

Solver · April 28, 2002, 08:27

I have had a game where I managed an amazing comeback, and even winning the game by Space, while being in a very bad situation at two points. Maybe the AI should continue to pursue me if it sees that I can be killed easily, without agreeing to peace.

But great work Soren!

problem_child · April 28, 2002, 11:23

I'm impressed with the AI too, and I think there's a distinction between cheats that you can let the AI have (seeing how it lacks an organic brain) and cheats that suck the fun out the game.

Currently I'm playing the standard earth map scenario, but with 16 civs instead of 8, 3rd level difficulty and I'm playing as Germany, and live in northern europe and scandanavia, (centered pretty much where germany really is) France is where russia and china really are, greece is where greece turkey and the caucases really is, former-yugoslavia etc, and America is in north africa and the middle east.

Here's the thing- I've been playing a peaceful game so far, I usually play as Persia but I want the Panzers, so untill that point I'm keeping a low profile and quietly building the nations infrastructure. France had been the main superpower untill recently, dominating central asia, but then America- second most powerful state in the world declared war on France, France could probably have dealt with that- but America then forms alliances with Persia (central Africa) and Zululand (southern africa!)
I send explorers into the mountains of Greece to watch the fight- just in time to see columns of American and Persian infantry pouring up from the middle east and into Greece to engage colums of french riflemen headed south- soon they are joined by small Zulu rifle units. A fairly respectable fight then ensues but pretty soon the French are on the defensive.

The Africa-Axis push the French back. Eventually the French actually begin to retreat from Greece and hold their positions just north of the mountains and over the French border in and around the city of Delphi.

Its about that time that America buys the Iroquoi (Indian subcontinent) and Babylon ( north korea and east coast russia) into the war against France.

Now France is the subject of an American led coalition invasion, (there goes my rich spend-happy wine customer i'm thinking) and their taking heavy losses, and the yanks are taking relatively light losses becouse their lakeys are doing most of the fighting for them, although they have sent substantial forces into the theatre.

The coalition now presents a broad southern front, of four main prongs, taking up advance positions in the mountains (of Afganistan and Pakistan I think), and France only has the Aztecs (far east Asia, thailand) to lend them support.

Soon Greece, small tiny little state that it is- is invited to join the fray, and with my Explorers observing unfolding events I watch as the once mighty France losses its saltpeter supply near the french city of Delphi, its leveled by the coalition forces, and then France losses a further four cities. Good for the coalition- especially the Africa-Axis as their supply lines have been stretched untill that point. Now they have bases much nearer to the theatre.

The great Franco-American war of 1555 rages on (its now the early 1600s). Persia and Babylon have made their peace with France, but America and its remaining lakeys march on. If France can rercover and make peace it will still be a respectable state (whats left of it) mainly its economy has been pulverised by the war thus far- mass conscription, pilaging of invading armies, luxury trade network brocken down, and RAM knows what they had to pay Persia and Babylon to get peace...

America has already demanded money from me- so I gave them what they wanted, I saw what they did to France, and untill I have Panzers and enough money to ensure peace with Americas allies- I will continue to say "Sir" at the start and end of every sentence exchanged with America. Once I do have the Panzers though- then the Africa-Axis shall reap the seeds of war! (I like to tell myself).

Still, gotta hand it to the Yanks, their country is mainly desert and some hills, whereas France is/was a vast expanse of grassland and plains, not bad for AI.

Inverse Icarus · April 28, 2002, 22:00

i'm not going to deny that soren made an AI vastly superior to civ2, i'm fairly sure no one will.

but i really expected more. maybe i'm just an idiot, maybe soren was rushed, whatever. i expected an AI that would learn and adapt.

my first few gaems i've actually see the AIs make a few offensives that left me on my toes, but i never lost an undefended city to an ai (aside from stupid culture flipping).

Coracle · April 29, 2002, 01:55

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
i'm not going to deny that soren made an AI vastly superior to civ2, i'm fairly sure no one will.

but i really expected more. maybe i'm just an idiot, maybe soren was rushed, whatever. i expected an AI that would learn and adapt.

my first few gaems i've actually see the AIs make a few offensives that left me on my toes, but i never lost an undefended city to an ai (aside from stupid culture flipping).

Indeed so.

Culture Flipping was and is a braindead idea, historically nonsense and in game turns a joke.

Compared to the AI in Civ 2 - over five years ago - the AI in Civ 3 is NOT that advanced, not considering all those years.

Remember the AI in Civ 2 building battleships in lakes? The AI in Civ 3 also does it. I've seen it. The AI enemy civ did it, and so did my idiot governor.

Ethelred · April 29, 2002, 04:52

Quote:

Remember the AI in Civ 2 building battleships in lakes? The AI in Civ 3 also does it. I've seen it. The AI enemy civ did it, and so did my idiot governor.

Haven't you ever noticed they aren't lakes. You cannot build a ship or a harbor on a lake. Its an inland sea. It can even be usefull to build a ship on one in the right circumstances.

What the heck were doing allowing the governor to build ships anyway? Don't let governors build units except on a city by city basis or you will get all kinds of things you didn't want. Take control of your game instead of letting it control you.

notyoueither · April 29, 2002, 05:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Remember the AI in Civ 2 building battleships in lakes? The AI in Civ 3 also does it. I've seen it. The AI enemy civ did it, and so did my idiot governor.

You are either lying or stupid.

I'll put money on one of those options.

Skanky Burns · April 29, 2002, 07:21

NYE
Thats one bet I'm sure you will win

Quote:

i expected an AI that would learn and adapt.

You do realise how difficult that is, don't you?

Harovan · April 29, 2002, 07:46

I agree with the title of this thread, the AI is very good

. Although I would say it a bit more specific. Sure, there could be more "intellect" in it, or even some kind of learning. But, people, many of you complain that the game is too slow, and such advanced features in a game as complex as Civ3 is would either be very slow or demand a far better hardware and it would certainly cost more than $50 a license. So let me say it more precise: Best AI you can expect running on PC hardware and worth up to 50 bucks per license.

By the way, responses to Encomium/Coracle are a waste of time.

Ethelred · April 29, 2002, 07:47

Derek Smart promised that kind of AI for Battle Cruiser. Look at what it got him.

LaRusso · April 29, 2002, 10:04

i am trying to pull one monarch game as a chinese on 1.21, random, 12 civs (one large continent, and two smaller, very wet and very young and mountainous). its really tough. i am currently doing quite well, managed to get a GL, get decent research and pulled one tech ahead.
i have watched some really amazing AI wars and , once i built Iron Works and Hoover Dam, decided to weigh my compact civ (7 cities, against the might of the Egyptians (ca. 12). i entered MPP with japanese (my northern strong neighbour), and the remnants of greek and french. i also enlisted overseas german superpower, always ready to pounce for 1000 gold of bribe.
the trick was that i had no tanks yet, and the defensive techs were much better. so i built masses of infantry and ca 40 arty pieces and took the hills around their cities, mercilessly pounding them and finally charging with my inf against their inf only when they were in red and i had a chance that 2-1 odds will result in capture. meanwhile, tons of my infantry were crawling over their territory, immune to their cavalry and inf attacks, pillaging everything in site, while their comparable incursions were met with the barrage of my arty fire. i managed to take two major cities (reduced to rubble) and quickly bring in my workers to tilt the cultural balance, and the third city was given as a peace concession. i cannot wait for the modern armor and invite my japanese friends to first finish the egyptians off and then take on the german-american coalition.