Best AI I have ever seen hands down!

[Auwi]

I've seen the AI build at least one ship in a lake. But it was a very large lake. What constitutes a "lake" or "sea" in the game? Is the largest body of water "the ocean" simply because its larger? That seems awfully arbitrary.

[notyoueither]

The body of water needs to contain Sea tiles. You can have inland seas, I wouldn't call them lakes. Very often they will be seperated from the major water mass by a single land tile in several places. Build a city, call it Constantinople and call the sea Black.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Auwi
I've seen the AI build at least one ship in a lake. But it was a very large lake. What constitutes a "lake" or "sea" in the game? Is the largest body of water "the ocean" simply because its larger? That seems awfully arbitrary.

It is arbitrary. But so are the definitions in real life. Why are there four oceans? Who knows? They're all connected.

[LaRusso]

whoever says ai is stupid should have watched how @#!@ bismarck fought off my invasion on his continent
bastard

[Solver]

Hey Soren I saw you read this thread, so reply now .

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Solver
Hey Soren I saw you read this thread, so reply now .

well, this thread was hard to resist. [blush]

[PrinceBimz]

Well people, my game has come to an end. I did not do very well at all, scoring a lowsey 717 I managed to survive and I mean barley. I kissed major butt and I had no choice but to do so. America was extremely powerful in that game and just next door to me. Tanks in line one after another waited on my borders like a lion stalking his prey. The Bombers...my god did they have bombers...everywhere and they were continuously bombing my area improvements, cities, and everything. I was so weakened down and my economy was torn apart not to mention starvation in a few cities. Those planes took a major toll on me. If only I had some fighters, but no and even if I did I am sure my economy would not allow very much of them.

Out at sea, American battleships and French destroyers pounded my shoreline destroying improvements one after another. The rails I was using to bring in troops from my inland cities were destroyed and that became a major problem because I could not get reinforcement troops to my coastal city fast enough. Finally I ended up losing my last coastal city, that was after nearly all structures have been destroyed from the offshore battleships and the garrison very weakened. That meant no new ships for me, I had to use what I had left which was only 2 destroyers I scraped up which were eventually sunk. Of course they never stood up to well against battleships but they went down fighting. Maybe if I had a few bombers of my own, I could have bombed the battleships and damaged them enough so the destroyers could have had a chance. Oh well, fun game and I am going to be starting another so maybe I will do better but who knows.

[notyoueither]

It sounds like you had a h*ll of a lot of fun while you were going down. And you didn't quit. Bravo.

If you want to really beat the AI like a rented mule though... Oh, Soren's watching...

[Solver]

at Soren. I'm just curious, do you also read threads bashing the AI or only the ones saying you did good work? I assume it must be very unpleasing to read something bashing YOUR child.

[Theseus]

I have a sneaking suspicion...

"Power" calculations may now include the weighted strength of units.

Soren thought it would be more fun as a surprise, rather than noting it in the readme.

[Solver]

BTW I also never quit, I fight to the end, or at least almost till the end. And I do partially enjoy when AI beats over me.

Prince, what level was that?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Theseus
I have a sneaking suspicion...

"Power" calculations may now include the weighted strength of units.

I have the same suspicion. At least you can't fool the AI with scouts and workers anymore. Another good 1.21f change

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


I have the same suspicion. At least you can't fool the AI with scouts and workers anymore. Another good 1.21f change

I didn't notice that. Thats pretty cool. A good change.

[PrinceBimz]

Solver, it was Regent level with all settings on random, huge map and max civs. Certainly not the hardest level...LOL Anyway, I had one game I played a while back and I had one last city. I started a war in the very beginning with Egypt and I got all the way down to one last city. I worked with that city for a few hours before Perisa got pissed and finally destroyed me. I actually was still trying to play even down to that one city which was a size one when it was the last one left! I worked it up to size 5 before it got taken over.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by PrinceBimz
Solver, it was Regent level with all settings on random, huge map and max civs. Certainly not the hardest level...LOL Anyway, I had one game I played a while back and I had one last city. I started a war in the very beginning with Egypt and I got all the way down to one last city. I worked with that city for a few hours before Perisa got pissed and finally destroyed me. I actually was still trying to play even down to that one city which was a size one when it was the last one left! I worked it up to size 5 before it got taken over.

for a real enjoyment, whenever playing with more than 8 civs, slow tech a bit and decrease AI to AI trading. That will REALLY spice up the game, you get to test all the cool weapons, plus miniscule AI civs dont have better techs than you. It provides for some really interesting eras, where defensive units outmatch offensive for like 100 years so you actually wage attrition wars. Try it!

[problem_child]

LaRusso, slow tech by how much? slowest from 40 to 50 turns and fastest 4 to 5 turns or what?

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by PrinceBimz
... Tanks in line one after another waited on my borders like a lion stalking his prey. The Bombers...my god did they have bombers...everywhere and they were continuously bombing my area improvements, cities, and everything. I was so weakened down and my economy was torn apart not to mention starvation in a few cities. Those planes took a major toll on me. If only I had some fighters, but no and even if I did I am sure my economy would not allow very much of them.

Out at sea, American battleships and French destroyers pounded my shoreline destroying improvements one after another. The rails I was using to bring in troops from my inland cities were destroyed and that became a major problem because I could not get reinforcement troops to my coastal city fast enough. ...

I have been caught a few times badly like that, but I have learned a few tactics to help prevent this situation.

First, you need to boost the economy so that you can afford a large military. This is more important than keeping up in tech, since you can always buy you're way up the tech ladder. As long as you don't slip too far behind. Lots of roads and railroads, marketplace, banks, luxuries, etc. If you need an early boost, try packing you're early cities a bit closer (e.g. every 4 spaces).

The bombers are a real problem on the front line, so early Flight discovery is essential to build fighters. The AI will back off, once they start losing bombers. To make this happen, the economy must be in full swing by mid-Industrial era so that you can spend ~80% on science. It is often better to start building fighters before tanks (researching Flight before MT) to prevent losing all those improvements.

Regarding battleships, I like lots of artillery and railroads to allow them to move quickly around my coast and bombard them as they get close. The wounded battleshps will go home, but it's nice when you can scoot out with a small fleet and finish them off. Can artillery kill ships now or just ship bombardment?

Also with a good supply of money you can afford to have a strong MPP. Makes those other civs think twice about attacking you. If you are a little weak yet, then it is usually best to make you're immediate neighbor (and biggest threat) you're MPP. If war breaks out, often it is away from you're border cities.

When you are at full strength economy/military you may decide to switch MMPs to the civ on the far side and take out the middle man, before he gets too strong.

Regarding the AI, I think it's great.

[Flanker]

Why can´t I play interesting and challenging games like that? They seem so - complex in a kind of way. My games are often so that I´m just behind in tech all the way to the modern age, but then I go beyond the AI and when there are no more crucial buildings to be built (I´m a builder) I start building up a large army. However, I very seldom find the AI to be very complex, it would be really cool if it used combined arms and made a lot of resistance. Now it usually only hides in the cities waiting for me to knock on the door... It usually takes me a while to take over the cities, but I almost always do that sooner or later. And that´s on monarch level...

[Solver]

My most interesting and challenging moments are into the Modern Age, and the Modern Age is short.... this is exactly why a refined Modern Age is one of my most important expectations for XP.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by problem_child
LaRusso, slow tech by how much? slowest from 40 to 50 turns and fastest 4 to 5 turns or what?

by slow i meant increase tech rate a bit....e.g. by 20 or 40 points. that will just make the research slower, without twiddling with the caps

AI to AI decrease is the key. i lowered it to 115 and they still trade like mad on 12 civs, standard.

[Kataphraktoi]

Best AI I have ever seen hands down!

an AI that cheats an insane ammount hardly seems a good AI to me.good AI=can have half a chance WITHOUT all the cheating crap.

[Ethelred]

Out of curiosity just what constitutes an insane amount of cheating. It sure cheats less than Civ II ever did.

You know if you are having a hard time surviving in the game you can ask for help.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Out of curiosity just what constitutes an insane amount of cheating. It sure cheats less than Civ II ever did.

You know if you are having a hard time surviving in the game you can ask for help.

Civ 3 cheating does not require your "help". It requires a better AI, one that does fewer stupid things that detracts from the game.

I spent five years playing Civ 2 and NO WAY IN HELL does it cheat as much as Civ 3.

Civ 2 increased combat results percentages in favor of the AI at higher levels. It did not constantly break its own rules, make the AI all-knowing, or have ocean-going galleys that can teleport themselves anywhere on the globe. I recall no one complainig about AI cheating in Civ 2.

NO MORE EXCUSES FOR BAD PROGRAMMING. The Civ 3 AI is a disappointment.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Coracle
Civ 3 cheating does not require your "help". It requires a better AI, one that does fewer stupid things that detracts from the game.

That is not even close to related to the question.

I spent five years playing Civ 2 and NO WAY IN HELL does it cheat as much as Civ 3.

Few agree with you. The AI didn't even actually build stuff in Civ II. It just faked it.

Civ 2 increased combat results percentages in favor of the AI at higher levels. It did not constantly break its own rules,

You just said they increased the combat results. Now that is cheating. Loaded dice is cheating. Not the only trick played either.

make the AI all-knowing,

Civ III does not do that.

or have ocean-going galleys that can teleport themselves anywhere on the globe. I recall no one complainig about AI cheating in Civ 2.

You also see ocean going galleys where none exist. I have pointed that out to you before. Considering that alone shows you to be a poor observer I suspect you simply have ignore the MANY statements by MANY people clearly showing just how often the game cheated in Civ II.

NO MORE EXCUSES FOR BAD PROGRAMMING. The Civ 3 AI is a disappointment.

How you stop with the fairy stories about imortal ocean going galleys. I have watched them sink. I have travelled accross the oceans in galleys before the AI has left sight of land.

[Skanky Burns]

Yes, it definately cheats less than the Civ 2 AI. Plus it has decent path-finding skills. Its military estimation needs some fine-tuning (so weak civs don't think they are superior and declare war, thereby guaranteeing their defeat).

[Kataphraktoi]

You know if you are having a hard time surviving in the game you can ask for help

its not that its to hard.its that it cheats to much.any cheating at all is to much IMO anyway.besides that,its not very fun to play.

[Ethelred]

its that it cheats to much.

I am still waiting for you tell just what in the game constitutes an insane amount of cheating. I know that Coracle has some major fantasies in this regard. He thinks there are imortal gallys for instance and that is false.

Did you ever play Civ II for instance and didn't you notice that it has much more cheating than Civ III?

Did you ever play ANY turn based civ type game including Master of Orion? They ALL cheat more than Civ III.

[Arrian]

So play on levels where it doesn't cheat - Regent or below. Or, if you don't find the game enjoyable, as you say in your post, play something else.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cataphract887
its not that its to hard.its that it cheats to much.any cheating at all is to much IMO anyway.besides that,its not very fun to play.

There has been a thread about proven AI cheats, IIRC in December or January. They found whole 2, not more, and even these you may call unfair advantages, but not cheats.

#1 - The AI knows about resource location before it gets the appropriate tech; even if it doesn't exactly know WHAT's there, it knows THAT there is something.

#2 - The AI knows all troup locations.

Both can be used to your advantage. In the first, just use the AI as your scout, look at the patch of desert where it insists to settle, block it and settle yourself there. Or let it settle and take the city later. The second, have a bunch of fast units (horsemen, MW's, impis or alike) on a road running between your border cities when the AI attacks and you're short of units. It always goes for the weakest defended, so you can send it around, and fool it long enough to build a decent army.

Even though Encomium/Coracle insists on it, there's no early ocean going galley. I also saw the AI galleys sink on attempts to cross sea and ocean tiles. The AI galleys, and yours too, get sea going with Astronomy or the Lighthouse, and ocean going with Navigation or Magnetism. Try to trade maps with the AI, you'll never see tiles revealed that it shouldn't know.

Also, the Civ3 combat dice are not loaded to the AI's advantage (unlike Civ2). Countless tests have proven this.

So tell me, where do you think the AI cheats, far from the examples I gave you?

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


#2 - The AI knows all troup locations.

This one I doubt. I have seen that the AI has to reach the same visual range I do before they turn back after I block them. As soon as the reach visual range they turn back.

They do seem to know things about tech though. They know how far allong I am in research or they couldn't tell what something is worth. It may be through the Foreign Advisor routine though which would give the AI the same source of information I have. I see this more a need than a cheat. There has to be someway for the AI to decide what things are worth.