What are the most powerful and influential countries?

[Serb]

Anyway Heresson, your mighty warriors just failed miserably yesterday, ending the epic battle 8-0.. for finns

My congrats,
but you shouldn't say this. When he apear you'll be forced to hear an entire lecture about how it's not true and about that they actully kicked Finn's asses, but finaly only lack of luck prevented Polish victory over Finns. And after that a little analisys of Finn's better geografical place in compare with Poland. Just be ready for this when he return.

[Sliparac]

Chechnya

[Pekka]

Hahaha Thanks for the warning Serb. I'll be sure to sleep and not consume any energy for that one.
I actually read the whole thread, and got interested about some of your relations between Poland. Unfortunately you both have different vision how things went, damn you!

I mean military. Russian has had always a strong army, but Poland? I really don't know about it, only thing i've read was that it was defeated quite fast in conflicts.. I might be wrong, but that's the impression i have.

[Serb]

Chechnya

[Pekka]

Heresson, if you feel like it, you can correct me. What about the state of the army in Poland these days? is it good or bad?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Pekka

I actually read the whole thread, and got interested about some of your relations between Poland. Unfortunately you both have different vision how things went, damn you!

It's not surprise. Russians and Poles are one of the oldest enemies of each other. We fought against each other many times during our history and of course we have different versions.

I mean military. Russian has had always a strong army, but Poland? I really don't know about it, only thing i've read was that it was defeated quite fast in conflicts.. I might be wrong, but that's the impression i have.

In deep past (before Poland was devided between Russia, Austria and Prussia) they had really strong military force and gave a lot of troubles for us.

[Pekka]

Yes, reading this thread let me know that Poland was a big country. Why are you the oldest enemies? Is there big reasons? What about now, do you still consider each other as enemies in any way? Do you consider Poland as a threat?
And is their army to be taken seriously?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Pekka
Why are you the oldest enemies?

They always wanted to conquer us and even were pretty close to this goal when they captured our capital.

Is there big reasons?

War for space between two empires.

What about now, do you still consider each other as enemies in any way?

We are do not consider them as enemies, don't know about Poles. (but something tells me that most of them consider us as barbarians)

Do you consider Poland as a threat?

NO.

And is their army to be taken seriously?

Which army?

[Heresson]

"No you are not, you are just like Luke. All you Poles are the same- a Russia-haters."

I do not hate Russia. I was in Russia shortely before end of USSR and liked it a lot.
I was waviung to the Russian army going to calm down Caucasus and had a conversation with one Russsian general...
I like You! Of all Slavic nations the only ones I can say I dislike a bit are Czechs.
Little traitors.

"Jealos Polsh panovy, who apolgaise that they were unable to destroy Russia when they had opportunity."

It's Luke. Anyway no-one wanted to destroy Russia. There was strong pro-Russian lobby in I Republics, and tzar was a constant candidate for the crown in Poland; in fact, king Wladyslaw IV was the tzar, though not crowned. He could have gone there
and he wanted, but his father, king ZygmuntIII didn't let him; either he wanted to be tzar himself or he was afraid thta his son on the Moscovite throne would end as several earlier tzars ended, murdered. No-one ever tried in Poland to destroy You.
Polish kings sometimes wanted to attack someone, but gentry generally was against any wars, busy with grain trade.
Note; Poland, when conquered Moscow and put Dymitr on yur throne, took just Smole?sk, earlier captured,
and monted alliance against Sweden. That was our greatest enemy. And Turkey. But You didn't want to help fellow Slavic
country.

"Without nukes spaceships and any political influence."

Our economy is much better condition than yours. Your political influence isn't all
that big. Your spaceships are falling aparts. Bierut wanted to have nukes, but he was murdered
in Moscow.

"A quote originaly posted by Heresson: "You just have luck You are so big. ""

It's sth different. You read words, not the meaning. It doesn't mean You have luck,
but that without being so big You wouldn't be so strong. Again.
Everyone has luck and bad luck. Russia too. I would never blame Polish misfortunes on
bad luck. In fact, we like to criticise ourseles that it's all our fault. But not if someone say it,
at least no-one of partagers.

"There were Russian forces prepaired for war (with Belgium), and Poles managed to kick your ass many times and not be defeated until Ostroleka battle, which changed everything. "

It's nothing about luck here. It just means that part of Poland was a godny przeciwnik
for Russia and though it was eventually defeated, the victory wasn't easy.

"All your claims about good geografical position of core Russia as for me sounds like looser's whine. At the down of our history we was not big and we have no big population.

You were big. Very big.

"You have lost your riches provinces to Germany?
Oh, no what a tragedy, poor Poles."

Yes. Once You have right.

"Do have any idea how many times Russia was invaded by foreign conquers?"

Not as many times as Poland was. And invaders were most often much weaker than You and their attack was a way to defend themselves. Only Mongols, Hitler and eventually Napoleon was a serious threat to your being.

"Don't you realize the fact that Russia formed as united country only after we kicked Mongol's asses after almost 300 years of their ocuppation of our lands? "

And what? Mongols destroyed our state too. You didn't have much more problems than them and later Lithuania.
But Lithuania was big and weak.
We had Mongols, Germans of all kinds, Czechs, Hungarians and Lithuanians as the enemy

"Barbarians you can see everytime when you walk on Warsaw's streets."

Yes, indeed there are many Russian traders in Warsaw, he he he


"I know nothing about things you described about Russian atrocities in Grodno, may be it's only my lack of knowledge (more lickely a Polish propaganda), but I'm absolutely sure that your invasion forces at begining of XVII acted like real barbarians- burn cities, killed womens, chilldren and elders. "

Not at all. hetman ?ó?kiewski ordered soldiers to act gently, as Poland wanted alliance with Russia.
All atrocities were made by Lisowczycy, but they weren't royal army. They were bandites and were pillages lands belongig to Poland too. It was different when it comes to Russians. 9-day fire in Wilno...
Somehow Russian soldiers always like to destroy what is nice. I told You about Lubi??, where You were chopping
0-class monuments of architecture and burn them to get warm instead of chopping trees outside the monastery...

"That's why you took those land? Because you have more right for those lands then Ukrainians and Belorussians. Both of those republic was two of the 4 founders of Soviet Union. If you took those lands it means that you took Soviet's land. That's why it's intervention."

the same I can say that this war was Russian intervention in Poland. This land was discussed
and we had the same right to it as Byelorussians or Ukrainians.
Becouse there were Poles there. "Western Ukraine" was as much Ukrainian as Polish. Poles were majority in Podole region.
Were we supposed to leave them to be killed as "polsh panovye" and "jesuites" by Ruthenian enragedpeasants?

"don't want to waste my time. You deny pure facts,"

You do that. At least You do that too

"by defenition have a huge experience of wars with distanced enemy)."

Hey! You underestimate your own state. You can not compare Russia of that time to Zulus warriors.

"Don't twist facts.
Now you gone say that there was no foreign intervention after Bolshevik's revolution. "

French, English -OK. But Polish, Romanian - You can call it the best part of the civil war.

Wich years? I guess you are talking about beggining of XVIII century?

No, a half of it.

"You might call it anyhow, nbut as for me if someone comes to my country with arms to concqer it, then it's called an intervention. "

No-one wanted to conquer "your land". Not a piece of Russia.
The lands Poland argued about was the same Polish country as Ukrainian/Byelorussian.
And not yours, You are Russian. OK. You were part of USSR. Still, those lands were as much ours as yours.

"Poles are perhaps the most greedy people I ever so in my life. Russians never was greedy, sometimes I consider this as disadvantage."

I've heard that You have such opinion about us
But it was USSR that was taking everything out of occupied by them lands after ww2.
Artwork, industry... I doubt any other state would do such things.

"We never will pay to you any contributions."

We didn't push You to pay. You see, we are not greedy.

"I said "it save your asses this time", and it's true. But in perspective you suck as warriors in compare with us.

What do You have as the proof? I see nothing. Russia was never able to conquer anything of a comparable
might. You had good army in XVIII and XIX century indeed, but still You didn't use it effectively.

"Enlighten me please when we lost Poland durinng WWI, in wich year? "

1915 dear Russian friend.

"I talking about resistance not about actual conquest. When we conqered Caucasus there was a lt of resistance there for decades. You remained as province of Russia without such resistance. "

Again, You can resist militarily in mountains. Not in a territory as flat as Holland.
And there are another types of resistance. We resisted - succesfully - rusification
of yours. And anyway, despite Moscow economical persecution, we were the most industrialised
and richest part of your empire.

"But then they didn't failed and made Poland a province.
Poles wanted to screwed us many times, but they always failed and will always fail."

Again, no-one ever tried to conquer Russia in Poland, as it was treated as sth impossible
and not worth effort in fact. Not that Russia wasn't worth it, I don't want to offend You,
just it would be too hard in comparison to the effort needed.

"That true.
No one can screw Russia exept Russia itself."

And Russia is very good at it... he he he

"Anyway Heresson, your mighty warriors just failed miserably yesterday, ending the epic battle 8-0.. for finns ."

Congratulations, but I'm not quite sure what is it about?
some sport, of course. Which one?
And anyway, after all there was a Finnish prince (swedish king) on our throne and Finland was the
only part of Sweden that was loyal to him. We never tried to conquer You... Keep our side!

"I really don't know about it, only thing i've read was that it was defeated quite fast in conflicts.. I might be wrong, but that's the impression i have."

that's the impression You have...
It was defeated quickly only two times; 1792, when dumb king counted that surrendering to tzarine, his
former lover, would be a better choice that fight, and in 1939 by Hitler.
We managed to defeat all our neighbours. All of them except for Russia and Germany were our provinces.

()
Serb, Sliparac ment Czeczenia by this, as an obvious example of Russian military might...

"Heresson, if you feel like it, you can correct me. What about the state of the army in Poland these days? is it good or bad?"

Hell knows. We had second strongest army in Warsaw Pact, after USSR of course.
We were supposed to conquer northern Germany and Denmark Perhaps sth more.
Now it is reduced.

It's not surprise. Russians and Poles are one of the oldest enemies of each other. We fought against each other many times during our history and of course we have different versions.

Yes. Russians got it all wrong, he he he
No, we aren't such big enemies. Before partages despite all wars relationships were quite cordial
sometimes. Even John the Dangerous and Sigimundus Augustus at the end of their life, according to the words of
the tzar, "were close to friendship". When You take into account the wars that Poland and Russia were having
at this time, it may seem strange.

"In deep past (before Poland was devided between Russia, Austria and Prussia) they had really strong military force and gave a lot of troubles for us."

And Russia also had great army. I have not so bad opinion of Russian military spirit overall,
but that one of Soviet and present times.

"They always wanted to conquer us and even were pretty close to this goal when they captured our capital."

Again, we never wanted to conquer us. Lithuania wanted, but when we dominated it, this plan dissolved
and was substituted by a plan of union.

"War for space between two empires."

WOW! We are an empire...
Anyway Russians considered us "traitors of Slavic brotherhood"
because Poland is deeply catholic.
In the earlier times, it was also about Russian transit.
Poles and Swedes didn't want Russia to access Baltic Sea, as they were taking profit out of transit through
their territory.

"We are do not consider them as enemies, don't know about Poles. (but something tells me that most of them consider us as barbarians)"

Not quite. People of eastern borders and those that had families killed by You or were thrown out of their
homes by You, indeed most often do. But generally we keep sympathy for You, as well as almost all our
neighbours. Of our "neighbours" we like the most Scandinavians and Hungarians according to the polls.
I do not consider Russians barbarians. You are a bit "wild", but that's because of vodka. And we like vodka
too. Especially that ours is better, he he he

[Arrian]

This is entertaining. Do continue.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Originally posted by Serb


I think that persons who think that Slavs are decendents of Vikings and that Kiev was founded by Vikings don't know much about our history.

Serb, I stand corrected. Ned

[Serb]

"I don't hate Russia"

Fine. As I said I don’t hate Poland too.

Anyway no-one wanted to destroy Russia.

Luke thinks otherwise.

There was strong pro-Russian lobby in I Republics, and tzar was a constant candidate for the crown in Poland; in fact, king Wladyslaw IV was the tzar, though not crowned. He could have gone there

The beginning of XVII century is known as “Smutnoe vremya” (the most close translation is time of chaos) in our history. The last tsar of Rurick’s dynasty died and he has no heirs. For 15 years Russia had no real tsar. After that time the new dynasty- the Romanov’s dynasty was founded.
To destroy us? Perhaps no, but to capture Moscow’s throne, using very good political situation, when Russia was in chaos- sure you wanted.

Note; Poland, when conquered Moscow and put Dymitr on yur throne,

It’s for you his Dmitry, for us he is Lzhe Dmitry. (False Dmitry), he was not really in charge and I guess I don’t need to tell you how he ended.

took just Smole?sk, earlier captured,

I guess it’s my turn to say- “ Hey, you captured Smolensk, but it was like an attack of 10 wolves against a rabbit and after those attack rabbit slain a lot of wolves”. You have dozen of times more troops then Smolensk’s defenders, but were not able to capture it through direct battle and have big casualties. You took Smolensk only after long blockade, when most of the defenders died because of famine and deceases. The remaining defenders prefer to explode themselves within the gunpowder warehouse, but not to surrender.

and monted alliance against Sweden. That was our greatest enemy. And Turkey. But You didn't want to help fellow Slavic country.

To help?
When your 20 000 army marched on Moscow, 40 000 of Crimean Tatar attacked southern borders of Russia, they wanted to torn their peace of Russia too, while it was in chaos.

Our economy is much better condition than yours. Your political influence isn't all that big. Your spaceships are falling aparts. Bierut wanted to have nukes, but he was murdered in Moscow.

As for economy, don’t worry it’s growing after Putin was elected, we’ll recover from disintegration of SU I can assure you. Our spaceships don’t falling apart. And I didn’t understand a word about nukes and Beirut.

It's sth different. You read words, not the meaning. It doesn't mean You have luck,

I can say the same about you.
HOW we become so big? How we was able to conquer/colonize a half of continent if we was not great warriors and have no military spirit? How we was able to control such huge territory (while you loosed parts of your empire) if we were worse then you are?

You were big. Very big.

One, single city of Moscow.
Sure it’s pretty big territory.
The gathering of Russian lands was through bloody conquest of other Russian cities-states by Moscow.

Not as many times as Poland was.

If I’ll start to count all attempts to conquer Russia it took all night, I don’t have time and any desire for it, just few examples: during 14-15 centuries Russia has: 17 wars against Lithuanian’s states.
10 wars against Germans
5 wars against Sweden
2 wars against Norwegians.

And invaders were most often much weaker than You and their attack was a way to defend themselves.

Strange concept of yours- invaders was weaker and they attacked and invaded Russia only to defend themselves. Very strange strategy, I know that I’m weaker, but anyway I’ll need to invade this country, because it’s for my own protection. What is it a strategy of insane kamikaze?

Only Mongols, Hitler and eventually Napoleon was a serious threat to your being.

Don’t underestimate your country. Polish invasion was a pretty big threat too.

We had Mongols, Germans of all kinds, Czechs, Hungarians and Lithuanians as the enemy

You just took guys from our list of enemies of those times.

All atrocities were made by Lisowczycy, but they weren't royal army. They were bandites and were pillages lands belongig to Poland too.

Not at all. Lisovskiy was just the worse of many, he burned whole towns and by cruelty, by means how he slain his victims only nazi can compare with him.

Somehow Russian soldiers always like to destroy what is nice.

The same I can say about yours.

I told You about Lubi??, where You were chopping 0-class monuments of architecture and burn them to get warm instead of chopping trees outside the monastery...

Sure those guys were from Greenpeace, not from Russian army.

Hey! You underestimate your own state. You can not compare Russia of that time to Zulus warriors.

And you underestimate Brits and French. Russia is much close to them as South Africa and it was in 20 century, an industrial age.

No-one wanted to conquer "your land". Not a piece of Russia. The lands Poland argued about was the same Polish country as Ukrainian/Byelorussian. And not yours, You are Russian. OK. You were part of USSR. Still, those lands were as much ours as yours.

The Soviet Union was not some kind of confederation it was one united country. There was no difference who are you Russian, Kazakh or Ukrainian, first of all you was a Soviet citizen.

But it was USSR that was taking everything out of occupied by them lands after ww2.

The nazi took much more when they run from SU.

We didn't push You to pay. You see, we are not greedy.

Ok, consider you convinced me.

What do You have as the proof? I see nothing. Russia was never able to conquer anything of a comparable

Then how from tiny core city-state, Russia through centuries, becomes the largest country in this world?

1915 dear Russian friend.

Funny. Then which territories we’ve lost to Germans due Brest treaty in 1918?

And Russia is very good at it... he he he

It’s our national sport. We like to put ourselves in troubles time after time. All that do not kill us make us stronger. And we always recover from crises; so don’t put us in grave yet.

Congratulations, but I'm not quite sure what is it about? some sport, of course. Which one?

Ice hockey World’s Championship.

Yes. Russians got it all wrong, he he he

Yep, sure.

Anyway Russians considered us "traitors of Slavic brotherhood" because Poland is deeply catholic.

Well, you mentioned it first. Of course you are ‘traitors of Orthodox brotherhood of Slavs’: evilgrin: it’s one of the reasons too.

I do not consider Russians barbarians. You are a bit "wild", but that's because of vodka. And we like vodka

In that case we shouldn’t have any hostility at all, we are brothers then, two glorious nations of alcoholics. Peace! Friendship! Vodka!

Especially that ours is better, he he he

Oh sure, and of course Vodka was invented in Poland.

[Ned]

Serb, What do you make of the fact that so many Chechnians had joined al Qaida in Afghanistan? Ned

[Akka]

Originally posted by Ned
Serb, What do you make of the fact that so many Chechnians had joined al Qaida in Afghanistan? Ned

I personnally would say that fanatism does not know borders and that nationality has nothing to do with it.

[Heresson]

"Luke thinks otherwise.

Perhaps.

"The beginning of XVII century is known as ?Smutnoe vremya? (the most close translation is time of chaos) in our history.

I know. It's called "wielka smuta" in Polish

"The last tsar of Rurick?s dynasty died and he has no heirs. For 15 years Russia had no real tsar. After that time the new dynasty- the Romanov?s dynasty was founded.

Note; only thanks to Poland!
he he he
If we haven't imprisoned patriarch Filaret, his son wouldn't have gained popularity.

"To destroy us? Perhaps no, but to capture Moscow?s throne, using very good political situation, when Russia was in chaos- sure you wanted.

Poland was constantly in chaos. You had one time when You had electional problems.
We had it all the time.

"It?s for you his Dmitry, for us he is Lzhe Dmitry. (False Dmitry),

In Poland too, He's called Dymitr Samozwaniec. King, which was deeply catholic
wanted to use him (note; he was a Swede and disliked Poles as well as Poles disliked him)
but the parliament didn't approve this action. But as I said You could do eveything You wanted in Poland.
So the king turned to local parliaments and some of them agreed and helped him during the war.

"he was not really in charge and I guess I don?t need to tell you how he ended.

The legend says that there was a rope tied along his genitls and he was pulled by it around
Moscow. You have such interesting ideas sometimes...

"I guess it?s my turn to say- ? Hey, you captured Smolensk, but it was like an attack of 10 wolves against a rabbit and after those attack rabbit slain a lot of wolves?. You have dozen of times more troops then Smolensk?s defenders, but were not able to capture it through direct battle and have big casualties. You took Smolensk only after long blockade, when most of the defenders died because of famine and deceases. The remaining defenders prefer to explode themselves within the gunpowder warehouse, but not to surrender.

We had such examples too. If there was not enough army in Smole?sk,
it's not because Russia was weaker, but because You didn't manage your army properly.
And is there a reason to injure an important fortress by a siege when You can take it easier way
with no damage to it? We do not send our soldiers to clear the minefield by running through it ;P

"To help?
When your 20 000 army marched on Moscow, 40 000 of Crimean Tatar attacked southern borders of Russia, they
wanted to torn their peace of Russia too, while it was in chaos.

Again, no-one wanted a piece of Russia. They just wanted to rob You.
By the way of robbing, do You know what abbreviation of
Zwiazek Bia?orusi i Rosji ( Byelorussia and Russia federation or whatever; ZBiR) means in Polish?
It means; a bandid. That's quite funny, isn't it...
Anyway, earlier Turkey attacked You in order to get Tatar lands occupied by You,
Kaza? and Astracha?, and they asked for our help in order to wip You of. Despite
our cordial relationship with Turkey, and hostile with You at this time, we didn't
help them as saw no reason to breake the peace treaty

"As for economy, don?t worry it?s growing after Putin was elected, we?ll recover from disintegration of SU I can assure you. Our spaceships don?t falling apart. And I didn?t understand a word about nukes and Beirut.

I know. Damn Putin. Strange. All good rulers of Russia were foreigners or were influenced by
western neighbours; Peter the Great (western influence), Katherine II (a German)
A shame Katherine I, a Pole, isn't as known as the ssecond one. Still Katherine II
was borned in Poland. And her son tzar Paul (I know, he was mad) climed he is the son
of Katherine and her lover king Stanis?aw A. Poniatowski...
Your spaceships... What was with Mir?
Beirut... LOL. It's Bierut, president of Poland after IIww nominated by Russians. Russian spy in fact.

"I can say the same about you.
HOW we become so big? How we was able to conquer/colonize a half of continent if we was not great warriors and have no military spirit? How we was able to control such huge territory (while you loosed parts of your empire) if we were worse
then you are?

You aren't worse. You just seem to be lazier. If any other nation had such potential as Russians,
it would rule the entire world.
How You became so big? You had no-one to oppose You around You.


"One, single city of Moscow.

W?odzimierz and other cities too.

"Sure it?s pretty big territory.
The gathering of Russian lands was through bloody conquest of other Russian cities-states by Moscow.

Not all that bloody.
I believe that the point in which history turned in favour of Russians and turned back to Lithuania
was war between Lithuania and Russia when Alexander was at reign (before 1501), and one of Your Iwans
(Srogi? The one that had Helene as a dotter). You attacked Lithuania and took a third of its territory.
Now did Alexander try to get those lands back? No. At this time, Polish king Jan Olbracht died and
Alexander instead of fighting You, came to Poland to fight for the throne. He was hopeless ruler
in fact. Too peaceful.

"If I?ll start to count all attempts to conquer Russia

Why do You think everyone wanted to conquer You all?
Lithuanians yes. But Mongols just wanted money from You, Turks wanted to
get back Kaza? and Astracha? to Moslem world, Poland wanted to liberate
Smole?sk and Czernichów of your hands, which are not Russian too,
and to cut You from Baltic sea, as well as Sweden. ingria and Karelia
weren't inhabited by You at this time too.

it took all night, I don?t have time and any desire for it, just few examples: during 14-15 centuries Russia has: 17 wars against Lithuanian?s states.

"Lithuania wasn't all that strong. I know Moscow was for some time (after Olgierd, my patron,
got to Moscow) a fief of Lithuania even. But it was a might that could not fight effectively
with You. It had problems with us (Poles and Russians fighting on one side... touching),
and Teutonic Kingths were nearly destroying its core.

"10 wars against Germans

Zakon Kawalerów Mieczowych in Latvia and Estonia, weaker part of Teutonic Knights,
that in fact also had to focus on Lithuania.
Note; You couldn't destroy it for ages. When Polish king moved on their territory,
their grand master surrendered at once ;P Only then You, Danes and Swedes jealous at our
new conquest attacked our new province saying You are fighting with Teutonic Knights.

"5 wars against Sweden
2 wars against Norwegians.

Not too strong at this time.

"Strange concept of yours- invaders was weaker and they attacked and invaded Russia only to defend themselves. Very strange strategy, I know that I?m weaker, but anyway I?ll need to invade this country, because it?s for my own protection. What is it a strategy of insane kamikaze?

"Not quite, They knew that if they won't attack, they will be attacked by land-hungry Russians...

Don?t underestimate your country. Polish invasion was a pretty big threat too.

"Not at all. We didn't want to conquer or subdue You.
We just didn't want You to become ally of that bad Swedes.

"You just took guys from our list of enemies of those times.

Because at this time we had common enemies.

"Not at all. Lisovskiy was just the worse of many, he burned whole towns and by cruelty, by means how he slain his victims only nazi can compare with him.

Don't exagerrate. Anyway, as I said, he caused the same problems to us.

"The same I can say about yours.

What did we destroy, huh?

"Sure those guys were from Greenpeace, not from Russian army.

hm... they wer Red Armists, perhaps they were Kazakhs, Uzbekhs or whatever.


"And you underestimate Brits and French. Russia is much close to them as South Africa and it was in 20 century, an industrial age.

Still I think they had no chance to stop You.

"The Soviet Union was not some kind of confederation it was one united country. There was no difference who are you Russian, Kazakh or Ukrainian, first of all you was a Soviet citizen.

And what?
You wanted the same land that we wanted. We had the right not to let You have it free.
Anyway, Byelorussians had no state aspirations, and all other nations wanted to be independant.
Just Moscow wanted to subdue them and if not Warsaw battle, it could have subdued all Europe perhaps.

"The nazi took much more when they run from SU.

I diagree.

"Ok, consider you convinced me.



"Then how from tiny core city-state, Russia through centuries, becomes the largest country in this world?

Russian not at all that tiny city-state was surrounded by many other tiny Russian city-states.
Still, base for a Russian state made out of them is huge.

"Funny. Then which territories we?ve lost to Germans due Brest treaty in 1918?

The same. You lost them militarily in 1915, lawyally in 1918.

"It?s our national sport. We like to put ourselves in troubles time after time. All that do not kill us make us stronger. And we always recover from crises; so don?t put us in grave yet.

I don't!

"Ice hockey World?s Championship.

hockey isn't at all popular in Poland.

"Well, you mentioned it first. Of course you are ?traitors of Orthodox brotherhood of Slavs?: evilgrin: it?s one of the reasons too.

or perhaps You are the traitors of Slavic Catholic brotherhood?
After all, Serbians and Bulgarians preferred western church and would have gone that way
if not political and military pressure of Constantinople. You accepted christianity
from Cople when we were already baptized in latin rite...

In that case we shouldn?t have any hostility at all, we are brothers then, two glorious nations of alcoholics. Peace! Friendship! Vodka!

We could find some common enemy. I point the rest of (not-Slavic) world.
Perhaps Finland...? I demand just Kotka city. It has such a nice name.
"Little female cat" in Polish... And Forssa... Forsa - colloquial "money" in Polish.
But if ever a Slavic League shall be founded, it should have headquaters in Poland.
In my home, exactly.

[Ecthy]

Over all times, Germany has always had some power position, probably because of its central position in Europe...

[Heresson]

Germany was always some power only if You count Austria as German power. And my German friends and enemies always tend to separate from Austria.

[samdejong]

OK, hears how it goes. The formula for which country is the strongest is, according to neo-realist criterea, economy combined with military. Nothing else, form of government, land holdings, resources, matter unless they contribute to the above two things. Also, if has the above things but does not have strong mil + econ then there is way that they are strong. The reason for this is that all the non-important things (land holdings, resources, or what ever else you care to add to the list) can be gained through conquest. And in addition having all non-important things does not matter if one cannot defend them against agression.

There are of course acceptions to this, known as the paradox of unrealized power. That is, when the weaker state wins. This can be chalked up to the will of the people. That is if the will of the people supports a leader, ideology, or other cause then that gives that player an edge.

Therefore according to these variables the strongest natoins are
1. USA
2. China
3. the Combined EU
4. Japan
5. Russia

I do not know quite for certain that Japan and Russia should not be reversed however.

[David Floyd]

Russia? Their conventional military would probably lose against Britain or Germany - maybe even France.

[DinoDoc]

The EU isn't a nation.

[Serb]

Serb, What do you make of the fact that so many Chechnians had joined al Qaida in Afghanistan? Ned

Chechenians?
Most of the mercenaries just returned to Afghanistan to defend their HQ. Chechnya was like a foreign office of Taliban while Afghanistan was a HQ of Taliban. Everyone who thinks that we oppress poor freedom fighters in Chechnya is just a brainwashed person. We fought there with the same guys you fight in Afghanistan- international terrorists. Well known, famous international terrorists, like arab Hattab who was eliminated not long ago by our Special forces in Chechnya, like Raduev who now in jail and remains there forever. The only remaining legendary leader of terrorists is Basaev, but soon will get him too. He already lost his leg when he runs with tail between his legs from our army. Those three bastards is responsible for innumerous terrorist acts, for death of thousands people. They have the same methods, about 2 years ago they bombed department civilian houses in Moscow and other Russian cities, hundreds of civilians were killed. At Sept. 11 they killed thousands of civilians in New York. The same terrorist school- the same terrorist methods.

[Serb]

peace in the end

Sure.

If we haven't imprisoned patriarch Filaret, his son wouldn't have gained popularity.

If you turn it this way, then yes it because of you. Thanks.

And is there a reason to injure an important fortress by a siege when You can take it easier way

Actually you received very big casualties during siege, and capture it only when destroy one of the walls of the fortress. So, its received pretty big amount of damage.

We do not send our soldiers to clear the minefield by running through it

That’s because of our military spirit, mysterious Russian soul and Russian readiness to sacrifice their lives for Mother Russia.

Again, no-one wanted a piece of Russia. They just wanted to rob You.

Oh sure, robbing is such a nice goal.

I know. Damn Putin.

Putin RULES!!!

Your spaceships... What was with Mir?

So what was about it? This space station remains on orbit about 15 years, instead of planned 3 years. Then we sink it because it's becomes too old, every spaceship ends this day.

You aren't worse. You just seem to be lazier. If any other nation had such potential as Russians,

Perhaps we didn’t wanted to rule the World, but wait a minute; the history is not over yet.

How You became so big? You had no-one to oppose You around You.

You know that this is not true. What, Mongols were weak opponents? Why they are not occupied the same lands now? We have a lot of enemies through our history, and we weren’t always so big in terms of lands and population.

W?odzimierz and other cities too.

All those cities were independent city-states and no doubt gathering of Russian lands around Moscow was bloody conquest of those independent cities by Moscow’s prince.

Why do You think everyone wanted to conquer You all?Lithuanians yes. But Mongols just wanted money from You, Turks wanted to
get back Kaza? and Astracha? to Moslem world, Poland wanted to liberate
Smole?sk and Czernichów of your hands, which are not Russian too,
and to cut You from Baltic sea, as well as Sweden. ingria and Karelia
weren't inhabited by You at this time too.

I mean not to conquer entire Russia, but that Russia had a lot of enemies who attacked it through ages for purposes you’ve described.

"Not quite, they knew that if they won't attack, they will be attacked by land-hungry Russians...

This concept can easily justify any type of aggression.

Don't exagerrate.

I don’t. He was very cruel monster.

Still I think they had no chance to stop You.

If they thought so, then they never were involved in this. The French and Brits signed a secret agreement, by this agreements Russia was divided between them. Consider the international blockade of Soviet Russia and their support of White army. I think they thought that they will be successful in their goal.

Just Moscow wanted to subdue them and if not Warsaw battle, it could have subdued all Europe perhaps.

Yep. I think Germans should thank you. If not Warsaw’s battle, then Red army probably reached Berlin and helped German communists to establish a communist’s state.

I diagree.

It’s sad if you think so. They pillaged everything they can.

The same. You lost them militarily in 1915, lawyally in 1918.

It means that finally we’ve lost them in 1918.

I don't!

Thanks.

Or perhaps You are the traitors of Slavic Catholic brotherhood?

We never were Catholics and I wonder if Serbs or Bulgarians ever were.

We could find some common enemy. I point the rest of (not-Slavic) world.
Perhaps Finland...?

No, only not Finland, not anymore. We better bribe them somehow to put they on our side. We have many common with Finns, Russians love to jump in piles of snow after saunas too,

But if ever a Slavic League shall be founded, it should have headquaters in Poland.

Do you have store where we could buy vodka in big quantity near your house? If yes, then I’m agreed.

[Serb]

The reason for this is that all the non-important things (land holdings, resources, or what ever else you care to add to the list) can be gained through conquest. And in addition having all non-important things does not matter if one cannot defend them against agression.

Just explain to me please, how anyone can gain Russian lands or natural resources through conquest, if any aggression against Russia will be retaliated with nuclear strike against aggressor?

[Serb]

Russia? Their conventional military would probably lose against Britain or Germany - maybe even France.

David,
You’ve been hit in your head too often. You should abandon kickboxing as soon as possible before you become a complete idiot.

[mindseye]

I can't believe anyone is discussing Russia as a "powerful nation". I just read earlier today that the Russian GDP is about equal to the amount of fraud in the US medicare system (two edges on that one...).

As for the Russian military, those who weren't sent packing by Chechnyan grannies armed with pitchforks were last seen panhandling around Red Square.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Serb

Perhaps you can explain why Vikings in their core land, in Scandinavia for taxes used word "poludye" the word of Slav's origine, originated from Slav's words "lud" which means "men" (btw, in modern Russian it have the same meaning) and word "po" in that case it have the meaning- "every". The word "Poludye" used by Slav's for taxes, why Vikings don't have the word for taxes and used Slav's word if they were much more advanced as you think.

There is a big difference between borrowing a word for a specific type of tax (a head tax) and borrowing a word to name your nation after.

Originally posted by Serb
At least you realize that Slavs are not decendents of Vikings.
As for influence, I do not deny it.

Oh really?
When Variags (that's how we call a Vikings) apeared, there were a dozen of big Slav's cities. We do not lived in forests as you try to portray us.

The Vikings had the ability to travel great distances, and they had superior military technology. The penetrated the river basins of the Baltic and of Lake Onega and traveled far into the interior of what is now Russia. By traveling along the rivers they came into contact with many groups of Slavs, and had a much greater understanding of just how large an area and how many Slavs existed. Very few if any Slavs had as much knowledge about their own people at this time. The Vikings were mostly traders, as the Slavs didn't have a lot of wealth to plunder in their cities, but provided valuable commodities such as furs, amber and slaves (note that the word slave comes from the word Slav). The Vikings became wealthy, and even their small numbers of fighters could be decisive in battle. Between their wealth, their knowledge of the neighborhood, and their military capabilities they managed to take control of city after city. Of course their numbers were small, too small to displace the Slavic languages, and in fairly short order these Viking Kings were indistinguishable from the people that they ruled. In the end Russia was left with stronger states with more military capabilities and more knowledge of the world around themselves than before the Vikings came. Novgorod in particular not only became a local trading nexus, but became a powerhouse that competed very successfully with Danish and Swedish traders for the fur trade.

The knowledge of the greater Slavic nation in Russia was critical to the formation of Russia and it's survival after the Mongols came. Whether or not this would have been possible without the early contact with the Vikings is an open question, but considering just how close Russia came to destruction during that period I think it is safe to say that the Russians owe a debt of gratitude to the Vikings for helping them establish themselves in strength in what is now Russia / Ukraine.

[Serb]

Originally posted by mindseye
I can't believe anyone is discussing Russia as a "powerful nation". I just read earlier today that the Russian GDP is about equal to the amount of fraud in the US medicare system (two edges on that one...). (

That's not for a long time. Do you have any idea what type of disaster is it, to survive a devastation of entire country? The Soviet Union's economy was destroyed when it's collapsed. All economical ties were broken with new currencies, etc. The fact that we survived this and now growing is say about a lot. We'll recover from this disaster soon.

As for the Russian military, those who weren't sent packing by Chechnyan grannies armed with pitchforks were last seen panhandling around Red Square. :

Keep dreaming.
You are not a military expert. You know nothing about our army.
But living today in China may be you can ask yourself- why your precious Chinese buy their military equipment from us.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sikander


There is a big difference between borrowing a word for a specific type of tax (a head tax) and borrowing a word to name your nation after.

This is not a specific type of tax, but a general taxation system.
The question is about- you said that Slavs didn’t have their own state. I dare to say that they have such state and were more advanced in social life then Vikings. The fact that Vikings don’t know anything about taxation system and took that system from Slavs is prove a lot.

The Vikings had the ability to travel great distances, and they had superior military technology. The penetrated the river basins of the Baltic and of Lake Onega and traveled far into the interior of what is now Russia. By traveling along the rivers they came into contact with many groups of Slavs, and had a much greater understanding of just how large an area and how many Slavs existed. Very few if any Slavs had as much knowledge about their own people at this time.

Do you realize that you saying nonsense? Slavs don’t know about other Slavs, but Vikings known that the tribes they found are Slavs. It’s insane. How they didn't know about each other if they spoke on the same langauge?

The Vikings were mostly traders, as the Slavs didn't have a lot of wealth to plunder in their cities, but provided valuable commodities such as furs, amber and slaves (note that the word slave comes from the word Slav).

The Vikings were not traders, I don’t know where you get this, they were pillagers and bandits.
The originate of word slave it’s your own theory and it’s has nothing common with true.

The Vikings became wealthy, and even their small numbers of fighters could be decisive in battle.

So what?
In that case there was mentions in historical documents about invasion of Vikings. There was no ANY mention that Vikings conquered Slavs.

The knowledge of the greater Slavic nation in Russia was critical to the formation of Russia and it's survival after the Mongols came. Whether or not this would have been possible without the early contact with the Vikings is an open question, but considering just how close Russia came to destruction during that period I think it is safe to say that the Russians owe a debt of gratitude to the Vikings for helping them establish themselves in strength in what is now Russia / Ukraine.

The first Russian Tsar was a Variag by it's nationality, so what? It means that we have no state when he was elected as prince of Novgorod?

As for influence show my one nation in Europe which was not influeced by Vikings.

[Akka]

Originally posted by Serb
The originate of word slave it’s your own theory and it’s has nothing common with true.

I don't know about the rest, but the link between the word "slave" about the people and the word "slave" about the situation exists.
I THINK (not sure) it comes from the Roman Empire where the slavic where considered barbarians and only bringed in the empire under slavery.

[mindseye]

Do you have any idea what type of disaster is it, to survive a devastation of entire country

Actually, I do have an idea. I live in a place where that happened more than once recently.

But living today in China may be you can ask yourself- why your precious Chinese buy their military equipment from us.

Unfortunately, Chinese businessmen still often place too much importance on price and too little on quality. But they are learning quickly.