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Old May 2, 2002, 07:01   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Ethelred, I believe the Syrians are descended from the Assyrians who were and are an Indo-
European people. (snip)

Ned
Ned, you may be thinking of the Hittites, who were a major IE power in the region before the Assyrians. The Assyrians came from the same general direction (ie north, though more to the east), but their power waned later IIRC.
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Old May 2, 2002, 08:17   #212
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I blame the war on the British and France for the way we treated the Middle East during and after the First World War!
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Old May 2, 2002, 13:59   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
Hey you got one thing right ouit three. The lies you just told are clearly false. I didn't say those things.
Go back and look, it's all there, unless you edited it.
The following are taken DIRECTLY from your posts, Nazi:

Quote:
I guess that makes me an anti-semite then. Israel is there now and the world has to deal with it but it should never have been created.
-----
They weren't being slaughtered in 1948. Not even in Palestine. The First Arab-Israeli War started after the state of Israel was founded. Did they bother to ask the Arabs living in Palestine if they wan't to live in state run by European refugees?
-----
Fighting began before 1947.
You seem to be confused.
Or lieing.
These are your posts boy, I'm not editing them.
You have been lieing for days.

-----
It was all theirs. Why the heck should they give the land to a bunch of Europeans? The Jewish refugees were not Israelites they weren't Paletinians they were foreigners. Purchasing some land from individuals is quite a bit different from taking the whole place and setting a up a state that was designed to keep the Arabs from having any real power in their own land.
One of the many things I and others told you was the jews were there for centuries, and I backed that up.
All you have is this racist statement with no backing..C

-----
It was Turkish controlled land. Arabs were the main inhabitants. That they had not governed had nothing to do with that. If a vote had been held, in keeping with UN principles, which group would have had control?
You drone on about self determination, yet you allow none for jews, you pig.
You were shown chapter and verse that they were there for over 3,000 years. Are you saying that the idea of self determination doesn't apply to this minority? Or is it becuase they are jews? The whole place didn't go to Israel, just those areas where Jews lived.
THAT is self determination, you moron.

----
The only reason there were a lot of Jews there is because they had moved in to create a state. That is hardly a justification for what followed.
I don't dispute your numbers but they had changed cosiderably in just a few years. It was rather akin to an invasion aided and abbeted by Britain.
The major immigrations were blocked by Britain, they started AFTER the begining of the war of independance, as the links show, not before.
In other words, another lie by YOU.

----
Neither Britain nor the League of Nations had any legal or moral justification in assigning that land to European Jews. Indeed such an action would directly violate the later UN orginazation basic concepts of self-determination.
Once again, refer to the links, they put the lie to your statement.
They weren't European Jews in 1917, they were already there, YOU IDIOT.

----
It HAD been primarily Arab for 1800 years it simply did not have Arab rulers the whole time.
You asked the purpose of the time line, assinine posts like this were the reason.
There were NO arabs in Palestine in 100 AD
You don't know what your talking about.

----
European Jews had engaged in guerilla warfare and terrorist warfare with the British for a considerable time before that.
More lies by you. The Irgun and Stern gang were not European, they were NATIVE to palestine.
This is the real basis of your lies, the claim that no Jews were in Palestine before 48.

----
The Arab neighbors started fighting when European Jews declared Israel a state. They simply declared it. They allowed no vote since after all they were the minority.
You are so stupid it's amazing. How many times do you need to be told it wasn't European Jews?
Also, you have no concept of self-determination.
It means each group decides what they want.
The Jews wanted a nation, your arab friends attempted to deny this.
No historian disputes this in the slightest.
Only racist dumb-asses like YOU.

----
Fighting started in 1947 because someone decide they had the right to partition land without bothering to have a vote. Are you trying to justify that high handed behaviour?
Didn't you say the war started in 48?
Or where you lieing.

----
Apparently you aren't being honest. Making up my position like that.
You said this to Ned. I wasn't even involved in the conversation at this point.
I guess he's lieing also.

----
The Jews were a minorty in 1948 and a much smaller minority in 1917 when the British began their policy of encouraging Jewish migration to Israel.
Earlier, you said they were from Europe.
here you admit that they were there.
You still don't understand that Britain blocked immigration at every opprotunity.
You say you never lie, but you seem to have real trouble maintaining consistancy.

----
Then you give the locals an option to move out if they want. Whatever you do you don't go the partitioning route.
This is DIRECTLY contrary to the principle of self determination.
You seem to think that Palestine couldn't be split up, but as the links show, there WAS NO PALESTINE before 1948.
Add to it, the idea is for people to decide what they want.
By your thinking, all of Palestine goes to the Arabs, the 35% of Jews are not allowed a say on their own land or their own future.
I'm not talking about the holocaust survivors, they come AFTER the partition, not before.
YOU seek to disenfrancise Jews.
You are sickening.

----
This mess is due to British duplicity.
Only insofar as the Balfour declaration.
The Jews were getting their homes back.

----
The only imperialism involved in this is Englands actions in thinking they had the right to create a Jewish state via the Balfour Declaration.
You seem to think that Britain set all this up.
If you go and read the links, spefically the Partition plan, you will see that the UN granted self determination based on ethnic lines, not Britain.

----
The solution was not partitioning or forming a Jewish state. A democratic state made up of Arabs and Jews would have been the just action AFTER the mess the Brits created had to be dealt with.
Again, profound misunderstanding from you.
By Islamic law, what you propose is illeagal.
Go read up on this.

----
They were expelling Jews because the Jews wanted to create a Jewish state in a area the was even then still primarlily Arab.
Read the history.
----
I note than no one has given a justification for the British high handed efforts to create a state for Europeons on some one elses land.
Read. I grow weary of this, but even you must see it by now.
----
Radical Zionists had intended to form the state of Israel for a long time before that. Israel was carved out of Palestine because some Jews thought they had a birthright from Jehovah to the land even after nearly 1800 years of seperation.
Your racism is showwing, deary.
----
There is the UN held right of self-determination. That was abrogated in the creation of Israel for the non-Jews in the territory.
Yet the fact that you are disenfrnchising Jews doesn't concern you.
You are a racist.

----
Ahh but the Arabs are the one group that DIDN'T invade.
You claim you never said this. Were you lieing?
----
They filled in the empty land after the Romans drove out the Jews.
See above.
----
The Bible is quite clear that the Israelites stole the land from its previous inhabitants.
You claim, flat out, you never said this.
Your a liar, dear boy.

----
The pretext being that Jehovah gave it to them. If it was given they wouldn't have had to fight. They took it.
Again, you claim you never said this, your "three out of four were lies".
You are pathetic.
Quote:
I don't see where there is vote going on there Chris. Do you have a clue what self determination is? You don't seem to. I don't see where there was a vote for the establishment of Israel either.
Er, you don't seem to grasp the concept.
If I'm a jew, and I want something, that's self determination.
No arab was a right to tell a jew he can't have a country.
I was right all along.
You have no concept of what you are talking about.

Quote:
No vote equals no self determination.
The Jews voted, the Arabs said it's all ours, we are taking it.
You already made clear what side your on.

Quote:
They were guests. It wasn't their homeland. They hadn't been there for 1800 years. It was someone else home.
Dumb-ass.

Quote:
No they aren't. There is a NOW a state called Israel. The Iriquois were a nation. They had a government and the local organizations collaberated with each other (when they weren't fighting with each other).
Ha ha ha ha , what a stupid anology.
I won't even go into how foolish that is.

Quote:
I said the Bible doesn't use the word but that the actions were that of theft by conquest.
Go look at your own quote.
Quote:
Its pretty clear in the Bible. Perhaps you should actually look at before you proclaim what is and is not in it. Start with Deuteronomy but don't eat first as its nasty, mean, and savage.
Exact passages, dear boy.
If it's so plain, this should be simple, no?

Quote:
Your delusions are you problem. Please keep them to yourself.
Best look at your own lies sonny.

Quote:
You mean I refuse to accept what you say. Without evidence I am not accepting anything.
You were given evidence, but like all bigots, you ignore it.

Quote:
You ranted like a Adolf Hitler.
Interesting.
You act and think like him.

Quote:
How? It didn't show it from what I can see. Be specific.
Do woodpeckers attempt to drill that wooden head of yours?

Quote:
Telling the truth is not racist.
No, it's not.
To bad you never did.

Quote:
You have ranted and lied and called me names time and again.
Look at your own quotes, jerk-off.
You can't run from that, it's plain for all to see.
Quote:
On one single occasion you posted some links. Nothing in them contradicted me unless it was hidden. That is why you must be specific.
You are specifically a fool and a racist.

Quote:
You can tell me I am Nazi an infinite number of times. It won't make it so.
Most racists have thick skin, that's how they ignore their victim's cries.

Quote:
It was done on a couple of minor points. Nothing that would change my conclusion as there was nothing that showed self determination or a Jewish right to a modern state in the Middle East.
Learn some history, you fool.

Quote:
Posting the same error time and again won't change things.
You witless attempts to cover your bull fool hardly nobody.

Quote:
Thats clan. The KKK doesn't like Catholics or Agnostics so that leaves me out even if I was psychotic enough to join.
You certainly have the mindset and temprement to join.

Quote:
However you would fit right in. You certainly have the hate filled part down pat.
Of scum like you?
Always.

Quote:
It is clear you have a great deal of hate anyway.
Your own posts convict you, loser.

If you persist, I will continue to pull your own bull-sh1t posts.

You can't escape it.

You are exsposed.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:09   #214
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For ****s sake give it up you two ****ers!!
Chris62; I know you have some serious trouble keeping track of what people actually says and what that implies. Calling him a nazi is plain stupid. That however hardly justifies any of you. This has been just spam for a number of pages now. There where actually some people talking about other things here but that's just drowned in this mindless and idiotic spam!!!
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:11   #215
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Read what he says.

I pulled it from his posts.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:13   #216
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I've read those posts you just refered to. That does not make him a nazi.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:14   #217
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Watch out, Kropotkin, he's an airborne...
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:16   #218
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Yes I know he's 'airborne' but enough is enough. I'm not gonna sink to his level even if he's airborne.

Case closed (for my part)!
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:21   #219
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I was being ironic.

And I stopped trying to discuss along, it just seems everyone wants to get his side through, and noone cares for the children anymore...
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:22   #220
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(yeah I know )
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:23   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
Yes I know he's 'airborne' but enough is enough. I'm not gonna sink to his level even if he's airborne.

Case closed (for my part)!
Sink to my level?

You mean you refuse to recognize racism?

I withdrawl my intial post to you.

Your no better then him.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:25   #222
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I don't see any racism here, while I've read many many articles from many many serious reporters about many many incidents where the Israeli forces acted in a manner that would be considered 'racist' if it wasn't for screaming guys like you, Chris

Get real. And get rid of that "U R all gay anti semites" attitude.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:25   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
I've read those posts you just refered to. That does not make him a nazi.
Nazis said Jews had no rights, were alien invaders.

Etheladolph says Jews have no rights, were alien invaders.

You don't see the connection?
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:26   #224
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That's the silliest comparison I have ever read.

What am I doing? You MUST be trolling, you can't be that dumb otherwise you'd lack the ability to type.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:26   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecthelion
I don't see any racism here, while I've read many many articles from many many serious reporters about many many incidents where the Israeli forces acted in a manner that would be considered 'racist' if it wasn't for screaming guys like you, Chris

Get real. And get rid of that "U R all gay anti semites" attitude.
Stay out of this andy, this isn't a joke.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:27   #226
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I'm not joking, it's my humourous (what a crap word, no surprise yanks dropped the U) attitudeto ANY topic. I'm being serious. You guys are being superficial. You just don't know it, because you are. Or something like that, I know itz sounds totally stupid but to us it just must seem like that because we always get the same answer.

('us' as in 'guys that don't say yes to anything the state Israel does')
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:34   #227
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Sometimes you need to look deeper.

Are you aware, for example, that the Nazis had numerious studies and symposiums about their racial polices?

They sounded very close to what you read here, reasonable on the surface, but an enderlying level of hatred.

Ask yourself a question:

Do you think jews have rights?

That question was asked here.

Etlelred says no (and before he tries to deny it, I quoted him, so he can forget it).

All humans have rights.

He says Jews have none.

It doesn't bother you, or Kro, or lots of other people.

But he just said jews aern't human in the same sentance by saying that.
But you say I should lighten up, Kro says I don't know who is quoting what, Cyber says I'm ranting, ect....

Yet not one of you cares that he says that Jews are historical thieves that deserve nothing, have no rights, and never did.

That is INCREDIBLY racist, and spot on Nazi thinking.

I might also add, your attitude is similar to many in the 1930s, "it's no big deal".

Look at what happened.
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:41   #228
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Sorry, Chris... I know some people here don't know what they're talking about, and I know how damn industrial and technologically advancing the Nazis were at their "technical realisation" of their racial ideology as well as that ideology as such. Though I'm certain even those that you disagree with the most know to distinguish. And if not, they're damn stupid and you can always say "hey, think about this for once"

Your comparison above was a little too brief for being sensible I find. But whatever, your fear is probably justified. People forget too quickly. However, though I must admit I'm in a "no big deal" mood these days, I have to say that differs from that old one. There's a border line between noticing parallels to the thirties and being paranoid. I think all of us are in the "upper class" of intelligence (well, most of us ), so I think we can recognize stuff when it's on. There just is no anti-semitism in the masses, although it is undoubtedly there. As long as people see it, report it and go on the streets for demonstrating, there is not a big need to worry.

You will find I'm friends with at least some of the Israeli posters here.

Did you receive my PM?

Sorry for any inconvenience now, I'm outta here, and think of the victims rather than your debate victory, guys!
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Old May 2, 2002, 14:59   #229
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*sigh*
OK I know I said I wasn't gonna post any more but I can't escape my duty to inform you that refusing jews as a ethnic group rights to what the claim is their ancient homeland is not the same as refusing jews human rights!
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Old May 2, 2002, 16:08   #230
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sikander


Ned, you may be thinking of the Hittites, who were a major IE power in the region before the Assyrians. The Assyrians came from the same general direction (i.e. north, though more to the east), but their power waned later IIRC.
No, Actually I was told the Assyrians were Indo-European by someone, I don't remember who. I did not investigate it independently.

Regardless, it was clear to me that Ethelred believed that the people who the Romans settled into the ruins of Israel in 135 were Arabs, i.e., from Arabian. A lot of his thinking and positions flowed from this basic misinformation, I believe.

I believe Feisal (also spelled, Faysal, Faisal) declared that all inhabitants of the region that spoke Arabic were Arabs. I do not know whether this was a new phenomenon or not. Certainly, the Arabs made major distinctions between those of Arabian descent and conquered peoples in the times of the early Caliphs.

The indigenous peoples of Palestine in 1917 were not “Arabs” as most of us would understand that term. They were “Syrian” and Jewish. The last time they were a free people and could vote, they were Roman citizens.

Today, these distinctions are lost to history and are no longer relevant. The people of Palestine believe themselves to be Arab. That is all that is necessary.

Even though I have not been able to uncover a complete historical record, it seems clear the split between the Arabs and the Jews occurred in 1919-20. The Feisal-Weizmann document was very cordial and permitted large migrations of Jews into Palestine. However, Feisal was clearly under the impression that he would be King of a Syria that would include Palestine. When the French intervened and deposed him, all hell broke lose. That hell remains even ‘til this day.

Ned
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Old May 2, 2002, 16:43   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
*sigh*
OK I know I said I wasn't gonna post any more but I can't escape my duty to inform you that refusing jews as a ethnic group rights to what the claim is their ancient homeland is not the same as refusing jews human rights!
It nice that someone else is capable of the distinction.

Thank you.
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Old May 2, 2002, 16:47   #232
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Oh that's nothing. I've had that kind of chats with chris62 myself....
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Old May 2, 2002, 16:51   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Regardless, it was clear to me that Ethelred believed that the people who the Romans settled into the ruins of Israel in 135 were Arabs, i.e., from Arabian. A lot of his thinking and positions flowed from this basic misinformation, I believe.
I think I said Arabs or perhaps Semites. In any case case I was not thinking of people from the Arabian peninsula. My thinking comes from the Jews being mostly gone from the land in the intervening centuries.

Quote:
The indigenous peoples of Palestine in 1917 were not “Arabs” as most of us would understand that term. They were “Syrian” and Jewish. The last time they were a free people and could vote, they were Roman citizens.
They were still Semitic Romans and there were few Jews in comparison to the non-Jews in the intervening 1800 years.

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Today, these distinctions are lost to history and are no longer relevant. The people of Palestine believe themselves to be Arab. That is all that is necessary.
Well they are basicly Arab now. Even the Egyptians often think of themselves as Arab.

Quote:
Even though I have not been able to uncover a complete historical record, it seems clear the split between the Arabs and the Jews occurred in 1919-20. The Feisal-Weizmann document was very cordial and permitted large migrations of Jews into Palestine. However, Feisal was clearly under the impression that he would be King of a Syria that would include Palestine. When the French intervened and deposed him, all hell broke lose. That hell remains even ‘til this day.

Ned
That is the way it looks to me as well. I hadn't known about the French before. Thanks for that. OOOH now I can blame the French. Zo will be annoyed with me again. So I won't actually do that. I prefer to blame the Brits on this one.
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Old May 2, 2002, 16:58   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
Oh that's nothing. I've had that kind of chats with chris62 myself....
I would really like to pretend he isn't there but he keeps distorting the heck out of what I say. I haven't decided if I want to bother going over the latest pack of nonsense or not. If he hasn't learned how to comprehend by now he may never do it.

I was very suprised when I looked at his profile and found he is only ten years younger than I am. I really expected to see the he was in High School based on his behaviour.

I don't like to put that sort of info in my profile but I don't hide my age or anything. There are too many wackos on the net that I really don't want to get information about me too easily. Not talking about Chris in this instance. I am talking about the script kiddies.
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Old May 2, 2002, 17:08   #235
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I have decided to cover a few of Chis's rants. Allowing this sort stuff to go be said about me is not something I am comfortable with.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
Ask yourself a question:

Do you think jews have rights?
Why yes Chris they do have rights.

Quote:
That question was asked here.

Etlelred says no (and before he tries to deny it, I quoted him, so he can forget it).
You never quoted me saying any such thing.

Quote:
All humans have rights.

He says Jews have none.
I never said anysuch thing.

Quote:
But he just said jews aern't human in the same sentance by saying that.
A lie on top of a distortion.

Quote:
Yet not one of you cares that he says that Jews are historical thieves that deserve nothing, have no rights, and never did.
I never said any of those things Chris. I did say the Bible shows the Jews taking the land by force. No one but you has tried to deny this. The Bible is quite clear about it.

Quote:
That is INCREDIBLY racist, and spot on Nazi thinking.
If I had ever said those things that would be true. Since I didn't say any of it the conclusion is false.

Quote:
I might also add, your attitude is similar to many in the 1930s, "it's no big deal".

Look at what happened.
It is a big deal to lie and distort and rant and rave. That is why I am replying to this toxic waste you have posted.

I have shown full well I can out insult you so I won't bother with that any more. I am stunned the neither of us have been gagged for it as it is. Especially YOU chris. Your hate towards me seems to know no bounds and all based on something that only exists in your head.

You owe an apology to every one on this thread that has been exposed to this filth and hate you are spewing.
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Old May 2, 2002, 17:19   #236
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[This has been a calming rant interruption by The Emperor Fabulous.]
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Old May 2, 2002, 17:23   #237
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Old May 2, 2002, 17:29   #238
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@ EF. I gues nobody saw that one coming, I sure didnt.
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Old May 2, 2002, 17:51   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Actually I was told the Assyrians were Indo-European by someone, I don't remember who. I did not investigate it independently.
The Assyrians were not Indo-European either! Assyrian is also a Semitic language. Possibly some Asssyrians may have had some Indo-European ancestors. 'Racial purity' is highly exceptional.

Quote:
Regardless, it was clear to me that Ethelred believed that the people who the Romans settled into the ruins of Israel in 135 were Arabs, i.e., from Arabian.
Some of the settlers may have come out of Arabia and/or the Syrian desert, speaking Arabic. Many of them were nomads, constantly on the move.

Quote:
The indigenous peoples of Palestine in 1917 were not “Arabs” as most of us would understand that term. They were “Syrian” and Jewish. The last time they were a free people and could vote, they were Roman citizens.
In my book everyone speaking Arabic as native language may be called an 'Arab'. Nationalism is a typically European invention.
Those "Syrians" spoke Arabic, but considered themselves first and foremost 'Muslim' (or Christian).
Under Roman rule they were not free, couldn't vote and didn't have civil rights.

Quote:
Today, these distinctions are lost to history and are no longer relevant. The people of Palestine believe themselves to be Arab.
Here I completely agree!

Quote:
Even though I have not been able to uncover a complete historical record, it seems clear the split between the Arabs and the Jews occurred in 1919-20. The Feisal-Weizmann document was very cordial and permitted large migrations of Jews into Palestine. However, Feisal was clearly under the impression that he would be King of a Syria that would include Palestine. When the French intervened and deposed him, all hell broke lose. That hell remains even ‘til this day.
Ned
A general question: Many Jews were and are anti-Zionist.
Should we consider them anti-Semites?

Just one example:
"When Theodor Herzl proposed the idea of a Jewish state in Der Judenstaat in 1896, the idea was rejected by most Jews in both Europe and America. Jews in Palestine were also opposed to the territorial and political goals of Zionism out of fear that Jewish immigration would disturb their good relations with both Moslem and Christian neighbors.(!) Moreover, an attempt to establish a Jewish state in Palestine would very likely heighten oppressive controls of the Ottoman government then ruling Palestine.

The British and the Zionists shared a colonialist stereotype concerning the inferiority and docility of Arabs and a justifying notion that no significant culture nor productive use of land existed in Palestine -hence the Zionist slogan, "A land without people for a people without land". Other Jews cautioned against viewing the Arabs as so insignificant. Asher Ginzberg (pen name, Achad Ha'am) cautioned Zionists in 1893 about their dismissal of both Turks and Palestinian Arabs:

'We are accustomed to believing, outside Israel, that the Arabs are all desert savages, a people like donkeys, and that they neither see nor understand what is happening around them. But that is a great mistake. We are accustomed to believe... ..that the Turkish government is so weak and so savage... ..that for a little money we could do what we like there, and that in addition we will be protected by the representatives of the European kingdoms. But that too is a great mistake.'

(source: B.Thomas: 'How Israel Was Won',1999)

Last edited by S. Kroeze; May 2, 2002 at 17:56.
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Old May 2, 2002, 18:02   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
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[This has been a calming rant interruption by The Emperor Fabulous.]

Oommmm. Oommmm. Oommmmm.

Its not working.

One two three four
One two three four

How much do have to pay Transcendental Medition(tm) Inc. to get working mantra?

Will Cow work or should it be a word with no consenents.
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