AI Faction Strategy and doing without Centauri Ecology

Grail Quest · April 28, 2002, 20:44

I'm playing on Talent level. It's about 160+ turns into the game, and the Believers:

(a) do not have Centauri Ecology or Formers
(b) do not bother asking for it
(c) are probably not researching it

I'm thinking... HUH?!

In previous games, Believers have mass-produced bases, and it looks like they are still doing that (I took a peek with the Scenario Editor and they've got something like 5 colony pods crawling around).
In the short-term, I can see them expanding and building military to swarm and conquer, especially with their nifty +25% attack bonus, but in the long run, can a faction do without Centauri Ecology?

Sikander · April 28, 2002, 20:57

Given the capabilities of the AI in terraforming, the loss is not nearly as devestating as it would be to a human. That said, perhaps you should play at Transcend so that these AI factions will research faster and trade more quickly with one another. In a lot of games I see one AI faction that just kinds of hits some sort of snag and goes into hibernation more or less. This is probably somewhat realistic, but it doesn't make the game more interesting.

johndmuller · April 29, 2002, 01:31

No formers, hmmmm.

I know that Centauri Ecology was the item you mentioned, but I couldn't help thinking what it would be like without formers. I played a number of games (as Miriam, in fact) where it was only allowed to build probe teams (although 1 land and 1 sea former were allowed to be built) - anything else had to be probed away. Doing without formers would be a lot like that, whether or not probing someone else's formers were allowed. You could always conquer/probe someone else's already terraformed land (although with the AI's terraforming, that would not necessarily be that great).

Doing without Centauri Ecology looks like it could be possible; although it would not be possible to transcend unless you modified the tech tree, the lack of Centauri Ecology does not really propagate throughout the whole tree, so not that many techs are impossible.

Crawlers would still be available, so one could still get a lot of production going with double or triple the usual number of crawlers and the fact that you need Centauri Ecol to lift the Min and Energy restrictions wouldn't matter that much if you couldn't do the terraforming anyway.

Mr. President · April 29, 2002, 06:57

Weird stuff. I never really though about it, but I think if you were careful and lucky enough, you could do without Centauri Ecology.

What would that imply if you were playing in-character? That your faction is so absorbed in its stuff that they didn't even notice they weren't on Earth any more?

Mongoose · April 29, 2002, 10:41

Just unitl they discover they somehow can't build a road from point A to point b.

Ogie Oglethorpe · April 29, 2002, 10:55

No formers is a doable prospect. I played a game as Dee (who couldn't bear to destroy the landscape) and it worked out fairly well. Use fungus for Nuts and Monoliths where you can find them. ICS, recycle tanks and crawler rolling and rockies, Beeline up the green path to increase fungus production and your set. (If you pollute and create a fungal pop or two it helps out as well.)

Course with Dee there was no need to research Centauri Eco

gwillybj · May 5, 2002, 18:38

Miriam is not particularly concerned with ecology anyway.
Skipping Centauri Ecology (and every subsequent technology which requires it) would allow her to research all the way up to Matter Editation (B12).
Taking and applying every technology otherwise available, she will have Clean Fusion Power; Cruisers, Needlejets, Copters, and Hovertanks; Nerve Gas Pods, Amphibious Pods, Drop Pods, and Gene Warfare; Plasma Shard (A13) and Antimatter Plate (D10).
She will be launch-capable. Her bases will have Tachyon Shields.
She may have built (among others) The Network Backbone, The Self-Aware Colony, and The Universal Translator.
Assuming she can hold off the worms, her bases will grow at an acceptable rate, but those with several fungus squares nearby will stagnate early. She will not have as much eco-damage, but will also lack any special environmental defenses.
Not a particularly easy path to take, but, as Ogie said, "a doable prospect".

Kataphraktoi · May 6, 2002, 16:42

i had something similar to this in a game im playing right now. the hive,spartans and believers all are missing the tech allowing green. i was informed global warming was occuring,and having only 1 base with any eco damage at all,i used cheats to edit there SE and see how many AIs where using green.

apparantly,the spartans\believers\hive did not have whatever tech it is and those 3 couldnt choose green. this was on transcend. this was around 2320 and everyone had singularity researched....weird. maybe they all had research probs and used probe teams for tech( i do know that miriam had 1 tech\325 years

)

Cybergod · May 6, 2002, 18:02

Quote:

( i do know that miriam had 1 tech\325 years

)

he he he Serves the ugly witch right...

BTW, while playing a "modified" game on Transcend, which gave al AI factions a fre former at start, Santiago and Yang never bothered to research Centauri Ecology and just used the single former - and at one point even terraformed more than me!!!

But I have never seen the AI use crawlers to their full ORIGINAL potential (that is NOT hurrying SPs but CRAWLING)

--Nikola

Kataphraktoi · May 7, 2002, 17:11

ive only seen the AI use crawlers once-yang had one getting 4 energy\year(was planetary gov. and was checking his base garrisons)

how could you get out-terraformed by 1 former??

knowhow2 · May 13, 2002, 08:34

Quote:

[SIZE=1]

how could you get out-terraformed by 1 former??

AI cheats

Kataphraktoi · May 13, 2002, 10:42

i dont think the AI recieves any former bonus,and even if it did all improvements in 1-2 turns,i still dont see it out-formering 50+ of your own formers...

Grail Quest · May 14, 2002, 21:47

Quote:

Originally posted by knowhow2

AI cheats

I can believe that. I think on Transcend, the AI gets +3 Industry to begin with, for starters. Probably get all kinds of other neat bonuses, too.

BustaMike · May 15, 2002, 16:34

Actually the AI only gets +2 industry on transcend, +1 on thinker, even on librarian, etc.

The AI cheat I don't like is its ability to see your units no matter if they are hiding in fungus, are subs, or have a cloaking device. The AI sees it coming no matter what.

Something interesting... AI controlled Drones on a tiny map on transcend can get +10 industry.

+2 for tiny map, +2 for transcend, +2 because the Drones start with that, +1 planned, +1 wealth, +2 eudaimonea (spelling?) = everything is built in 1 turn.

Blake · May 16, 2002, 02:20

Actually, IIRC the tiny map bonus only applies if you have less than +1 industry, so the AI drones can only achieve +8 industry.

aaglo · May 16, 2002, 03:57

I thought that the industry and research bonuses cannot be more than +50%, no matter what the SE-settings are...

Kataphraktoi · May 16, 2002, 09:38

yes,any bonus over 5+ is wasted. 50% faster is still alot...

Quote:

The AI cheat I don't like is its ability to see your units no matter if they are hiding in fungus, are subs, or have a cloaking device. The AI sees it coming no matter what

i have used carrier+cloak on transcend,the AI never attacks me,even when it has a huge airforce...i find carrier+cloak very nice for sneaking PBs in....

Grail Quest · May 17, 2002, 01:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Cataphract887
i have used carrier+cloak on transcend,the AI never attacks me,even when it has a huge airforce...i find carrier+cloak very nice for sneaking PBs in....

Eh? Can you have a cloaked ship? I thought Carriers are only for sea units, and Cloak only for land units. The rationale, I suppose, being that at sea, ZoCs are ignored anyway, so Sub becomes the "cloaking device" for sea units.

DilithiumDad · May 17, 2002, 09:22

I have played a number of "switcheroo" games where I use the Editor function to take over the weakest AI faction and then go on to win the game. (I recommend it --quite challenging on Transcend especially fighting against the faction you formerly controlled!) Anyway, the last-place faction was usually Spartans or Believers and almost always lacked Centauri Ecology. This could be some sort of bug in the AI routine to overemphasize military.

Kataphraktoi · May 17, 2002, 10:48

Quote:

Eh? Can you have a cloaked ship? I thought Carriers are only for sea units, and Cloak only for land units. The rationale, I suppose, being that at sea, ZoCs are ignored anyway, so Sub becomes the "cloaking device" for sea units.

you might be right.its either sub or cloak,anyway.i find it strange that you can have a submarine\cloaked aircraft carrier.

Kataphraktoi · May 17, 2002, 11:00

(checked in editor)

yes,ships have sub,not cloak.i did forgot you needed troop transport for the carrier option to appear and was wondering why i couldnt select that ability

Phil_de_geezer · May 24, 2002, 09:37

The a.i. always sees your hidden units?

Hmmmm. I had a transport on hold in some fungus for about 200 years and it was never seen despite Believing ships constantly moving next to it. The transport was in a little inlet so i doubt the ai had any reason to move into the square.

Having said that, the ai does seem to spot your units more than they should - does anyone know anything about it?

johndmuller · May 25, 2002, 01:36

Conventional wisdom is that the AI has total visibility. A possible reason would be that otherwise the game would have to maintain 8 or more pretty much complete maps to keep track of the real map plus what each of the factions think it is (of course it does just that in a 7 person pbem).

Alternatively, it could be that the AI is capable of much more disciplined constant patrolling and peeking into things than would a human. Since even human players get to see hidden units if trying to enter the tile they are hiding in, the AI could possibly be getting its info legitimately.

I have looked into infiltrated AI bases to see if it showed my units in close in fungus tiles and generally it doesn't, so that would suggest that the AI is fair. OTOH, if you drag a unit toward some distant point, it will avoid otherwise hidden units along what would have been the obvious path granting even human players some info that they don't deserve to have.

Whatever the actuality, I think that most people have concluded that they seem to know more than they should and act as if the AI knows all.