Which civs could be replaced by a worthier civ?

[Boris Godunov]

I'm a hardcore Western Civ/European history buff, but I say enough European civs already. There are 6 out of 16, not including the Americans (which is essentially a European civilizations). Now I like the Dutch, Vikings and Spanish a lot, too, but enough is enough!

I just played a huge map with correct starting locales. Europe is just too crowded as it is, if you consider it from this perspective. Yeah, it doesn't apply to random maps...but I like playing on earth more anyway.

I'd like to see 2 more African civs, Mali and Carthage. Asia should add the Mongols and Indonesia. In the Americas, I'd add the Mayas and Incas both (S. America is woefully unrepresented). Perhaps even another native american group like the Souix. N. America is huge and there's no one to use it!

[Jethro83]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'd like to see 2 more African civs, Mali and Carthage. Asia should add the Mongols and Indonesia. In the Americas, I'd add the Mayas and Incas both (S. America is woefully unrepresented). Perhaps even another native american group like the Souix. N. America is huge and there's no one to use it!

Both America and the Iroquois are Expansionist. That means that both will swallow up that vast amount of land very quickly. But I do agree that South America is badly unrepresented, and the Incas are necessary to fill the gap.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by LordAzreal


Both America and the Iroquois are Expansionist. That means that both will swallow up that vast amount of land very quickly. But I do agree that South America is badly unrepresented, and the Incas are necessary to fill the gap.

You'd be surprised! In the game I am playing, it's modern era and I'd say over 50% of N. America is empty. America filled up Eastern US and Canada, and the Iroqouis (I put them on the west coast) stayed on that coast until the Americans kicked them out (but the Americans didn't capture the cities, just destroyed them).

Now, everything west of the rockies is empty except for a lone Japanese city.

[notyoueither]

Exactly! We need the Haida to fill in those vast empty spaces.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by F18fett
Aborigines going back 60,000 years? Where did you get that?

By accident when I was searching for information on Neanderthal DNA the other day for a OT discussion.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/mungoman/default.htm

Which isn't the link I found the other day. That was on the Scientific American site I think.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm a hardcore Western Civ/European history buff, but I say enough European civs already. There are 6 out of 16, not including the Americans (which is essentially a European civilizations). Now I like the Dutch, Vikings and Spanish a lot, too, but enough is enough!

Boris, what if the XP comes with a (huge) map of Europe?
Or a colonization scenario, perhaps.

And hopefully there will be more XP's, too.

[danimal]

The French are garbage....merde. Throughout history they have been a nation of backbiting cowardly whimps. If not for the USA...all the french would still be speaking German. And don't tell me about Napoleon...the big ***** got beat in the end.

[SpencerH]

We could make room by getting rid of the Germans.

[bigvic]

Originally posted by danimal
The French are garbage....merde. Throughout history they have been a nation of backbiting cowardly whimps. If not for the USA...all the french would still be speaking German. And don't tell me about Napoleon...the big ***** got beat in the end.

whimp?

[bigvic]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'm a hardcore Western Civ/European history buff, but I say enough European civs already. There are 6 out of 16, not including the Americans (which is essentially a European civilizations). Now I like the Dutch, Vikings and Spanish a lot, too, but enough is enough!

I just played a huge map with correct starting locales. Europe is just too crowded as it is, if you consider it from this perspective. Yeah, it doesn't apply to random maps...but I like playing on earth more anyway.

I'd like to see 2 more African civs, Mali and Carthage. Asia should add the Mongols and Indonesia. In the Americas, I'd add the Mayas and Incas both (S. America is woefully unrepresented). Perhaps even another native american group like the Souix. N. America is huge and there's no one to use it!

The secret is to use a distorted map, w/ Europe and near east enlarged. Regardless, if there were 1 buzillion civs to choose from, you could only play with 16.

[dunk]

Originally posted by danimal
The French are garbage....merde. Throughout history they have been a nation of backbiting cowardly whimps. If not for the USA...all the french would still be speaking German. And don't tell me about Napoleon...the big ***** got beat in the end.

Isn't he cute?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SpencerH
We could make room by getting rid of the Germans.

Why would we want to do that? The Germans have certainly had as much impact on the world as any of the other civs in the game.

[Trifna]

To be representative, some more civs should be in and the 16 that are there barely suffice to represent a part of the world.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Why would we want to do that? The Germans have certainly had as much impact on the world as any of the other civs in the game.

I disagree. I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that Germany was more than a European power. Other european civs such as the Spanish were more global in scope or the Scandinavians who have had more influence for a much longer time should have been included before the Germans.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SpencerH


I disagree. I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that Germany was more than a European power. Other european civs such as the Spanish were more global in scope or the Scandinavians who have had more influence for a much longer time should have been included before the Germans.

Absolutely not. Since the time of the Roman Empire, the Germans have altered the course of Western history. First, both England and France owe their origins to the Germanic tribes, and the Germanic tribes spread from norther europe as far as northern Africa. The descendants of the Franks became France and of the Angles and Saxons became the English.

In addition, the Protestant Reformation, which began in Germany, has arguably had as much world-wide impact than anything done by any other European power. And then of course, much of the 20th century's history was a product of the world dealing with Germany's military and imperialist aspirations.

I'd also point out that the contributions to culture--music, art, literature, religion, SCIENCE, philosophy, etc. from the Germans far outstrips anything coming from the Spanish or Scandinavians in terms of world impact.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Absolutely not. Since the time of the Roman Empire, the Germans have altered the course of Western history. First, both England and France owe their origins to the Germanic tribes, and the Germanic tribes spread from norther europe as far as northern Africa. The descendants of the Franks became France and of the Angles and Saxons became the English.

If we follow that logic back there is only one civ (at least based on modern theory) the africans. I'm refering to Germany as a recognized country. I'm not refering to germanic tribes or including the Austro-Hungarian Empire (that far eclipsed Germany for most of its existence including fostering much of the cultural contributions you mentioned).

In addition, the Protestant Reformation, which began in Germany, has arguably had as much world-wide impact than anything done by any other European power. And then of course, much of the 20th century's history was a product of the world dealing with Germany's military and imperialist aspirations.

The protestant reformation was important. I'm not sure whether those developments were German (again, as a country). Lets not forget that "Germany" grew out of the remains of the Holy Roman Empire and that for much of its time it was an loose conferacy of states rather than a country as such. Perhaps Martin Luther would have been appalled to have been thought of as a German!

I'd also point out that the contributions to culture--music, art, literature, religion, SCIENCE, philosophy, etc. from the Germans far outstrips anything coming from the Spanish or Scandinavians in terms of world impact.

I disagree.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SpencerH


If we follow that logic back there is only one civ (at least based on modern theory) the africans. I'm refering to Germany as a recognized country.

But this is not the standard that Civ3 uses to recognize a civilations. And many historians consider the Holy Roman Empire, which was in existence since 800 AD, as the "German State" pre-unified 1870 Germany. At any rate, to discount Germans as a civilization because they didn't fit a narrow nation-state definition based on 19th century nationalism notions is patently silly. Also, under such criteria the Scandanavians wouldn't qualify, either.

I'm not refering to germanic tribes or including the Austro-Hungarian Empire (that far eclipsed Germany for most of its existence including fostering much of the cultural contributions you mentioned).

Excluding Austria from German civilization is silly, as Austrians are German. They speak German and are ethnically German. And much of the cultural achievments I mentioned were not Austrian either, but from the German states. Bach wasn't Austrian.

The protestant reformation was important. I'm not sure whether those developments were German (again, as a country)

And again, excluding pre-1870 German achievements is silly and arbitrary. The reformation began in Germany.

I disagree.

That's your right, but I think you'll find yourself in a very small minority.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Also, under such criteria the Scandanavians wouldn't qualify, either.

Excluding Austria from German civilization is silly, as Austrians are German.

Well I certainly hope we hear the opinions from some of the Scandinavians and those "German" Austrians.

[Boris Godunov]

Hey, I wouldn't object to including the Scandanavians, but to supercede the Germans for them would be, IMO, not a good idea.

But isn't it great we're having discussion in a Germanic language...

[SpencerH]

Next you'll be saying that the Germans reached the moon first. After all the americans are just english who are really germans

[bigvic]

I wish they had taken a much more general approach to the whole thing, which would have included so many changes that it would be a whole different game. Germanics, Celts, Latins, Slavs, Semites, etc. Oh well, too scholarly, I suppose.

[Rust]

The Americans have been a virtual British colony, or is that lap dog, for quite some time now. They may have run themselves for awhile but their back in the fold today.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Next you'll be saying that the Germans reached the moon first. After all the americans are just english who are really germans

Armstrong...Armshtrong ARMSCHTRONGK!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Rust
The Americans have been a virtual British colony, or is that lap dog, for quite some time now. They may have run themselves for awhile but their back in the fold today.

Until the Brits can beat us in combat (HA!), I'd say we're still quite on our own. Just remember what we did to those sissy redcoats.

[SpencerH]

In all honesty, I'm not sure how English could be defined as "Germanic". I dont speak German, but I've had enough exposure to it to recognize that there are as many differences between English and German as between English and French.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SpencerH
In all honesty, I'm not sure how English could be defined as "Germanic". I dont speak German, but I've had enough exposure to it to recognize that there are as many differences between English and German as between English and French.

English is a Germanic language, that's how it is classified. Having experience with both German and French, I can tell you that English is far closer to German in both grammatical structure and just the words than it is to French.

Of course, German is to this day the only language in which you can legitimately ram as many words as you want together to form a brand new word, regardless of length. I just love that.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Until the Brits can beat us in combat (HA!), I'd say we're still quite on our own. Just remember what we did to those sissy redcoats.

Sorry, but large chunks of the country would have flipped (culturally) in the 1960's.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SpencerH


Sorry, but large chunks of the country would have flipped (culturally) in the 1960's.

Eh? I don't follow.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

English is a Germanic language, that's how it is classified. Having experience with both German and French, I can tell you that English is far closer to German in both grammatical structure and just the words than it is to French.

That may be how its classified but I dont see it personally. English does not have the 3 "genders" (I cant remember the actual terms) or the differences between spoken and written language. To me those are huge differences.

English is an amalgum of so many languages, it is its own language. American is still developing. But in 1000 years or so it may be seperate from english. Would it then be "germanic"? I dont think so.

Of course, German is to this day the only language in which you can legitimately ram as many words as you want together to form a brand new word, regardless of length. I just love that.

I remember seeing the name of a department store (maybe in Frankfurt) that was the length of the building.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Eh? I don't follow.

Maybe you're too young, but I'm sure you've heard of the "British Invasion" in the 1960's that dominated music and fashion.

Of course they would have flipped back with the advent of MacDonalds.