"Out of turn" tech trading is back (was always there?) --> AI fast reasearch

Loopy · April 29, 2002, 14:22

Depending on what you consider to be "your turn", the AI trades during your turn. By my definition (but apparently not Firaxis's), the AI's turn is from when you hit the button for the end of turn up until your cities start producing. The AI has a chance to trade during your production.

This is most visible when you are the first to finish researching a tech. Right after you've finished researching on your turn, the cost to finish for the AI drops, they can complete researching the tech at the discounted rate, and then trade. After the AI finishes trading, you're then allowed to finish your build queues and move units.

You can see this in the save game I'll post. After you finish researching the tech, look at the "big picture". Then hit F4 to open trade negotiations. Note that no other civ has the tech. Close windows and allow the build queues to finish. Open up trade negotiations again, and other civs suddenly have the tech.

This researching out of turn makes it harder for the player to maintain a tech lead. In addition to the documented production bonuses, the AI only has to research at a one-Civ known tech rate for whatever you're researching.

The only way I can see this as being "fair" is if the order of turns is documented and confirmed as follows:

Player finishes builds.
Player moves units.
Player can trade.
Player ends build turn.

AI finishes builds.
AI moves units.
AI can trade. (?)
AI finishes build turn.

Player finishes research.

AI finishes research.
AI can trade.
AI ends second turn.

Also, I'm guessing that now that I've pointed out that you can initiate trades from the "big picture" screen, it will be taken out.

Loopy · April 29, 2002, 19:21

Crud. The save zips to 518k. Any way around this?

Jethro83 · April 29, 2002, 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Loopy
Crud. The save zips to 518k. Any way around this?

Yes... Use WinACE. Much more powerful compression tool.

Pelman · April 29, 2002, 20:11

I believe that your understanding of the turn order is incorrect.
I am playing a huge map, and the turns take a huge amount of time to process. I have noticed a different turn order from what you mentioned.

Quote:

Player finishes builds.
Player moves units.
Player can trade.
Player ends build turn.

AI finishes builds.
AI moves units.
AI can trade. (?)
AI finishes build turn.

Player finishes research.

AI finishes research.
AI can trade.
AI ends second turn.

But the turn order appears to be:

Player Processes builds
AI Processes Builds

Player Moves units and makes trades
AI Moves Units and can trade

I haven't paid any attention to the research timing issue that you mentioned, but I suspect that it would progress in a similar fashion. i.e.

Player Processes research
AI Processes research

Player Processes builds
AI Processes Builds

Player Moves units and makes trades
AI Moves Units and can trade

Grrr · April 30, 2002, 00:05

Quote:

Yes... Use WinACE. Much more powerful compression tool.

Does apolyton allow Ace files to be attached?

LaRusso · April 30, 2002, 04:29

but the cost also drops for human player in the same way. i had some surprisingly early discoveries.

Loopy · April 30, 2002, 11:36

WinAce doesn't compress it below 500,000 bytes either.

I can e-mail it out if anyone cares. Emperor level, huge map, all random settings. I ended up as Greek and winning with a diplomatic victory ~5500 points.

I've seen research cost drops too, but I've never had the cost drop below 1 turn. That is, I've never finished researching a tech when the turn before said I had more than 1 turn to go; it always drops to 1 turn first.

The way the turns are set up now, your research can drop the AI cost to 1 turn right before their research turn. The AI gets the added advantage of you completing research first, and the exploit of trading before you can trade your completed research.

The AI can definately make trades after you finish builds. That would make another possible turn order look like:

Player Processes research
AI Processes research

AI Trades

Player Processes Builds
AI Processes Builds

Player Trades and Moves units
AI Moves Units

Again, the AI is "trading" out of turn. The player should be given an explicit turn to trade in between the AI research turn and the AI trade turn. Short of that, a fairer solution would be for all research to take place simultaneously.

Redstar · April 30, 2002, 11:52

an AI trades tech before human as evidenced by the fact that they will offer to trade a tech for 20 gold on the same turn you are about to discover the tech.

So ya i agree with firaxis --your turn doesn't begin until the computer actually allows you to input again after you have ended your turn

Loopy · April 30, 2002, 13:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Redstar
So ya i agree with firaxis --your turn doesn't begin until the computer actually allows you to input again after you have ended your turn

But this isn't the case. The AI finishes moving units. You finish a tech. You have to input your choice of a next tech to research. Then the AI finishes research. Then the AI trades.