Give Sid a break . . .

Let me put this as pleasantly as possible. Alot of people in the forums have done nothing but knock the CtP series. Much of the criticism has been well placed. After all, the CtP games did not put up much of a fight, and the AI was in general not very competent. However, many people knocked the series because it wasn't Sid, patron diety of TBS. Many of these individuals have consistently opined that Sid will never let them down. Sid wouldn't add in a space layer. Sid wouldn't add future technology. Any game that deviates from Sid's designs is awful. But now it looks like Sid has deviated from Sid's design. Well, not exactly. Sid is designing Civ3, not Civ2.5 (maybe its SMAC 1.5 in other clothes, but thats another issue). Judging from what may have said in this forum about civ specific units and the number of civilizations, it sounds as though what many people around here really want is Civ2 with no limit on the number of civs, boarders, and any number of small tweaks (ICS solutions, better AI). I hate to break it to you, but such a project would essentially by CTP2 with a working AI (and possibly worker units instead of PW. CtP2 had boarders and no limit on the number of civs, yet I have heard so many people bash the game because it was not Sid's - the fact that it has all the features you want notwithstanding. But apparently Sid isn't Sid anymore. Think of Sid and his crew as you would your favorite band. Your favorite band, if they're around long enough, will probably evolve their sound. Some people will yell, "Hey! They sold out." No, they just grew. Bands who solely cater to the tastes of fans are the sellout bands - bands like boy bands that carefully and coldly calibrate their sound for the marketplace. Bands that survive - like the Rolling Stones - have a sound that grows and changes, they balance the requirements of the marketplace with their own artisitic desires. Sure they lose some of their old fans - people who genuinely do not like they new direction. And that's fine. But lets face it, you can't release the same exact stuff on album after album and survive either. And that's what some of these arguments sound like. Do you really want Civ3 to be a rehash of Civ2? Roman makes a good argument. He's saying that the 7 civ limit seems to be a recurring track on every Sid album (er, in every sid game). At least give us a remix (er, at least increase it a little). But too many gripes around here are that Sid has betrayed us. Don't you remember "Sid won't let us down!" A fickle lot you are, and thus Sid would be foolish to try and placate you.

[Fiera]

Mr.Pleasant,

using your line of reasoning it would seem like Civ2 was in fact Civ1.5, don't you think so?

The sequel of Civilization, probably the most original and clever game ever, was an improved civ game (with better graphics, the ability to build custom maps and to play and create scenarios, etc), but not so much that you couldn't say it wasn't civ anymore. I think you'll understand me.

Now, unique civ advantages and units looks like it doesn't belong in the Civ genre.

Maybe I'm one of those who would like to see Civ2.5, but Civ3 may be the first Sid Meier's Civilization game that I don't like, and that scares me.

Fiera:
Yes, I was somewhat disappointed with Civ2. Civ2 should have had borders. The armor/firepower/health addition was nice, but in may ways I did feel as though I was merely getting a tweaked Civ1 in better dress. And that's fine. And I understand the posibility that you might not like Civ3 - hell, until its out of the box and on my hard drive, I might not like it. Then again I liked 'Master of Puppets' and 'Ride the Lightning', and though 'And Justice for All' was overproduced wanking, but I don't begrudge Metallica the need to move on and expand their artistic (and market" horizions. And I don't think we should to begrudge Sid wanting to take his baby in new directions also. In fact, there have been many good suggestions around here about how to take Civ3 in new directions. Some of them have been implemented (natural resources) and some of them have not (accurate maps for spherical worlds, public works - one of my favorites but many people despise the idea, unit workshops - a bad idea in my opiion but many people would have liked it). Fact is, its Sid's baby and he has to strike the balance between his vision and what the market will accept (and face it, apolyton forum lurkers are only a small part of this market). Granted I hope his vision includes greater ability to customize (ala the CtP series) so we can impose some of our own vision. But in the end, if we think Sid's vision has gone too far astray, then instead of moaning, it is incumbent upon you to program your own vision. Sort of like if you think some band isn't doing music right, then it is incumbent upon you to pick up a guitar/keyboard/trumpet and show people how you think it should be done. Gee, wouldn't it be nice to programmers if we attributed the same artistic qualities to their work as we do musicians, directors, and painters? So think of Sid and his crew as the Stones, if you don't like his later work then you don't have to buy the album, but respect his artistic descision and continue to enjoy the ealier work.

[David Murray]

People are usually conservative at heart, especially with the things they really care about. But the Civ games, like everything else, need to change and adapt to survive and progress.

I think everyone needs to calm down and chill--has Sid ever disappointed in the past?

I rediscovered Civ2 today, after more than 2 years of CTP1/2 as my sole source of Civ. If Sid and his talented team could make a game that is still great today all those years ago, think about what they'll do with Civ3.

[ASHBERY76]

You seem to forget brian reynolds influence of them games which looking at the civ3(2.5) previews appears to be missed greatly.

[Ilkuul]

I agree with you, Mister Pleasant, that we should allow Sid full artistic licence to do something different if he wants to; and it's good to read something positively pleasant, rather than negatively critical!

(But... er... may I make a small suggestion, off-topic? Your posts would become a lot more readable if you inserted the occasional paragraph break! This is intended entirely as positive criticism: I greatly appreciate what you have to say, it's just rather tough-going having to plough through those great swathes of continuous text. Forgive me, I happen to be a typesetter! )

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant on 04-29-2001 05:16 PM Fiera: Yes, I was somewhat disappointed with Civ2. Civ2 should have had borders. The armor/firepower/health addition was nice, but in may ways I did feel as though I was merely getting a tweaked Civ1 in better dress. And that's fine.

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't disappointed at all with Civ2. I found it to be the greatest game ever whne I first palyed it, I thought it was the best posible improvement they could have done to the original Civ.

But then, as I played it more and more, I began to find little "downers", like: hey, why can't we cut and paste in the Map Editor? Or: why can't we have unit stacks?

I know most of you have lived through that the same as I did. I got into scenarios then, both palying themn and trying to build my own. First thing that annoyed me was that I couldn't use more than seven civs in my project of an Italian Renaissance Age scenario. And then, I like to design my own units, but I always bothered with the need to use a 256 colors palette...

You get the idea. It's been five years since Civ2 came out. The fans have found a lot of things they don't like in the game, which could be improved without the final game losing its identity. It could have 16 simultaneous civs and still be a Civ game. I think that was what most fans were hoping for Civ3.

quote: But in the end, if we think Sid's vision has gone too far astray, then instead of moaning, it is incumbent upon you to program your own vision. Sort of like if you think some band isn't doing music right, then it is incumbent upon you to pick up a guitar/keyboard/trumpet and show people how you think it should be done.

Yes, I am actually devoting some of my free time to the Clash of Civilizations project. See the link at the bottom of this page or go to the relevant forums for more details. Clash will be a game made by Civ fans and not businessmen after all.