design versus coding

[Velociryx]

...we're still here!

A traditional software company, doing a game with a full time, dedicated staff, takes ~5 years to bring a game full cycle.

We:

* Are volunteer based, doing this mostly in our free time

* Got hacked some two years in, and lost a good chunk of our work (basically had to start from scratch)

* Were completely new to all this when we started, and have been learning as we go

Don't get your panties in a twist. I can't help it if you refused my earlier offer.



-=Vel=-

[Oerdin]

+1.

[Chuckman]

As someone who has a bit of experience in retail book selling I am going to step in here.

Yes the vast majority of people who self publish ultimately sell anywhere from a few to a few hundred copies primarily to family and friends. There are alternatives to traditional publishing houses for new authors willing to put in the work to successfully publish. (By successfully publish I mean turn a profit.) Allow me to give some examples:

Brunonia Barry of Massachusetts self published her first novel "The Lace Reader." Through significant work and investment ($50,000) on her part she was able to parlay her initial investment into a $2,000,000+ book deal with William Morrow.

Zane, author of urban fiction, self published her first three novels. She has since been picked up by Simon & Schuster. I believe she now has over a dozen titles in print and in most metropolitan bookstores she has about 1 to 4 feet of shelf space dedicated to her.

The first book of Christopher Paolini's Inheritance trilogy "Eragon" was self published.

These three examples are all situations where a new author initially self published and then was picked up by an established publishing house.

It is also possible to successfully self publish in a niche market. My example for this is "Rosalie's Guide to Restaurants in the North End of Boston" published by Rosalie and Jim Masella. This title is updated every year and they sell a few thousand copies each year in the greater Boston area.

To dismiss all who self publish is unreasonable.

[TCO]

I'm not dismissing all. Just like some people win betting at Vegas. But it's a suckers bet. And the odds are way worse than the slots.

[snoopy369]

That was a cool thread, TCO (at Asimov's) ... Gardner Dozois starting a thread to find you reading material ...

[Nugog]

Originally posted by TCO
I don't want to hurt your feelings

Then - if you really mean this - PM him your email addy - read the book/s and PM him your opinion - and publically keep your opinion to yourself.

Vel is open to true and honest criticism - if that is what you are offering.

[PLATO]

Vel

[Velociryx]

I agree Snoopy....the thread that TCO referenced over at Azimov's is a great reader resource indeed! (and I suspect that the whole forum over there is likewise!)

And thank you Nugog and Plato for offering your support as well! So far, everyone who has read the books has given them high marks (Plato and Snoopy, btw...if either of you wanna join the editorial club and get the chance to beat me over the head with any mistakes you find in the work, there's still space...just shoot me a PM)

TCO....with great respect...I think it's time to put up or shut up, no? You've asked for a peek...we're offering it to you....take it, or no, but IF no, then enough with the complaints.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

At the end of the day, it's not about monetary success though.

I keep trying to beat that through your thick skull, TCO, but the message just won't make it through.

Hate to break it to you partnero, but there's more to life than a fat bank account, and many more motivations for doing any given thing.

I write because I love to.

Pure and simple.

It's like breathing.

I couldn't stop if you asked me to, and you know what? I'm willing to bet that the love of it makes me better at it than I otherwise would be.

You want proof? I've already said I'm willing to send it your direction.

You don't need the CEO of a publishing house to tell you what's good or bad, do you?

Surely you're capable of drawing your own conclusions.

Or...maybe you do. That would be...disappointing if it were so, but I'm willing to allow for the possibility.

If they (the books) make money, that's great.

An afterthought, but great just the same.

I would have written them anyway, and the best part...they're still mine!

I didn't have to sell out and lose two years of my life for midlist contract of a few thousand bucks and 3% for the rights to MY work.

But there's that whole "something besides the money" thing that you can't quite seem to fathom.

A shame.

-=Vel=-

(offer still stands, btw)

[Velociryx]

And Chuckman...

-=Vel=-

[snoopy369]

I agree that the odds of being monetarily successful self-publishing is very long indeed. If you don't care about the money, then do it If you care about the money, or about being a 'successful writer' in the sense of having your books in bookstores etc., don't.

The main problem with self publishing, in most cases, is that it is largely people who can't get published through normal means, but believe they've written 'the best book ever' and just need to get it into a bookstore. They're trapped by the folks who run vanity presses and the 'agents' who demand money to represent them, and give them squat except a book that cost them a fortune ($50k or more often) and no return. They don't want to put in the work doing the little things writers do first - write shorts for magazines, attend conventions and get to know the people who do write for a living, etc. - and just want to write a novel and have it published.

So - my advice is: as long as you don't use a 'vanity press' (ie, a real self publishing book company who prints actual books) nor an agent, you're fine. Write your novel, put it in PDFs and distribute it widely. Don't expect to become a novelist who is published in bookstores this way, but do expect to have some fun along the way

If you actually want to become a professional novelist, I can suggest a few places to start (also having several years in the book industry).

My brother, unfortunately, was in the group of people I described above, and of course being my brother didn't heed my advice on this... so i'm a bit touchy on the agents and vanity presses side of things

[Dale]

Hmm...... weren't Stardock arrogant upstarts with lots of criticism too? Just like Vel? Oh wait, didn't they do your favourite game TCO?

You go Vel!

And TCO, either put your money where your mouth is and read the book, or piss off.

[TCO]

I don't WANT a peek at the damn books. I think the books are a distraction. I think the whole Candle Bre thing and your whole attitude are skewed. You say you are going to fund things by real estate speculation (gaming and RE have NO synergy). Now, you want to have some multi-media release as if this were Harry Potter or soemthing. But you don't even have success as either a gamer or a writer. In both cases, you are completely amateur. You're not GOOD ENOUGH to get someone to pay you for this stuff, so you self publish. You';re not good enough to get a job game designing, so you start your own company. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but it's the elephant in the room.

[TCO]

Stardock were much further. Their dude has a clue. heck, I showed Vel the articles that guy had written!

[TCO]

I'm the one who put Poly and Stardock together.

[Leland]

I gotta agree with TCO. His point from the beginning hasn't been that your books suck, but that your business model sucks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original plan was something like this:

1) Create a game.
2) Build up community.
3) Write books and other stuff around the game, sell to community.
4) Break even at some point, and if not... well you've still got the game, the community, the books and good times.

But what do you have?

- No game.
- As a corollary, no community to speak of outside the core team.
- A book that not a whole lot of people are likely to buy.

You're still here so the jury's out and of course there may be more successes in the future when the game is out, but I can understand what TCO is getting at.

[Velociryx]

Can't help you, partner.

This is what we have to show you at this point, with more in the works and on the way.

You either accept that, or you don't.

If you do...the offer's out there.

If you don't....might not be a bad thing to move along.

It's not like you'll be paying too much for said game when it is released.

At any rate...the project does not succeed or fail around TCO's word.

So long as we're still at it, it can be fairly said that the jury is still out.

But of course, TCO has been singing our dethknell for years now.

Again....we have tangible output.

Evaluate it on its merits, or not, but if not, then you're all out of wiggle room to gripe.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Dale, TCO can't....that takes some nominal level of commitment, and as he has amply displayed over the past several days, he'd much rather continue to blow hot air up everyone's arse than make a fact based attack on the tangible output to this point.

His game has, at this point, been utterly and completely revealed.

A disappointment, to be sure, but that seems to be the lay of the land.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Oh...and one more thing while I'm at it.

From the beginning, this project was to be something for gamers, by gamers, and I absolutely refuse to release something that's crap.

If it doesn't pass my own personal muster, then we try again.

And we keep trying until it's right.

I don't care if it takes ten iterations or ten thousand, it's not going to be released until it's right.

If that doesn't happen according to TCO's preferred timetable, then he has my sincere apologies, but tough shite.

The project doesn't operate according to TCO's (or anyone else's) timetable.

It simply is what it is.

We've made quite some progress, and I'm happy with what we have so far, but it's not ready to be released yet, so it has not been.

End of story.

Will it?

Yes.

When?

When it's ready.

And not one day sooner.

I can't make it any clearer than that.

-=Vel=-

[hexagonian]

Ironic...

The model Vel proposed and repeated by Leland is the same that any game uses...

- Create a game
- Build up community
- Create sub-products based on the game, (in the case of games...Xpacks, in the case of CB, stories)
- Break even and/or show profit.

So what is the problem?

TCO is highly critical of Vel because, among other things, he felt that Vel did not use the whip enough. Set hard and fast deadlines on the team...that sort of thing.

I have been involved with a variety of fan-based gaming Mod projects, from my own Cradle Mod, through Ages Of Man and Fall from Heaven. All the projects succeeded because simply put, the head of the team respected the fact that volunteers who worked on the projects DID NOT HAVE deadlines hanging over their heads like a executioner's axe.

The main difference between those projects and Candle'Bre is the scope of Candle'Bre. Candle'Bre proposes to build the game from scratch, not off an existing game platform. In that regard, the the ambition is much greater, and I never was under some sort of delusion that it would be as simple as waving a magic wand and wishing it so.

So the question becomes TCO...how would you build a game from scratch, using nothing but unpaid volunteers, who can drop out at the drop of a hat because sometimes real life takes priority.

How do you encourage a volunteer coder to stay with a volunteer project? And if they bail out for whatever reason, do you pack it in, or do you look at the situation and figure out how to adapt?

I hear a lot of mocking from you, but nothing constructive, and that is why you are such a socially-crippled tool.

Vel adapted...

One thing that I truly admire about Vel is that he believes the best of people instead of the worst. Call that a flaw if you want, but I don't. If somebody bails, he accepts it at face value instead of railing at the loss, and trys to move on. Two extended hospital stays have not shut down the project.

One thing Vel did was to keep the project moving forward despite the setbacks in the game area. So the story, which in itself is a viable product in it's own right, came into fruition before the game did. (and the work required for its creation is as time consuming as the game)

So what is the big problem with that????? Why be critical of that victory?

TCO decides to be petty and belittling of that effort because it is so much more fun to sit on the sidelines taking potshots.

[Velociryx]

Not much to add beyond what Hex said, but I'll go back to TCO's post and say these things:

I don't WANT a peek at the damn books.

All stop.

For as long as this project has been in existence, you have wanted a sneak peek into what we are doing. The stories are the first pieces we're releasing to the public, not because of some grand plan, but because they happened to get finished first.

So for YEARS you've hopped up and down demanding a sneak peek, and now you don't want what you have been asking for.

Again, I can't help you sir. You either do or you don't, and that is something YOU need to decide. Once you decide, it is generally helpful to be consistent. Just a tip.

And second:

I think the books are a distraction.

If this is what you believe, then you have either willfully ignored the many threads on design philosophy, or simply failed to grasp them, because I have said repeatedly and nearly since day one that unlike most other games, where the backstory feels "bolted on" as an afterthought, THIS game was going to be different.

The stories inform US what the game needs to come fully alive.

Thus, there IS no better view into the living world of Candle'Bre than the stories, and there won't be until the game itself is ready to be revealed.

That you fail to recognize this simple fact tells me in no uncertain terms that you fail to understand the more basic concepts that we're organized around, and as such, wouldn't be able to tell what you were looking at in any case.



-=Vel=-

[Dale]

Yeah, the point remains.

TCO made all this bluster and speech, but when offered the goods to check out he refuses.

If I were him I'd love a shot to prove the claims correct. But I suppose TCO doesn't want to be proven wrong.

Oh and TCO, no matter what you say, the few people who've access to the content will attest that it's a brilliant world full of stories and wonder. It's a great read.

[TCO]

If you were writing best sellers, I would feel differently. But you keep trying to put pieces of crap together and think it makes something great. and you're a typical wannabe in refusing to face facts. The reason, you don't have publishing contracts is NOT because publishers are mean or stupid. It's because, you're not good enough. Now, don't bother me. I'm going to go play guitar and dream that I'm a Van Halen.

[TCO]

The books are a distraction. Where the hell is the game? It's 2008 now!?

[Velociryx]

Hmmm.

So...the reason that I don't have a publishing contract has nothing to do with the fact that I didn't even try to get one, but that the product isn't good enough.

Interesting.

And you have based this on a careful reading of the material offered?

If not, you're latest claim is like the rest....hot air.

Why not step up to the plate and sink your teeth into the project, then come back and offer some REAL criticism?

-=Vel=-

(I feel like I'm talking to a big chicken...BWAK! LOL)

[Velociryx]

The answer to your question is in the other thread.

If it's too much trouble for you to go read there, I can copy and paste here.



Face it. You're backed into a corner where you either have to put up or shut up, and instead of bucking up and doing it, you treat us to more of the endless rounds of chanting the same tired mantras.

Times (and circumstances) have changed, and we now have something to show you.

Can't help you if you refuse to look.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

But yes...let's by all means look at the facts.

I agree. It's important to do that.

And the facts as I see them are these:

* We have less than 1% of the resources that a full time, dedicated design house would have at our disposal.

* Design houses take ~5 years (with 100x the resources and a full time paid staff, a whole team of artists, writers, and coders) to produce a game.

* We're now 6 years into the project and not done yet.

In looking at the above, this is hardly surprising.

What IS surprising is the amount of stuff that we've been able to get accomplished in that time, especially given everything that's happened to us as a project.

Four novels and an alpha build later, and we're still inching closer, and when the alpha is ready to be distributed to a (slightly) wider audience....it will be.

I told you...I don't release crap, and it takes as long as it takes to get there.

Those answers (interestingly) haven't changed at all from the very first time you asked.

That should tell you something.

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

have fun playing fort, Vel.

[Velociryx]

Check and mate, sir.

-=Vel=-

(but even after all this, the offer still stands....whenever you get the stones to take it. )

[Tuberski]

Every time I think about why I got out of the Navy, I read a TCO post and remember.

ACK!