design versus coding

[moomin]

Originally posted by GP
I hope that they are talking to people like you.

That's hillarious. Here I was thinking I'm hoping they're talking to people like you.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by moominparatrooper

You'd better be very careful with that license in that case, Vel. It ain't trivial cooking up a scheme that procludes others from running away with your code while enabling you to make money off theirs, while maintaining as devotee-acceptable level of OSness, although it's possible.

Didn't Microprose do something similar though with their CiC and FW expansions having "Best of Net" sections?
Or is this an issue relating to open-source specifically?

One possible way around it might be to invite players to send material in with the understanding that they would be credited in the final release. A number of PnP RPG publishers do similar things with source material.
I have no idea about all of the legal technicalities involved though...

[Urban Ranger]

You can have a strategy guide, and then an advanced strategy guide

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You can have a strategy guide, and then an advanced strategy guide

With Designer notes included!

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Velociryx
(and wouldn't you know it, but the in-game documentation will point the way back to 'poly! )

I bet you're MarkG's new best friend!

[Velociryx]

UR...that was classic...'specially with your last comment!

GP: Even if we stood to make an absolute KILLING by letting Prima do a guide for us, I don't think I could get past the way they turn my stomach. I'd simply keep looking till I found another way....they're not the only company out there that does strat guides....I'd keep searching for an alternative....

As to the SMAX guide, can't give you sales figures, but I will say that it's a heckuva lot more than I ever expected for a game that's three years old. It exceeded all my expectations in that regard, and proved the validity of the POD model in my mind (proved it sufficiently that I'm publishing my two novels using the very same method, this time, with a national ad push).

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Well Zealot, if so, that would just be a mighty nice way to return his generosity!

As to the license...yeah, that's one area where we're most definately NOT skimping....soon as we get incorporated, that's the first official piece of business.

Where modifications are concerned....as Rav pointed out....we'll be actively engaging the gaming community shopping for ideas. Whether those ideas come to us in the form of sugesstions on the forum, or in the form of modified code to demonstrate how they envision the idea working, to looking at their code and reverse engineering it to tweak it along the way for our own purposes.

That, taken with a good, well-considered license, should leave us in the spot we wanna be in.

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Warning cutting comments and trolls to follow:

(cutting comment #1) Maybe you can get Alan Emrich to do your guide. He got some free time, recently.

(cutting comment #2) Perhaps your inability to get a publisher to buy your novels also prompted you to self publish?

(cutting comment #3) Why can't you give your SMAC guide sales figures?

Doesn't support argument? Poor accounting (i.e. frayed shoebox )? Or perhaps you did pretty well and didn't quite put everything in the old ten fawty?

[/cutting comments]

[TCO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You can have a strategy guide, and then an advanced strategy guide

Now, you're thinking like an MBA...

[Velociryx]

If Mr. Emrich has free time, perhaps we can interest him in our project....that would be sweet...

The novels, "Guardians" and "Five Days in May"...the reason I opted to go with the POD company that churned out the SMAX guide was because they did a fine job with production, time to market, and product quality, and the total sales figures for an unmarketed book on a three year old game proved beyond all doubting that the model was a viable one. (And because I do tend to be an early adopter of newfangled technology). Unbiased opinion here, but my books are a heckuva lot more entertaining than a whole lot of the tripe that gets published by someone who's the nephew of the editor in chief....I'll shoot you an e-book copy when they're done....see if you agree...

As to my unwillingness to discuss the SMAX guide's sales figures...much the same reasoning as the Firaxis crew's unwillingness to discuss the sales figures of civ3, as evidenced by the conversation to be found here: http://apolyton.net/misc/chat/civ3/121log-best.shtml

-=Vel=-

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by GP
(cutting comment #3) Why can't you give your SMAC guide sales figures?

Doesn't support argument? Poor accounting (i.e. frayed shoebox )?

[/cutting comments]

Maybe he doesn't have them to hand right now. Why would he?

Maybe that was a personal question and information that Vel wouldn't feel comfortable about discussing on a public forum.

I dunno though.

You seem to have an awful lot of confrontational questions and significantly less helpful suggestions GP...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Velociryx
If Mr. Emrich has free time, perhaps we can interest him in our project....that would be sweet...

He's sitting by the phone...

Unbiased opinion here, but my books are a heckuva lot more entertaining than a whole lot of the tripe that gets published by someone who's the nephew of the editor in chief....

Sorry to hear you couldn't sell them...

As to my unwillingness to discuss the SMAX guide's sales figures...much the same reasoning as the Firaxis crew's unwillingness to discuss the sales figures of civ3, as evidenced by the conversation to be found here: http://apolyton.net/misc/chat/civ3/121log-best.shtml

Oh...you naughty boy, you. cheatin' on that ten fawty!

[Velociryx]

See...that's just the thing, GP...I'm not the least bit sorry I didn't get them (the novels) published via traditional means. In fact, in the case of "Five Days," I didn't even try! Based on the success of the POD model, I didn't feel the need to. I have found a way to do a classic end-run around the traditional publishing world, and I'm quite happy with that. In my mind, doing it that way....my way, is much more fulfilling and satisfying than having it all handed to me just because I know someone or develop some contacts inside the traditional industry.

The victory is so much sweeter when you have to really work for it....get creative and find a way to make it happen all on your own.

That's also why I have such high confidence in the Candle'Bre team. We're not doing things by the book. We're not doing things according to the way it's "supposed to be done," but you know something odd? It's working anyway! It's working cos we're out there, day in and day out making the magic happen.

And, we're doing it our way....that's really cool.

So...if your cutting comments were meant to bait me into a fight, it's not working...there is no fight. We have a different way of doing things, that's all.

Maybe our way will prove to be pure folly....but what if it's not? What if it's not....

-=Vel=-

[xRamsesx]

GP, instead of providing constructive criticism as you originally claimed was your intention, your latest posts have been nothing more than personal attacks directed at Vel. He's been too much of a gentleman to attack you back, and even in his last post where anyone else would have burst right back at you he just brushed it off.

It's no coincidence that all the guys & gals on the team volunteered to help when Vel brought up the idea of Candle'Bre. I'm sure I speak for all when i say we all have the uptmost respect for Vel. And what respect we had for him initially has grown ten-fold after working with him for only a few weeks.

I suggest you take a moment to think about that. After all, "cutting comments" are easy to make, staying civil is much harder to achieve.

[Velociryx]

Ramses....there are no words, my friend. And thank you. I have learned sooooo much from you guys in the short time we've been creating together so far, and we've only just begun!

Whoever said there was not much creative life and energy left in this business has obviously never encountered any of the people I work with, nor any of the folks who have been offering up the *excellent* game ideas in this forum.

We're gonna do this...and when we do, everybody who had their doubts is gonna say it was a fluke....blind luck....which means we'll just have to saddle up and do it again.

But I like proving people wrong.

-=Vel=-
(second star to the right, and straight on til morning)

[TCO]

I put smilies in...

[TCO]

I agree that Vel is a gentleman. Ummm...I'm just not as evil as you think...

now let's all "be open" and hold hands and sing kumbayah...

[Velociryx]

Oh...I don't think anybody regards you as evil, GP....I would say, if I had to guess, that your comments stem from two possible things (could be wrong here, this is just me musing):

First, you're testing the limits of our policy of openness. See if we get all defensive if things aren't always glowing and positive. If that's been a part of it, I think we passed the test thus far.

And second, because a genuine spirit of openness and collaboration is almost unheard of in this or any other business. Everybody's gotta protect their turf, under the traditional model. It's okay to quietly shop around for ideas, so long as you can make everybody think they were really yours all along, in the end.

But that's not how we do things...it's not what we're about.

Case in point....a minor example, but it's important for illustrative purposes:

'bout two months ago, the team leads (Cathy and Ramses) and I were mailing back and forth about the project, and finding ways of getting timely, accurate information into the hands of everybody involved in the project. Cathy recommended a Candle'Bre newsletter as a vehicle for doing that, and both Ramses and I thought that was perfect! So...I started up a thread and made the announcement to the group as a whole, and got a number of virtual pats on the back for an outstanding idea.

Now...at that point, I could have done the very same thing that happens sooooo often in the "regular" business world. Nobody but Ram and Cathy KNEW it wasn't my idea, and I could have nodded and smiled and accepted the kudos for bein' so darned smart.

But that's not what happened. I told everybody that if they wanted to thank someone, then Cathy was the person they oughta be thanking, cos the idea was hers entirely.

A bit later, I got a number of e-mails on that topic, essentially saying how refreshing it was to work on a project and in an environment where credit was given so freely for ideas that turned out to be wildly popular.

That kind of thinking permeates everything we do...everything we touch. It fosters a great deal of trust and harmony in the work envrionment, and it does amazing things to creativity. Nobody holds anything back....and that's awesome. You don't find that in many (if any) corporate offices. Too much turf protection going on for it to happen.

But of course, it's another thing that sets the group and our methodology apart, and in the business world, when something is unlike the rest of the herd, it is viewed with suspicion at best and outright disdain at worst.

So despite how it might appear, it's not all about holding hands and singing Kumbayah....there's a method to the madness. When people study chaos theory, the first thing they're struck by is the sheer seething randomness of it all.

The second thing they're struck by is the spooky sense of order that stands behind all that randomness....

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

Originally posted by Velociryx
When people study chaos theory, the first thing they're struck by is the sheer seething randomness of it all.

The second thing they're struck by is the spooky sense of order that stands behind all that randomness....

-=Vel=-

I'll teach him maths yet!

[Velociryx]

I'm game if you are, Master Chowlett!

-=Vel=-

[moomin]

Originally posted by Velociryx
'bout two months ago, the team leads (Cathy and Ramses) and I were mailing back and forth about the project, and finding ways of getting timely, accurate information into the hands of everybody involved in the project. Cathy recommended a Candle'Bre newsletter as a vehicle for doing that, and both Ramses and I thought that was perfect! So...I started up a thread and made the announcement to the group as a whole, and got a number of virtual pats on the back for an outstanding idea.

Now...at that point, I could have done the very same thing that happens sooooo often in the "regular" business world. Nobody but Ram and Cathy KNEW it wasn't my idea, and I could have nodded and smiled and accepted the kudos for bein' so darned smart.

But that's not what happened. I told everybody that if they wanted to thank someone, then Cathy was the person they oughta be thanking, cos the idea was hers entirely.

A bit later, I got a number of e-mails on that topic, essentially saying how refreshing it was to work on a project and in an environment where credit was given so freely for ideas that turned out to be wildly popular.

While I agree your handling the situation was good, you really shouldn't hold the corporate world to the standards of Dilbert. While corporate politics grow with the size of the company and can get quite ugly, there are lot of good managers who wouldn't imagine taking credits for co-workers ideas, if not out of the goodness of their hearts then simply because they're not crazy enough to take the morale hit.

Where I work, we got an conference system where people not only log their ideas but where the team actually votes on them - we done away with all but one meeting per fortnight in this manner. I have the right to veto, which I've used exactly twice in as many years. Openess and sharing is certainly not lacking in any decent commercial environment. And stealing ideas of stifling creativity is so far from our agenda I wouldn't know to where to begin if somebody suggested we'd do that.

[moomin]

Originally posted by ravagon
Didn't Microprose do something similar though with their CiC and FW expansions having "Best of Net" sections?
Or is this an issue relating to open-source specifically?

It's mostly an OS thing, really. Coming up with a decent commercial license that says "all your work is belong to us" isn't all that difficult... but doing it under general OS rules is a neat trick. And while going OS generates lots of free buzz, doing it wrong generates even more badwill, as Apple is finding out with their crummy Darwin license. It's not so much a legal question as one of not incurring the wrath of the OS zealots.

[Velociryx]

"All your work is belong to us!"

Now THAT was funny!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Well said, Trooper. And I know that there are some good environments out there to work in...I've had the pleasure to work in a handful of them.

I've also had the misfortune to work in that "other type" and, having spent ten years doing contract work, I can sadly report that the latter far, FAR outnumber the former....at least in my own experiences.

I've worked in exactly three places that truly fostered the creative environment...all the rest have been varrying degress of fiefdoms and turf wars...everybody so caught up in protecting their "space" that it was a wonder much of anything got done.

So...while I'm not exactly trying to Dilbertize the whole industry, I've seen an awful lot of examples of that very thing. 's crazy, but it's out there.

-=Vel=-

[moomin]

You gotta stick to the good ends of the industry, is all.

I've worked in an environment with more than 25 co-workers once in my life. For fourteen weeks...

But in my book, a small company or outfit simply has no business being stifling and "turfish". That's, after all, what we got the megacorps for

[Velociryx]

Quite true....most of my contract work HAS been for those aforementioned megacorps, and it's very much like swimming in shark infested waters with a bleeding arm....not a pretty picture...UGH

-=Vel=-

[Urban Ranger]

Maybe GP is trying to get you to think outside of your box? It's always good to have somebody coming from the opposite direction, since he can spot things that you have missed.

Then again, maybe not

[TCO]

Sometimes my points are acerbic. Because (A) I like that kind of teasing, (B) I need to get you to think.

Depending on situation, amount of each rationale may vary.

But at the end, even if I tease you, I like y'all and want you to do well...even think that I may toughen your skins to help you. And that having a tough skin and ability to look at the project (at least occasionaly) in a dispassionate manner can be helpful.

And I sometimes have some real content points.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by GP
I'm just not as evil as you think...

Second time in 2 days you've said that.

I think that in most cases you seem to be trying to apply the lessons learned with both Civ3 and Moo3.
While there may be much to be learned from the mistakes made therein, most of these seem to be of the "The bigger you are the harder you fall" variety, and as such just aren't particularly applicable to Velocigames (as yet anyway - they won't be minnows forever ).


[And I wish you people would stop knocking Dilbert! ]

[TCO]

dp