design versus coding

[Velociryx]

tniem: An excellent point! Actually, the chief advantage in going open source will be in terms of marketing and awareness. Open source allows us to become the darlings of both SourceForge and Slashdot....LOTS of eyeballs on both of those places. That, combined with our presence on 'poly *should* see us getting the game in front of a whooooole lotta people!

As we have discovered, since our project is above and beyond the scope of many/most of our peer projects on sourceforge, there's really not been any interesting code we've been able to use, to my knowledge, however, if we were to, then yes....we'd have to remove those pieces and come up with our own solutions to whatever problems those code segments were solving for us.

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Do you have any analysis to show that your hypothesis is correct. (Being the darling of Sourceforge will sell the game?)

[Velociryx]

Don't have any hard numbers behind that, no....however, my thinking is that the more people who know about the game increases the overall awareness, and almost has to increase the chances that some will buy when we get to that point.

Right now though, my main goal is to get as many people as possible *aware* of what we're doing.

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Just make a good game. Than advertising is easy. if it stinks...no amount of advertising will help it.

[tniem]

Originally posted by GP
Just make a good game. Than advertising is easy. if it stinks...no amount of advertising will help it.

Ah but what Vel is also attempting to do is but it in front enough people that if the team cannot figure something out either coding or grahapically then they will have a base to call on others to help out.

I just was wondering about that part of the game design but I guess if your not really planning on using any code than I guess you will be ok.

[moomin]

There are open-source licences that aren't viral. But as far as I know, most OS game engines go GPL, which is.

[TCO]

Originally posted by tniem

Ah but what Vel is also attempting to do is but it in front enough people that if the team cannot figure something out either coding or grahapically then they will have a base to call on others to help out.

I just was wondering about that part of the game design but I guess if your not really planning on using any code than I guess you will be ok.

Earlier in the thread, they said that there initial hope was to get technical help but since the game will be quite advanced, that is unlikely to be a significant issue. At this point, general marketing goodwill is the rationale for the "drop your skirt" policy.

[moomin]

I think you're somewhat underplaying the very real possibility to get some substancial help with their own code base.

[TCO]

Read their own earlier posts on that issue.

[TCO]

...Actually, the chief advantage in going open source will be in terms of marketing and awareness. Open source allows us to become the darlings of both SourceForge and Slashdot....LOTS of eyeballs on both of those places. That, combined with our presence on 'poly *should* see us getting the game in front of a whooooole lotta people!

As we have discovered, since our project is above and beyond the scope of many/most of our peer projects on sourceforge, there's really not been any interesting code we've been able to use...

[moomin]

Oh, I don't expect them to get any major code done for free, as it were. I'd be astonished beyond belief if they didn't get mucho help squishing bugs, though.

[alva]

You 'd be surprised how many company's started off as
idealistic adventures to change the world and make it a better place

Then somewhere on the line...............

[ravagon]

Originally posted by alva848
You 'd be surprised how many company's started off as
idealistic adventures to change the world and make it a better place

Then somewhere on the line...............

Very true - but then those are the ones you tend to hear about.
In this case I would tend to borrow that old axiom - If you look hard enough you will find something - whether its there or not.

If people start divvying up the profits before such, in fact, exist, poking holes in contractual clauses and looking for loopholes they bring about an atmosphere that makes it much more likely to fail.
This being an entirely voluntary process, taking place in the participants spare time, and with what resources they can scrape together, is pretty much dependent on the very lack of such a mindset.

Should those involved find out the hard way that notions of "fair", "equitable" and "ownership" just don't work out - then well and good - they can take it as a life lesson, at relatively low cost, and move on.

If OTOH things do work out as they're planning, they'll be so much the better off for relying on each other and in a position to build on what they've created.

That came out much more hand-wavy than I'd intended but I'm sure you get the idea...

[TCO]

Maybe you all should check out their site. Learn something from it? Pick up some volunteers? Interestingly enough they mentioned all the other happening civ projects but not Candy.

[FrustratedPoet]

GGS?

[Cyclotron]

Guns, Germs and Steel.

It looks to me that GGS had no coding/programming team, just some people with ideas. Ideas are good and all, but I think CB is already more developed as far as an official coding team and actual game programming.

[DeepO]

Maybe they have some extra artists, though... you can't have enough of them

DeepO

[Leland]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Guns, Germs and Steel.

It looks to me that GGS had no coding/programming team, just some people with ideas.

Actually, we did, but the coding discussions (which, unfortunately, didn't produce much by way of code. UI framework and lots of software architecture schemes, that's it) were conducted via mailing lists so it wasn't visible at Apolyton.

Sure ways to kill a project (IMHO):

1) Lack of motivation to do the dirty work.
2) Not knowing what you really want, or not being able to communicate it with the rest of the team/community

Candle'Bre seems to at least avoid these two hurdles, so good luck.

EDIT: Oh, about GGS website... the last time it was updated was maybe a year or two before Candle'Bre. I guess I should get up and delete the damn thing someday, didn't realize people still actually bump into it these days...

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Leland
Actually, we did, but the coding discussions (which, unfortunately, didn't produce much by way of code. UI framework and lots of software architecture schemes, that's it) were conducted via mailing lists so it wasn't visible at Apolyton.

Fair enough. I can't say I really monitored GGS, for the most part since I didn't start reading the book until a few weeks ago.

Candle'Bre seems to at least avoid these two hurdles, so good luck.

Thanks. Does anybody on the GGS team want to help out?

[TCO]

Give us a coordinated update on the status of the project (different areas: art, coding, documentation, silly real estate schemes, etc. etc.) I want to know tangibley where we are. how much remains to be done. (In man-hours). by know, if you have any project management skills and any feel for the project, you should be able to make estimates of man-hours of work required for tasks.

[Velociryx]

Apologies for the delay in responding....been sorta wrapped up in stuff, and haven't had a chance to come here and hang out!

As to timetables and schedules....having learned my lesson the last time I made some kind of firm (okay, semi-firm) estimates on getting the game complete enough to release for beta testing, I'm not too willing to talk much about it again (not for fear of any massive backlash if I'm wrong, I just....don't like bein' wrong.... )

Things are rolling along at a good pace, however, and in the way of an update, here's a snapshot of where we are:

Sounds: Still lacking in numerous areas, but we've got the biggies covered (main theme & battle music, and we've got some spell sound effects in place). I don't regard this as crucial to the game's early release, so expect these to be added on to fill in the gaps once we get. Man-hours remaining - who the heck knows? The sound effects, we're making ourselves (at--and I'm guessing here, 1.5 hours per, * 130 spells - about a dozen), but for the others, we're buying them as we find good ones. How long does it take to search a database of 2 million sounds? I dunno.

Art: We're done but for the tweaking, as far as I am concerned. Hex and Busta have been *cranking* the goods out at a furious pace, with Hex doing screens and provincial improvements at a blistering pace, and Busta doing the same with the terrains. I'd never have dreamed that it would come together as quickly as it has.

Code-Work: A big black-box of a mystery to me. I put crazy ideas on paper, and the wizards go to work making it make sense to the computer. Man hour estimates here would be a) tough to give, and b) without the context of hours per week devoted to the project, any number I put forth will be meaningless (and being that we're doing this in our spare time, there's no telling how many hours per week we will log, collectively, on the project). Lots of progress has been made, however, with recent additions including (*as Vel goes to the staff fora to do some quick copying and pasting):

* Color-Coded (by faction) border assignments in place. Now, it's easy to tell at a glance who controls what, based on the border color.

* First generation VBP system in place (VBP = Variable Build Points). Up till now, when you "built" a provincial improvement, you got it at the start of your next turn. From the beginning, this was seen as a stopgap measure and I'm glad we got it replaced with the VBP system before beta release (wasn't sure if we'd squeeze that in). The way it works is that each turn (provided a building has been ordered), a province you control generates a number of build points that "go toward" whatever building(s) you're working on. BP's are non-transferrable between provinces, and do not carry over (ie - if you're building multiple buildings in sequence). When the BP's generated = the BP cost of the slated building, you get it (and in the meantime, we've got an "under construction" graphic to display where the building will go). The number of BP's you get per turn is based on the economic value of the province and its current loyalty. The biggest boon that comes from doing it this way is that if you're in no particular hurry to get your buildings, you can order simultaneous construction of stuff. So far, we don't have a means of cancelling a build (that I know of), but I'd imagine it's coming.

* First generation of "Inviso-units" in place. Income is carried by mounted Tax Collectors back to your capitol province (mounted units move two provinces per turn). You don't get the coin till they reach your capitol. They're invisible, so you (obviously) don't see them and can't know precisely where they are, but if they travel thru rival territories (and they might, if it's the shortest path--but not if you are actively at war with them), there's a chance that your TC's could get captured....amounting to free gold for your rivals. As has been pointed out, this provides a subtle "break" on expansion, as far-flung territories, far from your capitol will take relatively longer to make money from, and the risks that you'll lose that money en route back to your coffers increases.

Likewise, Diplomats are handled in the same fashion....it takes time to get your diplomats from place to place (even with magical assistance), and this is reflected using the same system.

Likewise technological innovation. When you gain a tech "level" the benefits are available immediately in your capitol province, and the spread of that knowledge branches out from there to the rest of your Kingdom (in the case of global effects, these still take place immediately--ie, if you gain a tech that gives all infantry +1 on their attack values, that happens as soon as you get the tech...OTOH, if you get a tech advance allowing the construction of a Cathedral, you only gain the ability to do so once the knowledge of the advance has "spread" to the particular province you're looking to build in.

How much remains to be done? Depends on what you mean. Until the game is completely finished? No way to tell, as that will not happen till long after the beta releases, and we're not there yet.

How long until we're ready to beta release? Also unknown....it's more of a feeling than a set of specs. After each alpha release, we play it. If it doesn't feel ready yet, we go back and work on it some more and repeat (which is how the ideas above came to be).

What we don't want to do is to turn out an early beta that feels incomplete. As has been a stated goal since before we got down to business, when you get the game, it will be playable from start to finish, and we'll use your feedback and ideas to continually improve and expand it.

Next alpha build is expected in a matter of days, and we'll see how it "feels" then....

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

I want the numbers. What happened to openness? It died a quick death.

[Velociryx]

I'd have to heartily disagree there, GP! If you but look at this thread (and this forum in general), you'll see a whole lotta openness going on (sporadic, it's true, and that is entirely my fault!)

However, any numbers I could give you would be just this side of meaningless. IF we were working on the project full time, and I could say that we were approximately 500 hours from completion, and were devoting 100 hours a week to the game, then yes. That gives a good estimate.

But if I say we're approximately 500 hours from completion, and I have no firm idea of how many hours we'll be able to log to the project in a given week....the data is not of much use.

But we're getting there, and should have a new alpha by the weekend.

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I'd have to heartily disagree there, GP! If you but look at this thread (and this forum in general), you'll see a whole lotta openness going on (sporadic, it's true, and that is entirely my fault!)

However, any numbers I could give you would be just this side of meaningless. IF we were working on the project full time, and I could say that we were approximately 500 hours from completion, and were devoting 100 hours a week to the game, then yes. That gives a good estimate.

But if I say we're approximately 500 hours from completion, and I have no firm idea of how many hours we'll be able to log to the project in a given week....the data is not of much use.

But we're getting there, and should have a new alpha by the weekend.

-=Vel=-

Disagree. It is still usefull to estimate how much work is left and look at what rate of work is beiung performed or is requred to be performed to get the job done by a specific date. Stop gliding and sliding...

[BustaMike]

Rest assured, I am working hard to completely sabotage the project from the inside out without anyone knowing about it. It will never be done, never, A HA Ha HAHA HA *cough* uh.....

[SithUK]

Vel: Why are you even bothering to repsond to this rude, cynical troll? He reminds me of a spoilt brat who is screaming for his next new toy.

GP: It would do you well to realise that this is a project which is hoping to deliver a free game to us. They are devoting a lot of their time to s'thing they enjoy doing. For fun. What have you done to help?

Thought so. Nothing. Stop *****ing and give them a little love and encouragement instead of this:

I want to know tangibley

For a start you are in NO position to make demands of this fine group of people. Oh and buy a dictionary if you want to use fancy words. Better yet:

http://dictionary.reference.com/

I want the numbers. What happened to openness? It died a quick death.

Sigh.... Do you have money invested in this? Have you spent many hours working on it? Why exactly do you think you deserve any information at all?

Stop gliding and sliding...

Why should they do anything but what they want to? LMAO You really think an ignorant arrogrant self obsessed twit like you is in any position to order this group about?


*rant off*

Sorry Vel but you guys are far too nice for your own good s'times Don't take crap like this from any1 and sure as heck don't give them the satisfaction of a reply!

Keep up the excellent work and you can be assured I'll take the time to test whatever you put up here.

Sith

[TCO]

I suspect the failure to answer questions is because of embarassment. That is silly. Instead be honest. If you can be open about the project status to a troll like me (and yes, I am deliberately provocative) than you can also be true to yourself. I suspect that is really something that Vel needs and that any project like this needs.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by GP
I suspect the failure to answer questions is because of embarassment. That is silly. Instead be honest. If you can be open about the project status to a troll like me (and yes, I am deliberately provocative) than you can also be true to yourself. I suspect that is really something that Vel needs and that any project like this needs.

What a load of crap...

OK, I'll be honest too...You are a troll. This is not to incite a flame war, since you called yourself that name anyhow. For those who are reading this thread, there is no doubt what your true nature is...and I especially love it when 'said troll' saves others the trouble of pointing out his nature.

The project is a lot of work, and providing an accurate estimate is impossible, given the fact that we all are doing this on a voluntary basis. All of us have outside lives to live, and many of us cannot work on this project 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week as if this was a full time occupation. To put in in perspective, many games take 1-2 years to go from concept to full fruition, and this by full time programmers, artists and testers. (Candle'Bre has been in development for a little more than a year - by volunteers.)

The game will be done when it is done. If you have nothing to offer to the project, go out and play something else until this game is done. Goodness knows that there is enough options to fill the time - and it is somewhat pathetic when people feel the need to whine over the status of a volunteer project as if the need to play that game is a life-or-death issue.

Sorry Vel, I cannot tolerate ungracious people - and my comments are not meant to reflect badly on you or our team. You've been more than polite in this - and rest assured, there is a great deal of committment to put out a professional-grade game from Vel, as well as everyone involved with this project.

[Velociryx]

There are lots of reasons why I have been slow to respond again here, but one thing you can be sure of, embarassment had nothing at all to do with it.

No, chief among those reasons would be:

1) Introspection: I had no desire to write my reply from an emotional point of view. You're looking for information, not emotionalism, and that is what I will attempt to provide below.

2) Structure: The structure of the Candle'Bre Development Team is unlike the structure of a "classical" project, in that we don't HAVE TO have the game finished by any particular date. There are no investors to hound us. There is no publisher to give us grief. There's only a group of guys (and gals), doing what we enjoy doing with our free time. To introduce deadlines into such an environment is to place false pressure on team members (ie - pressures where none actually exist), for if the game as a whole doesn't have to be finished by any particular date, then neither do any of the component parts that make it up.

Could I? Could I start pressuring team members for firm deadline on components? Sure. And what I'd wind up with would be a less-fun, less-engaging, less-creative environment to work in. No thanks. If I'm going to do this (and I am), then it's going to be fun, or it's not worth my time.

I'd also wind up with a smaller group to work with, which is not what I want. Smaller, because nobody wants to VOLUNTEER their time to a project led by a wanna be Darth Vader. I start demanding deadlines from people I can't pay, and I start losing volunteers. I start losing volunteers and the project itself is dimished, because everyone on the team plays an important role in weaving the tapestry together.

The solution then, is simple. If I want to create an environment that's fun to work in, and focuses on the creative process, the very first thing we did was to throw the whole concept of the "deadline" out the virtual window.

No deadlines on this team. No false pressures. In fact (and you can ask any member of the team you like), the words "deadline" and "schedule" have never come up in any meaningful way in any of our team meetings, nor in any of my individual dealings with any team member.

I want the volunteers of this project to spend what free time they are willing to devote to it on the GAME, not on the schedule of the game.

Every minute someone spends "estimating" how long such and so will take is a wasted minute on this team (and a minute that could have gone into making something FOR the game).

We don't need schedules, so we don't use schedules. The word simply isn't in our vocabulary, nor is it in the team's structure.

3) Experimentation: I'm pretty sure that everyone who has been following our efforts knows that this is our first try at this type of thing. What does that mean? Specifically, it means that we f*ck up! We try stuff that doesn't work, and have to go back and redo it, or try something else.

We do that a lot. Less and less these days, but it happens, and WHEN it happens, we shrug it off and learn from it.

In terms of screwing stuff up, I think I have to be the King Daddy of the bunch! I can't even begin to tell you how many times I had to write, re-write, and then re-write the core rules again, cos they simply weren't what we wanted and needed.

And I did.

These days, when we come up with an idea to make the game better, I can usually nail the codification of it on the first or second try, but it took me a while to get to that point.

4) Motivation: I want everybody on the team to be motivated by the GAME, not by an arbitrary deadline. Deadlines are boring and droll. The game is not. Therefore, if we can stay motivated and focused on the long term goal (a public release of the game and then, subsequent improvement), that's much superior than staying focused on having a specific widget for the game out by next wednesday because mean ol Darth Vel keeps hounding me for it.

and finally, there's me.

I'm the real reason that there are no schedules and timetables.

Why?

For no other reason than cos I'm not a schedule and timetable kind of guy. I'm a "follow the stream to see where it leads" kind of guy.

At the end of the day, there is one voice that speaks for Candle'Bre. One voice that says what's in, and what's not in the game, and that is utterly necessary for the project to succeed with any sort of cohesion.

What's not needed in that process is a dictatorial bent, and dispite the "one voice" thing mentioned above, I do not believe that anybody on the team will tell you that they view CB as a dictatorship, cos it's not. It has become the most open, creativity-filled environment I have ever had the pleasure to work in, and I wouldn't change a thing in that regard.

I wish I could tell you, cos I don't like having folks walk away with a sense that I'm not being open and honest.

I'm being as open and honest as I can be, given the information you're asking for.

I don't have it, nor would I ask any member of the team to give it to me. I'd rather have their attention focused exactly where it is....

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Just because it is a volunteer project is no reason to do away with project management and scheduling. Otherwise, you will probably never finish the project. How many of these games get finished? Where is GGS? If you don't push the schedule and think about it, you will never accomplish anything. Better to finish a simple game than never finish a complicated game. Unless, you all are comfortable with not finishing...