Brazil as a great civ of the *future*

[Dom Pedro II]

I think Brazil should be included if there were 16 new civs, I'd say Brazil should be included. I've never said Brazil should definitely be one of the eight, but I certainly don't appreciate all of the Brazil-slamming going on.

[Grrr]

Brazil will fill the gap on the world map nicely, that is for sure.

[nationalist]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
"im not defending all of the united states actions for the last 225 years,"

100 good deeds does not justify a single evil act.

Be realistic. What utopia do you live in?

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
I think Brazil should be included if there were 16 new civs, I'd say Brazil should be included. I've never said Brazil should definitely be one of the eight, but I certainly don't appreciate all of the Brazil-slamming going on.

As opposed to the repeated USA bashing? I can live with USA bashing, why can't you do the same with Brazil? I don't pretend to know anything about Brazil. I am sure however that you know more about the USA than I do of Brazil.

And that should tell you something.

[Dom Pedro II]

Hey, my U.S. bashing was a retaliatory strike... I live in the f*ckin' United States of Hypocracy for god sakes! My friends lost family in the World Trade Center. I live five miles from Ground Zero. My father lost his job as a result of 9-11. I don't hate the United States (not its ideal), but I DO hate what it has BECOME. And frankly, if we had stayed in our own godd*mn hemisphere... 3,000 people would still be alive today.

[nationalist]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
frankly, if we had stayed in our own godd*mn hemisphere... 3,000 people would still be alive today.

We're not allowed to. Remeber last year, before Sept. 11th, when the U.S. was becoming somewhat more isolationists? The Europeans raised hell. The world loves our help, but hates our interferance. Somewhat of a double standard. I think the quote "If the United States stays out of foreign affairs, it is accused of being isolationist. If it gets involved, it is accused of being Imperialist" applies. I think that most Americans would love to stop getting involved with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as if that is possible.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by nationalist


We're not allowed to. Remeber last year, before Sept. 11th, when the U.S. was becoming somewhat more isolationists? The Europeans raised hell. The world loves our help, but hates our interferance. Somewhat of a double standard. I think the quote "If the United States stays out of foreign affairs, it is accused of being isolationist. If it gets involved, it is accused of being Imperialist" applies. I think that most Americans would love to stop getting involved with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as if that is possible.

Exactly.

However I don't see why Brazil shouldn't be in the game, it's.......big.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
And frankly, if we had stayed in our own godd*mn hemisphere... 3,000 people would still be alive today.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until I saw this statement. I find this statement to be extremely insulting, both to myself and to those who lost their lives. The US govt didn't fly those planes.

With great power comes great responsibility, I heard that somewhere recently. and that is something that Brazil will never understand. It is far easier to be a third rate country, criticizing the US, when there is no chance of itself being put in the same situations.

Have a nice day.

I'm sure, when someone invades your country (for what reason, I have no idea) that the US will save your skins. See you then.

[Grrr]

Brazil has power over the future. So they should be included, a bit like Ethiopia.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Grrr
Brazil has power over the future. So they should be included, a bit like Ethiopia.

not after we napalm those rainforests

[Miznia]

Ethiopia has power over the future?!

I'm not sure I want to see Incas in Brazil.

3) If you think of Brazil as a 'future glorious Civilization', why not Argentina, Canada or Mexico?

Argentina and Mexico are Spanish off-shoots that will never compare with Spain's historical influence. Mexico's spot on the map is taken by the Aztecs, and it's possible to say that the Aztecs *become* Mexico. Canada and Argentina both have WAY too few people (both under 40mil I think). Finally, Canada is outshined by the U.S. in the region, not unique enough, and wouldn't fill a gaping hole like Brazil would.

Which is not to say that I necessarily think Brazil should be in the game...

[FrostyBoy]

You all have to remember that Firaxis don't see the World Map as the ONLY map.

[Alex]

I am sure however that you know more about the USA than I do of Brazil. And that should tell you something.

That we know geography and history better than you? Come on, this is a moot point.

I'm sure, when someone invades your country (for what reason, I have no idea) that the US will save your skins. See you then.

Don't forget to bring your sun-tan lotion with you.

As you said, there is no reason why someone would like to invade our country. Unless we are talking about rainforest and its richness... But you already have plans for that, don't you?

So, I could say we have a win-win situation here: we all agree that Brazil should not be seen as a civilization but that it would fill a spot on the map nicely. And we all agree that you are strong and valiant and that I can drink my caipirinha in peace.

Beware of our monkeys...

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Alexnm

Don't forget to bring your sun-tan lotion with you.

As you said, there is no reason why someone would like to invade our country. Unless we are talking about rainforest and its richness... But you already have plans for that, don't you?

Uh, no, no plans to invade, just to, uh, go to Carnival. uh.

Originally posted by Alexnm
So, I could say we have a win-win situation here: we all agree that Brazil should not be seen as a civilization but that it would fill a spot on the map nicely. And we all agree that you are strong and valiant and that I can drink my caipirinha in peace.

Beware of our monkeys...

I have no idea what a caipirinha is, so assuming it isn't portugese for "the blood of an American virgin" we can go in peace.

Monkeys- one reason to stay away.

[Weymaster]

Oh well... this has become a public debate about why/why not should Brazil and the States be included in Civ3... First of all the States are included for two main reasons: 1) The game has been programmed in the US, so it would be a stupid marketing choice not to include it, and 2) Like it or not, the States are the most powerful civilization around, so not including it would be to deny their success...

When talking about a great Brazilian civilization "into the future", then you should work on a Mod for Alpha Centauri. While Brazil is a very important force in the South American region, it is not for the rest of the world. Again, less "big and populated" countries have had more impact on the world than Brazil. An example? The little island-state of Cuba: They invaded Angola, almost triggered a Third World War, helped (with the cooperation of the US and Russia) to shape the politics and wars of Central America, their leader, Fidel Castro, has been in power against all American wishes, and finally, if Castro leaves the presidential seat someday, Cuba will be a very developed country because of their high education standards (there is a saying that in Cuba, even the prostitutes have a Masters degree)...

On the other hand... come on! All civilizations that have "endured the test of time" have relied on economic, diplomatic and mostly military means to achieve their success, and almost every time by subduing other nations! The Aztecs conquered most of Mexico to achieve an Empire (destroying and enslaving other civilizations, by the way); the French? Remember Napoleon; Germany? Hitler rings a bell?; How about China (Vietnam), or Rome? Isolationism is never the key to success in world politics... and Brazil is a very isolationist country.

Now, if you want a South American civilization, the best choice is the Inca Nation. Period.

[BigBear]

I am so sick of people coming on here and bashing the United States. Just like Brazil would if it were in the position the U.S is, we get all the blame and bashing that people feel they need to say. Politics are far more complicated than Good and Evil. There are more sides to a conflict than the right and the wrong.

I get so angry when 20 something jerks come on here and decide to go through their history books and journals to bring up stories of US wrong doing. Don't you have anything better to do?

Not to mention, whats wrong with the US trying to better itself in the world? What kind of nation thrives when it puts all of its effort into helping other people out? Show me one purely good world power that has never done anything for itself and itself only, and I will never say another word.

[3rdTrial]

Let me give my 2 cents.

1- 3 brazilians who influentiated the world, (actually 5, pick 3)

1) Pedro II -> Few people actually know but it was this brazilian emperror who financed GramBell (the telephone's inventor), and Brazil (I know it is difficult to believe) had phones before US(provided only for the few).

2) I don't remember his name only the nickname - "aquia de Haia" or "Haia's eagle". He is known to be the most important diplomat of the 1800. He resolved disputes on borders between countries (including but not restricted to Brazilian borders). He himself resolved more border disputes then the ONU ever did on all its years, and without wars. This has to count as something major.

3) Santos Dumond - alredy mentioned, btw he also was the inventor of the wrist watch.

4) Carlos Gomes - Renow composer, considered perhaps one of the most important "maestros" of the classic music.

4) Pele' - Americans don't play it (at least not well) but the amazing game of Pele' was one of the things that helped make soccer popular around the world. Play sports don't do war!

Yes, Brazil is a pacifist Nation, with a lot to contribute. Unfortunatelly, even brazilians know very little about their origins. True that a lot of important Brazilians lived outside brazil, but they exist.

Brazil had another important contribution to be considered a CIV. Brazil was the first country to successfuly integrate native, european and black culture building a unique culture of its own. (US have not been able to do this yet, it has the components but the culture it is still fragmented)

If one considers a civilization by the level of influence and culture that it has, then definetely Brazil qualifies.

Now, despite what I wrote, I do thing that South America would be better represented by the Incas.....

[Alex]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

I have no idea what a caipirinha is, so assuming it isn't portugese for "the blood of an American virgin" we can go in peace.

Monkeys- one reason to stay away.

Caipirinha - our national Tequila... but I like your idea about American virgins... bring 'em on!

And our monkeys don't bite -- you just have to feed 'em a little.

All civilizations that have "endured the test of time" have relied on economic, diplomatic and mostly military means to achieve their success, and almost every time by subduing other nations! (...) Isolationism is never the key to success in world politics... and Brazil is a very isolationist country.

That is partly true. Yes, we don't like wars. We are mostly pacifists. But from 1864 to 1870, Brazil fought in the War of the Triple Alliance against Paraguay, not only conquering land and resources, but also almost decimating Paraguay's male population and crippling their development. Not something to be proud of, I know, but helps to show that we can be very nasty sometimes... Like most of all nations, I guess.

Here's a link for the War of the Triple Alliance (very few information, but it is a start):

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/T/TripAlWar.asp

[Alex]

3rdTrial: thank you for your kind words. Oh, the diplomat known as "Haia's Eagle" was Rui Barbosa.

And yes, South America would be best represented by the Incas...

[JamesJKirk]

The little island-state of Cuba: They invaded Angola, almost triggered a Third World War

Actually some recently declassified things show that the US actually invaded Angola first, but didn't mention anything until Cuba invaded later.

Granted not as frightening as this but still something nonetheless.

Back OT, I can see arguements either way, I do think there's a need for a more modern civ, and Brazil may yet hit its heyday in the timeframe provided by the game, and that continent sure is empty....

[Dom Pedro II]

New Idea: featuring... Brazil as a Wonder of the World!

Function: In the event of war, all the participating national leaders take a vacation, chill out, and cool off a bit. Peace is resumed.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until I saw this statement. I find this statement to be extremely insulting, both to myself and to those who lost their lives. The US govt didn't fly those planes.

Alright, I acknowledge that I have become quite heated by this topic, but I've also been surrounded by "my country right or wrong" dumbasses for the last eight months trying to shove this patriotism (or should I say jingoist) crap down my throats. I fight nearly daily with my teacher who is ridiculously pro-American even when the U.S. is plainly in the wrong.

While of course the U.S. government didn't fly those planes into those buildings, few people even bother to acknowledge the fact that we helped finance for a very long time the people who have attacked us. The CIA declared the holy war. The CIA financed Osama Bin Laden. The CIA helped create Hamas. We have to accept that if we help dangerous people and then refuse to help them, its going to piss them off. The United States has to abandon this half-assed foreign policy in the middle east (and everywhere) if we want to protect ourselves. The fact is that the American government suffers from the same affliction as its people: a short attention span. We get involved... and then we just get bored with it and abandon it.

And with regards to the U.S. helping out the world, while I do not argue that the U.S. has done good things (World War II being the best), 99% of the time it is because the United States holds the world in such utter contempt. I can't tell you how many times during Kosovo I had to hear "we go in cuz they can't handle sh*t in their own backyard!" For christ sake if you don't genuinely want to help, THEN DON'T! Since you all think the rest of the world is against you, why do you even care if they call you isolationist then? I mean, we can help out to satisfy our own self-righteous needs but we don't even give a damn enough about other cultures to include them in American mainstream society. It is an egocentric country. Around the world, people watch American movies, listen to American music, see American TV shows. How much of the reverse can you say is true? I mean, how much of foreign influence has actually trickled into American contemporary culture? VERY little.

Look, America is like any other empire. It has people that want to make money for themselves who are in charge and then there are people who want to help who are in charge. And its the bad people who flatten Guatemalan cities, fund guerilla groups, sponsor military coups, and so forth... but Americans just pretend like none of this exists! We've been the only empire thats ever felt the need to try to maintain some sort of image of being beneficial to the world, and my God how we do make every little donation public! But, unfortunately, trying to help out because you're trying to show your higher sensibility or satisfy your guilty conscience doesn't do much good when you turn around and do something terrible once again.

People just start saying that all of the countries of the world are criticizing us all the time and that their just jealous of our prosperity. I can personally testify that this is a flat-out lie. When I was in Brazil, there were many people who wanted to go the United States and become an American citizen one day... not just there but in countries the world round people want to get a piece of the prosperity. But the ones who criticize this country are just the most vocal.

And I can't say I blame much of the critics (terrorists and fanatics aside) because what do we do except show ourselves to be a decadent, egocentric, narcissistic lot of people who go around proclaiming ourselves to be the best and the saviors of the world who hoist our democracy on a pedestal and say "you should be like us" and at the same time help put pro-American dictators into power when another country's people doesn't vote our way... i mean, what other word can there be than hypocracy?

THAT is what bothers me... it is that arrogance and that hypocracy that enrages me. I think the U.S. Constitution was one of the most important documents in human history, and I think the U.S. did a great deed in World War II (even if staying out of World War I would've prevented that in the first place, but like I said before, the "we saved your ass" excuse has already worn itself out.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Alexnm


Caipirinha - our national Tequila... but I like your idea about American virgins... bring 'em on!

I was just kidding about the virgins. I mean, seriously an American virgin?

Originally posted by Alexnm
That is partly true. Yes, we don't like wars. We are mostly pacifists. But from 1864 to 1870, Brazil fought in the War of the Triple Alliance against Paraguay, not only conquering land and resources, but also almost decimating Paraguay's male population and crippling their development. Not something to be proud of, I know, but helps to show that we can be very nasty sometimes... Like most of all nations, I guess.

Why not be proud of that? If all the Paraguay males are dead...
I think the slaughter of a people should automatically satisfy the civ requirements. Brazil, you're back in by my book.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
We helped fight in the invasion of Italy in World War Two.

As a historian I can tell you Brazil made no meaningful contribution to the Allied war effort. It, like most of latin America, was simply an opportunist that joined the war only after it became clear the Axis would lose. They did this so they could sieze the assists of German, Italian, & Japanese companies.

We are the next generation super power. Not like the U.S. which uses treachery and deceit to advance itself politically in the world. We have not "influenced" the world as much because we've had the good sense to leave other people alone rather than terrorize them!!!

Nonsensical chest thumping nationalism & anti-americanism a side; Brazil simply is not well positioned for Great Power status. Over the last 30 years annual GDP growth has been 4% but inflation has been 6% (quoted from CIA world fact book), thus in real terms Brazilians have been growing poorer and not richer. Per capita income was $6,500 in the year 2000 but the devaluation of the Real has significantly lowered that number. By contrast the industrialized western countries average between $20,000 to $40,000 and recieve much higher amounts of social benifets.
The only part of the world that has been making significant progress in catching up with the Western powers has been east Asia. The coming century will be dominated by the U.S. China, & the EU. Brazil will remain at best a regional power.

[Dom Pedro II]

Oerdin: I didn't think I could ever possibly meet somebody more pretentious and arrogant and more of an intellectual snob than myself, but you have proven me quite wrong. You far exceed any level of conceit I could possibly attain.

As a historian I can tell you Brazil made no meaningful contribution to the Allied war effort. It, like most of latin America, was simply an opportunist that joined the war only after it became clear the Axis would lose. They did this so they could sieze the assists of German, Italian, & Japanese companies.

Nonsensical chest thumping nationalism & anti-americanism a side; Brazil simply is not well positioned for Great Power status. Over the last 30 years annual GDP growth has been 4% but inflation has been 6% (quoted from CIA world fact book), thus in real terms Brazilians have been growing poorer and not richer. Per capita income was $6,500 in the year 2000 but the devaluation of the Real has significantly lowered that number. By contrast the industrialized western countries average between $20,000 to $40,000 and recieve much higher amounts of social benifets. The only part of the world that has been making significant progress in catching up with the Western powers has been east Asia. The coming century will be dominated by the U.S. China, & the EU. Brazil will remain at best a regional power.

Oh... I'm sorry... you're right! A thousand pardons! Non-Americans, Bow before the might and power of the only true people who deserve to exist! The Americans!! They valiantly fought off the Nazi threat *single-handedly mind you!* They have brought love, peace, and democracy around the world except in the areas where the infidels refuse to accept how wrong they truly are. Join us, or live in sin and destitution forever!! Pick up your mouse ears and your Happy Meal at the door...

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Non-Americans, Bow before the might and power of the only true people who deserve to exist! The Americans!! They valiantly fought off the Nazi threat *single-handedly mind you!* They have brought love, peace, and democracy around the world except in the areas where the infidels refuse to accept how wrong they truly are. Join us, or live in sin and destitution forever!! Pick up your mouse ears and your Happy Meal at the door...

Thats the spirit Dom Pedro. And don't forget your copy of windows at the door.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Oerdin: I didn't think I could ever possibly meet somebody more pretentious and arrogant and more of an intellectual snob than myself, but you have proven me quite wrong. You far exceed any level of conceit I could possibly attain.

I have not resorted to any personal attacks nor have I milianed or slandered Brazil in any way. You contended that Brazil was the future world super power and I simply brought forth commonly availible satistics that disproves this. I'm sorry if this offends you.

As for the rest of the Anti-American rant; well, I didn't even mention the U.S. at all nor did I say anything disrespectful about Brazil. It's called common courtesy. Unfortunately, it isn't so common any more...

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Oerdin
As a historian I can tell you Brazil made no meaningful contribution to the Allied war effort. It, like most of latin America, was simply an opportunist that joined the war only after it became clear the Axis would lose. They did this so they could sieze the assists of German, Italian, & Japanese companies.

In fairness to Dom I should say that Brazil didn't make any meaningful military contributions to the Allied effort. Economicly, Brazil did help help by selling goods to the allies (such as rubber)that became scarious after the Japanese seized European colonies in east Asia. Of course they also sold these items to the Axis as well...

[Dom Pedro II]

Perhaps, Oerdin, in your own perceptions of reality you did not see yourself as resorting to ad hominem, but I'm afraid you did indeed, friend.

Furthermore, you referred to Brazil as oppurtunistically jumping on the Allied bandwagon so to speak, when in fact... if you did your research.. you would know that Brazil was in fact profiting more from Nazi Germany than not, and by committing themselves to the war effort in 1942 (when the battle of the Atlantic was still raging quite intensely) they were threatening tremendous amounts of their shipping to Axis torpedoes. I realize 25,000 troops as well as all of the air force Brazil could provide as well as using Joao Pessoa, Brazil (the eastern most point in this hemisphere) to transport very nearly all Allied bombers to the European front may not be much of a contribution, I still think it is something.

And while I admire your humble opinion on Brazil's future, I find it hard to believe that reputable periodicals such as The Economist could have such a different point of view and still be wrong.

I also took the liberty to view other posts you've made in this forum recently. You may mask your pro-American agenda in facts, sir, but it is an agenda nonetheless.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Furthermore, you referred to Brazil as oppurtunistically jumping on the Allied bandwagon so to speak, when in fact... if you did your research.. you would know that Brazil was in fact profiting more from Nazi Germany than not, and by committing themselves to the war effort in 1942

If Brazil did declare war in 1942 then it was not an opportunist, unlike most of its neighbors. As for military contributions, yes, 25k soldiers from Brazil did get deployed to Italy. I do not know how many of them ended up on the front lines but compared to the millions of men contributed by the British, Russians, Americans, and even the Free French it must have been small. The Biggest effect Brazil had on the war was as an airbase to attack German subs. That was far more important then the expeditionary force.

As for transport of allied aircraft most planes ended up in southern England so they would have gone from the U.S./Canada to Britian via greenland or Iceland, however, Brazil would have been an important way point if planes where heading to North Africa or the middle east.

And while I admire your humble opinion on Brazil's future, I find it hard to believe that reputable periodicals such as The Economist could have such a different point of view and still be wrong.

I read just about every issue of the economist and I do not recall ever seeing an article about Brazil becoming a super power. I do recall reading articles saying that if Brazil continued to deregulate and prosue market orientated reforms then it's ieconomy would began out pacing inflation again.

I also took the liberty to view other posts you've made in this forum recently. You may mask your pro-American agenda in facts, sir, but it is an agenda nonetheless.

I am sorry to disappoint you Dom but I have no hidden agenda. No secret plan. Not even a secret hand shake. I simply respond to the threads that I find interesting and which I know something about.
As for viewing my previous posts, well, I encourage anyone who cares to look it up. Of the last ten three are posted here, one was a critique on the war of 1812, one was a post that the Celts should be in the expansion pack, another suggested government types I'd like to see in the XP, the other four have been on or about CTP2 (my favorite Civ style game but I'm hoping the XP makes Civ3 my favorite). Sorry Dom but there just isn't an anti-Brazilian conspiracy here.

[Dom Pedro II]

I wasn't suggesting any anti-Brazilian conspiracy, Oerdin, I was suggesting that you (since a conspiracy would involve more than one) are subjective in your assessment as am I. Had you not made several of the comments you made in your first post here, then there would be no reason to say that. As it stands though, rather than make any assumptions from what can be inferred from your post, if the Latin American countries were really just oppurtunists, do you suggest then that the American government was somehow more noble in its reasons for entering the war?

Meanwhile, the remark about... what was it? Ah yes... "Nonsensical chest thumping nationalism & anti-americanism" was rather uncalled for and which I took as a rather personal remark. I explained earlier that I have had to deal with a great deal of American chest thumping these last few months, and I realize that I responded rather harshly to the initial attack on my country's character made by earlier posters.

Furthermore, I also explained that while I do respect the U.S. Constitution and the original ideals of the republic, I do not approve of how large the American government has become both at home and abroad, and I will continue to oppose the underhanded tactics of the CIA. I am not anti-American because I realize that every decadent empire has done bad things. I'm not standing here saying "Oh, the Soviets were swell guys! But the Americans, they're just a bunch of bastards!" Not at all. I have just grown quite tired of Americans looking at the world with such contempt. My sense of compassion for those nations who don't have the type of power the United States does makes it impossible for me to ignore such comments that has abounded since September 11th and beyond!

I concede that I mispoke when I referred to Brazil as an upcoming "super power". The day of the super power is in fast decline. What I meant to say is that Brazil's status as a nation is bringing and will bring it up to par with the Western World. The future will likely be a "multi-polar" world rather than one revolving entirely around Washington or Moscow. Where regional powers will take the place of the super power, and Brazil will no doubt emerge as one of these. Brazil's role, and Latin America's role as a whole, in the global economy today and in the future is of great importance.

But as I have grown tired of having to defend my personal character as well as the character of my country, I am retiring from the forum for this evening. Declare yourself the victor, do what you will, I don't particularly care.