Thread Tools
Old May 2, 2001, 22:42   #1
polymths
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 101
AI "cheating" is necessary and welcomed!
In a game such as Chess, it is obviously not okay that the computer "cheats" and plays by different rules. However in a game such as Civ, it is simply beyond the level of today's AI technology to expect that the computer AI can actually micromanage all the details that the human player would need to master.

The only way for the AI to match the human player is to "cheat" and I actually don't mind as long as the AI "cheats" by emulating what a human player could achieve under the same circumstances even if the AI requires shortcuts to do it (ie. "cheating")

For example, all expert players will build lots of workers and develop all tiles. But if the AI has to manage individual workers itself using "auto-worker" to develop its tiles, it will not achieve what the human player could achieve since most likely the "auto-worker" routine stinks. To get around this, simply have the AI city tiles "mature" through time at a realistic rate so that all AI tiles become developed over time. Of course it might be necessary to have some AI workers be visible so they can be killed and the tile "maturing" rate slowed down a bit but these visible AI workers would not actually be doing the tile improvement themselves!

Is tile "maturing" "cheating"? Perhaps. But if this method allow the AI to achieve what the human would achieve, then it is surely welcomed. It is a shortcut that is necessary.

The area where AI "shortcuts" (or "cheating") is sorely needed is in war. In Civ1/2, AIs simply send invididual units one at a time to get slaughtered peacemeal and are never a threat unless they are so overwhelmingly larger and more advanced. If the AI actually didn't have to do that and all attacks were "simulated" or "emulated" based on how a human opponent would do it, then the AIs would be much more formidable.

For example, instead of the AI actually manuevering individual units, a preset attack pattern with a realistic number of units would go into action at a realistic designated time. Once this designated time came, the human player would find itself under a coordinated mass attack.

These are but some examples of how the AI's work would be simplified by having lots of events "simulated".
polymths is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 01:50   #2
Zanzin
Prince
 
Zanzin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 441
Nup, sorry, don't like it. The computer should be smart enough to not have to cheat.
Zanzin is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 02:29   #3
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Can't say I like it.

There are better ways to do things as I have pointed out in other AI-related threads.
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 05:30   #4
Roman
King
 
Roman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 1,292
Computer has to cheat to provide a challenge.
Roman is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 06:33   #5
Zanzin
Prince
 
Zanzin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 441
Bah! It's still not right! If the computer cheats, I feel cheated. Guess I'll end up playing multiplayer Civ3 for a fair game.
Zanzin is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 07:58   #6
aCa
Chieftain
 
aCa's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 48
I think it's ok that the AI cheat about knowing how many units u have in cityes without spy etc, but maybe not to make landscape better. But if they can't get the AI smart enough on deity level...... he can cheat as mutch as he like as long as he gives me a real challange. I WAN'T A CHALLANGE

------------------
aCa (a Civilization addict)
aCa is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 09:36   #7
STING
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 01:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Posts: 76
In Civ1 you could clearly see that the computer was cheating, with triremes roaming the oceans without being close to the shore.. or they could build things faster.

Nah I won't like it.. Firaxis just has to come up with an intelligent AI, to make it challenging enough w/o cheating. If that's possible.

My two cents.
STING is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 10:00   #8
Gramphos
staff
Civilization III MultiplayerC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV: MultiplayerAge of Nations TeamC4BtSDG Realms BeyondCivilization IV Creators
Technical Director
 
Gramphos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chalmers, Sweden
Posts: 9,294
I hope Firaxis will be able to create a good AI, but if not they should make the computer controlled Civs to cheat.
Gramphos is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 13:33   #9
polymths
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 101
Just to clarify:

What I meant in the original post was that I see nothing wrong with the AI "cheating" in the sense that the management of the AI Civ uses shortcuts (such as tile maturation). Of course I would definitely mind if the AI has the ability to do things that no human player could do.

Let's fact it, it is extremely unrealistic to expect that the computer AI can actually maneuver each and every unit and micromanage all the details needed. I'm simply saying that the AI's decision making and management decisions are simplified and many aspects modelled or emulated to give the same effect as a human would achieve but without overloading the AI.

I'm saying the AI could "cheat" by simplifying its management so it needs to make far fewer decisions and managed fewer details than the human player would but at the same time ensure that the computer AI's outward appearance is realistic so that it is not accomplishing things that are impossible.
polymths is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 14:11   #10
Father Beast
King
 
Father Beast's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: My head stuck permanently in my civ
Posts: 1,703
Perhaps if we could teach the AI to do all the gamegreaking things we do (maybe setting priorities in a text file or something), such as ICSing (if it's still valid), massive growth through WLTxDs, and pushing everything for the hanging gardens first thing, they might be a bit more challenging. nowadays the AI seems to root around almost aimlessly, building a wonder when the mood strikes them, building lots of units becasue the military advisor asked for them, etc.

actually, that may be it! the current AI plays a lot as if they listen to the advice from their high council! what a thought! No wonder they are easy to beat!
Father Beast is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 14:20   #11
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
quote:

Originally posted by polymths on 05-03-2001 01:33 PM
Let's fact it, it is extremely unrealistic to expect that the computer AI can actually maneuver each and every unit and micromanage all the details needed. I'm simply saying that the AI's decision making and management decisions are simplified and many aspects modelled or emulated to give the same effect as a human would achieve but without overloading the AI.


You make some good and valid points, Polymths, although some civers have a real hard time understanding the built-in unavoidable limitations of artificial intelligence! Thankfully, there are some AI-workarounds however...

Below is a cleanwrite from this link; http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/001531.html and it explains the basic limitations with artificial intelligence.

In this link, the idea of AI-shortcuts for better AI-city placement methods is promoted: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/002067.html

"First of all, i DO agree what many AI-improvements can be done, in order to raise CIV-3 above CIV-2. I just think we average Civ-fanatic should be a little more aware of the built-in limitations in so called "artificial intelligence".
Artificial Intelligence has ONE major advantage over humans, and that is a huge advantage in pure numbercrunching capability. AI-Programmers can use this to setup a bunch of expressions, conditions and variables - then letting a flood wave of oncoming tasks fall through a logical boolean maze, and repeatedly getting relevant and speedy task-solutions.
By comparison humans alone compare rather pathetically (but only in terms of speed, that is).

There is a snag, however (that tips the scale heavily back in favor of the human player):

Considering today’s computer- and programming-technology, above approach only works really outstanding if the world is relatively confined (like the 8x8 square-world of chess), the variables are simple (only black and white tiles/pieces, and only 6 of the latter) and the rules are few and distinct (I don’t know how many rules chess has, but they certainly aren’t many, and there is nothing fuzzy about them either).
If any of above three factors (world size, possible variables and rules complexity) - not to say all three of them, is added to, the AI: s ability to "analyze several moves ahead" and "follow a game plan", with "intuitive" and "long reaching" tactical maneuvers, is SEVERELY limited.
To rub salt into the wound most Civ game-sessions take place - not in 100% known setup-enviroments (like in campaign games) - but, instead on random computer-generated maps, not previously analysed by the AI-programmer.

Thankfully, no one asks for an IBM Deep Blue-AI in the upcoming CIV-3 game anyway. Still, many of the upgrade-suggestions found on Civ-forums often ask for the impossible - an almost human AI, that "schemes" several moves ahead, and then moves around hordes of coordinated army-units, with tactical brilliance.
Why is it impossible (and perhaps also unnecessary)? To understand this we have to come to grips with the principal difference between human (living) intelligence and artificial (dead) intelligence:

What the human Civ-player can do (and the AI simply cannot do) is to literally OVERVIEW (experience) the game situation, and, within a blink of an eye, sort out huge parts of not-so-promising strategic/tactic solutions, and instead concentrate directly (and only) on those very few plans and ideas that actually DO seem promising.
We can describe this as a "bird eye sort out" ability, something unique the living (in our case; human) intelligence.

By comparison, the game AI (or any silicon-based intelligence for that matter) is 100% dead and non-experiencing (of course). It lives in a 2-dimensional "flat" world, figuratively speaking - by that i mean it cannot possible "overview" anything.
In practice this means that if a Civ programmer tries to create something "almost human" in terms of AI-software, he is forced to write an AI that meticulously analyzes and evaluates all the myriads of possible combinations of choose-, build-, upgrade and move-possibilities that each and every individual game-turn has to offer, no matter how irrelevant or less promising 95% of these possibilities are.
The reason for the latter, is (again) the lack of an living "bird eye-sort out" ability. Because of this, the programmers has to gather ALL possibilities BEFORE they can let the software evaluate and rank any appropriate countermeasures.

Also - he has to program it to analyze each-and-every of these combinations; at least 3-4 game-turns AHEAD! (or "deep", using chess-language). Again, remember that the AI cannot "overview" anything from above. To compensate it has to take the "flat world" approach in order to gather constantly changing game-situation data. Like in computer-chess.
This is (as we all know) not that difficult to achieve then it comes to a relatively simple and clean-cut strategy (perhaps more tactical) game like chess. But, in a MUCH more complex and option-divided game like CIV-3; the massive amounts of calculations involved to mimic any hardcore human Civ-veteran playingstyle is absolutely staggering and mind-boggling. Today’s programming-technology is simply too primitive, and our home computers are, at present state, just too slow to achieve anything near this.

Thankfully however, the AI difficulties for the upcomming Civ-3 isnt necessarily so struggling that it first seems. There are basically two reasons for this:

One is that above comparison with chess is - to a certain degree, misleading. Chess is in some ways a very different beast than Civilization. Then playing chess it can be enough to do one (1) bad tactical move in order to loose the entire game. Provided that the opponent is good enough he can exploite that single rash mistake ruthlessly and grind you into submission. In this respect chess (at least on the higher levels) is perhaps a 95% tactical game and only about 5% strategical.
Playing a turnbased computer strategy-game like Civ is a different story. If the human (or the AI-) player makes a few unadviced unit-moves - so what? Nothing that drastic will happen, that cant be repaired in later stages of the game.
One could argue that Civ is a 95% strategical game, but only about 5% tactical (give or take). Above is actually good news in terms of AI-developing. This means that the Civ AI developers can concentrate most of their efforts on tinkering with the overall strategical logistics, rather then wasting (to much) time on trying to mimic the human pathfinding and unit-moving tactics.

I have ALWAYS won the games over the AI primarily as a result of better logistics (= better resource management + more effective unit-improvement and city-improvement strategies). Strengthening the AI:s ability to handle the overall strategical LOGISTICS are the key to a better Civ AI. To summarize it in one famous semi-quote:

A successful AI civilization "marches on its belly" (Napoleon Bonaparte)".

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 03, 2001).]
Ralf is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 15:23   #12
Gramphos
staff
Civilization III MultiplayerC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV: MultiplayerAge of Nations TeamC4BtSDG Realms BeyondCivilization IV Creators
Technical Director
 
Gramphos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chalmers, Sweden
Posts: 9,294
Ralph, I know that it is impossible to create an AI that can match a human player (not including newbyes)* with today’s computers and programming techniques. The only cheats I don't want are the obvious one (as triremes never sinking). Specific cases can be handled to give the AI a strategy to follow while using triremes.
I am not against cheats as boosted production, trade and fewer penalties than a human player.


*
I do remember the first time I played Civ. I was killed by the "evil red" (did not read any help as it was before I learnt English). Back in the good old days when I played almost randomly the Barbarian AI was no match for me until I found out the ability to fortify a militia in the city I had. But those days are past and I never feel that the AI are smarter then I any more. So they have to cheat.
The only thing I stated in my last post was that I preferred fair play. But with the AIs of today fair play is, in most cases, when the AIs are cheating and you don't. As an exception can the case with the triremes be taken. Is it fair if the AI can attack you with a lot of units using triremes to sail over deep water to reach you and you have nothing to do but defend yourself until development of navigation when you may set sail towards the never ending stream of AI triremes.
Gramphos is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 15:53   #13
Mark_Everson
 
Mark_Everson's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,442
quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 05-03-2001 02:20 PM
In practice this means that if a Civ programmer tries to create something "almost human" in terms of AI-software, he is forced to write an AI that meticulously analyzes and evaluates all the myriads of possible combinations of choose-, build-, upgrade and move-possibilities that each and every individual game-turn has to offer, no matter how irrelevant or less promising 95% of these possibilities are.
The reason for the latter, is (again) the lack of an living "bird eye-sort out" ability. Because of this, the programmers has to gather ALL possibilities BEFORE they can let the software evaluate and rank any appropriate countermeasures.

Also - he has to program it to analyze each-and-every of these combinations; at least 3-4 game-turns AHEAD! (or "deep", using chess-language). Again, remember that the AI cannot "overview" anything from above. (snip)[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 03, 2001).]


Ralf, although I agree with much of your post, I think the part above is clearly wrong in several places. Most badly in the assumption that an AI can never take anything but an exhaustive search of possible actions at the lowest-level view. This just isn't right. You can read about how to get around these limitations here: http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/clasho...Model-AI.shtml
Of course what you get isn't Human, but at least it can take a big-picture view and act upon it. This makes the search space rather daunting with current technology, rather than basically impossible.

Unfortunately, some people have had trouble with reading the page above using Netscape, so I'll append the header of the discussion here, so if you're prevented from reading the whole thing you can at least get the flavor of it.

-Mark

Goals for the Clash AI are to give the player
as challenging a game as they would ever want.  To achieve this we will
have:

    [*]AI that thinks in 'Levels' about strategy,
    from very high level down to small details.  This is an
    Hierarchical approach
    [*]Levels will go from very abstract pictures
    of the world at high levels, down to pretty accurate copies of the
    world, for small things
    [*]Corrections will be made in the higher
    level AI to incorporate information from the more detailed AI levels
    below it
    [*]As much as possible, design the world
    models in the game so they are easier for the AI to handle
    [*]Use good rules-of-thumb (heuristics) as a
    firm base for AI actions
    [*]As much as possible evolve unique
    strategies Beyond the heuristics using Genetic Algorithms
    [*]Test AI strategies as much as possible
    using Monte Carlo techniques (copy the world as that AI sees it; how
    does the strategy play out in the copies?)
    [*]Threaded AI that can take advantage of any
    time not used by the world model and the interface
    [*]Allow the player to give the AIs any
    arbitrary advantages that they deem necessary
    [/list]
Mark_Everson is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 16:42   #14
polymths
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 101
I definitely agree with abstraction and "multiple levels of AI". This is key, I think. "Human emulation" is also key.

There should be certain preset routines that are used to simplify the game for the computer AIs. If tiles mature for the AIs automatically through time, then it doesn't need to be manipulating settlers around and improving tiles one by one. But as long as the maturing rate is realistic, the AI is "emulating" what the best humans would do.

If there are good, prewritten coordinated attack routines that the AIs call on, then it doesn't need to actually move around individual units to try to coordinate an attack. The AI would simply "order" an attack and the "attack routines" would look at the AIs tech, productivity, distance from the target and simply create and manage an attack. For instance, the "attack routine" might actually be only moving around a single pseudo-unit called "fleet" which represents the most powerful armada that the AI could have produced realistically in a certain given time. Then the attack routine simply needs to move around and manage a single unit called "fleet". Once the unit "fleet" arrives (or perhaps is intercepted) then the unit is unpackaged so that the player see all the individual units and the AI can manage the individual units again. In this way the computer could coordinate large attacks by creating pseudo-units internally to simplify its worldview and simplify the number of units it is actually coordinating.

Does this make any sense???
polymths is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 17:05   #15
polymths
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 101
The other thing I hope people can comment on is the idea of a statistically modelled AI.

What I mean by this is, let's study successful human players and what that human can achieve. Then the AIs Civs simply develop along a statistical model based on strong human player(s). The AI wouldn't be building wonders, these would be "awarded" to the AI through a "wonder maturing" routine that gives the AI certain wonders at certain points in time (if it hasn't already been built). The AIs wouldn't be researching techs but techs would be "awarded" based on realistic statistical models.

The real point is this: Simply what the AIs need to actually think about by having a lot of things done "automatically" for the AI without the need for the AI to make decisions.
polymths is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 18:55   #16
ancient
Prince
 
ancient's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Life Goes On
Posts: 519
i think by now we should be able to make an ai that is good enough to match a human player.. if we cant we should atleast come close with out resourting to cheating..
ancient is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 19:35   #17
Mark_Everson
 
Mark_Everson's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,442
polymths, on the "statistical model based on strong human player(s)" I have one word... Yuck.

But that said, my list for Clash AI does include:

Allow the player to give the AIs any arbitrary advantages that they deem necessary

IMO players should be able to pick and choose what they want to help AI with, not have it presented as a big package.


Mark_Everson is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 19:43   #18
polymths
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 101
quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 05-03-2001 07:35 PM
polymths, on the "statistical model based on strong human player(s)" I have one word... Yuck.



If the AI's development is realistic what does it matter whether this was achieved through statistical modeling or whether it was achieved because the AI actually had to micromanage all units and all details. Isn't the end result what's important?

For example, if the AI's land tiles improve through time through a
"tile maturation process" that is statically modelled after what a human could achieve instead of the AI actually managing each settler and improving its squares one at a time like a human must what does it matter?
polymths is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 20:49   #19
Mark_Everson
 
Mark_Everson's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 3,442
polymths:

I just don't think that you can make it appear realistic. Especially in the military area. As I understand your 'attack patterns' description above, the game would actually Need good AI to execute them! There is no such thing as a limited set of preprogrammed attack patterns that will suffice for most circumstances. And if the military AI is not sufficient, then having the AI armies mature at the same rate as a good players' would do no good! The AI will still lose horribly.

Furthermore, unless your statistical model is very good, you will lose the cause-and-effect relationship that's so critical to have the game feel right. Picture this. I've beaten the Zulus back to one city and am preparing my final attack when that one city builds two wonders, and 12 veteran knights suddenly appear to ham-handedly try and wipe out my army... I fear that kind of stuff is what you'll get. And damningly, if you don't go to those ridiculous lengths then the AI will get pasted anyway.

That said, given the complete inability of at least the previous civ programmers to achieve any semblance of intelligence in the computer opponents something's definitely needed.

Anyway, I don't think this is gonna happen, and I'm not much into purely theoretical discussions...

-Mark
Mark_Everson is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 21:15   #20
ancient
Prince
 
ancient's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Life Goes On
Posts: 519
so you realy think the computers citys should just develope themselfs? with out them even having to build workers? thats really stupid.. why not just have it programmed into them to build as many city improvements as you can as fast as they can with the real thing being built in their sity.. it would really work out the same way.. i just dont like the stupid suggestion of the computer getting free irrigation and stuff.. doesnt seem fair..
ancient is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 21:55   #21
polymths
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 101
quote:

Originally posted by ancient on 05-03-2001 09:15 PM
so you realy think the computers citys should just develope themselfs? with out them even having to build workers? thats really stupid.. why not just have it programmed into them to build as many city improvements as you can as fast as they can with the real thing being built in their sity.. it would really work out the same way.. i just dont like the stupid suggestion of the computer getting free irrigation and stuff.. doesnt seem fair..


What I mean is that the all computer city development should be on statistically autopilot.

Tiles will "age" slowly through time at a realistic rate. Some token workers will roam around to give the illusion that actual workers are working the land but in reality the tiles are simply "maturing" through time by themselves automatically. If these token workers are killed, then the maturing rate will slow until new token workers start roaming the land. But these token workers will not need to be managed at all but will just roam around aimlessly for illusion purposes.

As for city improvements and wonders, these will be awarded to the Civ at certain intervals of time based on the theoretical productive capability of the Civ, assuming that no other Civ already has that wonder.

They key is to develop a good statistical model so that the city improvements and wonders are awarded in a realistic manner.

But all city improvements and land improvements are simply happening in the background with no need for AI decision-making whatsoever.
polymths is offline  
Old May 3, 2001, 22:14   #22
polymths
Warlord
 
Local Time: 16:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 101
quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 05-03-2001 08:49 PM
polymths:

I just don't think that you can make it appear realistic. Especially in the military area. As I understand your 'attack patterns' description above, the game would actually Need good AI to execute them! There is no such thing as a limited set of preprogrammed attack patterns that will suffice for most circumstances. And if the military AI is not sufficient, then having the AI armies mature at the same rate as a good players' would do no good! The AI will still lose horribly......
-Mark


A "statistical" attack would actual not need good AI just realistic statistical analysis. Say you are at war with Zulus. They have a certain number of cities, a certain population, a certain theoretical productive capability, a certain govt, and are a certain distance from you. (Of course the Zulus are well developed because they have been developing "statistically")

Therefore, it is possible to determine that given Y years, it would theoretical be possible for the Zulus to mass N units for a mass attack. At year Y+T, the N units will arrive near your shores. But until year Y+T, no units are actually being manuevered or managed. At year Y+T, a "package" of units be assembled at that point based on the theoretical productive capability at year Y (the time when the fleet was theorectical supposed to be launched.)

polymths is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 03:04   #23
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Ralf,

You seem to have a number of misunderstandings of how AI can work.

"By comparison, the game AI (or any silicon-based intelligence for that matter) is 100% dead and non-experiencing (of course). It lives in a 2-dimensional "flat" world, figuratively speaking - by that i mean it cannot possible "overview" anything."

This is definitely not true. There are various ways to program some sort of overview into the AI, for example, using overlayed weighted fields of influence.

There are also heuristic algorithms that learn from past experiences and evolutionary algorithms that could come up with some amazing constructions.

It's not easy, but it's possible to write competent computer players without resort to cheating.
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 06:51   #24
ancient
Prince
 
ancient's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Life Goes On
Posts: 519
how bout using a learning script for the ai, it could acces itself then find out what it needs to do more of next time, that way the more you play the gaem the deadlier your opponent would be..
ancient is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 06:54   #25
ancient
Prince
 
ancient's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:57
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Life Goes On
Posts: 519
quote:

Originally posted by polymths on 05-03-2001 09:55 PM
What I mean is that the all computer city development should be on statistically autopilot.

Tiles will "age" slowly through time at a realistic rate. Some token workers will roam around to give the illusion that actual workers are working the land but in reality the tiles are simply "maturing" through time by themselves automatically. If these token workers are killed, then the maturing rate will slow until new token workers start roaming the land. But these token workers will not need to be managed at all but will just roam around aimlessly for illusion purposes.

As for city improvements and wonders, these will be awarded to the Civ at certain intervals of time based on the theoretical productive capability of the Civ, assuming that no other Civ already has that wonder.

They key is to develop a good statistical model so that the city improvements and wonders are awarded in a realistic manner.

But all city improvements and land improvements are simply happening in the background with no need for AI decision-making whatsoever.
if the computers tiles ages how will they be able to build roads in between citys? and anyways if the cpu gets to have free tile improvements theyll have more time to build buildings and unit giving them an advantage

ancient is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 09:00   #26
Gramphos
staff
Civilization III MultiplayerC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV: MultiplayerAge of Nations TeamC4BtSDG Realms BeyondCivilization IV Creators
Technical Director
 
Gramphos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chalmers, Sweden
Posts: 9,294
quote:

Originally posted by ancient on 05-04-2001 06:51 AM
how bout using a learning script for the ai, it could acces itself then find out what it needs to do more of next time, that way the more you play the gaem the deadlier your opponent would be..


What if you use different strategies every time you play. That would realy make the AI more stupid as it tries to get better according to your last stategy all the time.

I say don't try to make the AI lern your gameplay that would just confuse it (or delay the game another five years ).


[This message has been edited by vgriph (edited May 04, 2001).]
Gramphos is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 09:17   #27
Russian King
Chieftain
 
Russian King's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: In Hell
Posts: 78
In civ2: this was a GIGANTIC problem!!!!!

"The comp should be smart enough"-good point, but not the case, in civ 2 the comp built much more than you could build in the ancient age whether You cheat or not . Thats not acceptable. The comp should be given NO head start and shouldnt cheat at all: it just doesnt make it better or even more challenging.
YES it doesnt make it more challenging, it just makes it look dumb and WEAK!
and the fact that its so powerful-what would you think of Bill Gates if his mom made the whole company work and he was siting wasting the money?
Sorry, Bill, no offence, your a good guy.
Russian King is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 11:22   #28
Cyberbugs
Settler
 
Local Time: 00:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 26
I have posted this in a previous, quite small thread, so I may as well repeat it.

What I would like to see, is that the advisors "cheat".
By that I mean that they sometimes provide you with useful inside information. For example the military advisor may say: "Many nuclear missiles are being produced by different civilizations. I suggest you build some anti-nuclear defence."
This way the advisors don't just provide you with things that you are already aware of, like "your naval fleet is too small".
However, the inside information shouldn't be *too* revealing, of course, but it would very much enhance the usefulness of the advisors.
Cyberbugs is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 15:15   #29
Gramphos
staff
Civilization III MultiplayerC4WDG Team ApolytonCivilization IV: MultiplayerAge of Nations TeamC4BtSDG Realms BeyondCivilization IV Creators
Technical Director
 
Gramphos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chalmers, Sweden
Posts: 9,294
quote:

Originally posted by Cyberbugs on 05-04-2001 11:22 AM
What I would like to see, is that the advisors "cheat".
By that I mean that they sometimes provide you with useful inside information. For example the military advisor may say: "Many nuclear missiles are being produced by different civilizations. I suggest you build some anti-nuclear defence."
This way the advisors don't just provide you with things that you are already aware of, like "your naval fleet is too small".
However, the inside information shouldn't be *too* revealing, of course, but it would very much enhance the usefulness of the advisors.


This isn't actually what is discussed in this topic, but you make a point. This may be a new effect to Espionage.
Gramphos is offline  
Old May 4, 2001, 15:45   #30
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:57
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
Mark Everson quote:
Most badly in the assumption that an AI can never take anything but an exhaustive search of possible actions at the lowest-level view. This just isn't right.

You perhaps misunderstood my intention with that post.

My intention was/is NOT to imply that a better Civ-AI only can be created if one takes the most exhaustive search of possible actions, at the lowest possible level, each and every turn (and since that is practically impossible in a random-map mega-optional game like Civ; any hopes of a better AI is utterly futile. So lets all forget about it).

Above was NOT what I meant. I only stated that IF one stubbornly daydreams about a "humanoid passed-the-Turing-test" kind of AI that learns/re-values/re-adjusts its choices and strategies dynamically and automatically each and every turn - including how to move around AI-units with 100% human-player efficiency - THEN one can only be sure to achieve such lofty (and unrealistic) goal by executing that very exhaustive search of possible choices, at ALL levels at every turn - and several turns deep. Just like a high-ranking AI is forced to do in chess, by the way.

HOWEVER - as I mentioned further down in my previous post: One is that above comparison with chess is - to a certain degree, misleading. Chess is in some ways a very different beast than Civilization...
Well, it certainly is! Civ is MUCH more "wrong-move forgiving" then chess. Also, one dont necessarily have to analyse several moves ahead in civ, in the same abstract forehead-vrinkling ways as one is often forced to in chess. In this sence, playing Civ is MUCH more simple and straigthforward.

Also, as you mentioned yourself - there are many AI shortcuts and methods that one can apply. I have read through your "AI-list", and it all make sense. Cant argue against anything you suggest. I will only emphasize some of my own ideas:
[*] Most importantly is of course that Firaxis from the very start, tries to design and implement ideas in as "AI-friendly" ways as possible. Many added new ideas works for example like "double-edged swords", in the sense that they act equally as much on the human player, as on the AI-civs. But, because the human player always is prone to be the more active and expansionistic one - the burden often lies much more on the HP and then one the AI-civs. This is something the game-designer can (and should) exploit.
[*] The use of player-editable AI-build and AI-prioritize template-lists. I have often wanted to be able to "spoon-feed" the AI-civs through the text tweak-files, thus saving them from their own stupid selves as much as reasonably possible. For example by: Specify editable templates of what they should upgrade/build; units, CI:s and Wonders. Exactly which units & CI:s - how many/and in which order. Specify an indevidual forced-upon number of AI-cities each AI-civ MUST prioritize. Specify in which order AI-tech advances and what government-forms each AI-Civs should follow/prioritize. Specify how & how much AI-city areas should be cultivated. Specify how AI-cities should exploit excess wealth. Specify prefered Gold/science allocation, and so on, and so on...

Above AI-build and AI-prioritize templates means that instead of forcing the AI to “evaluate” and “choose” in which order this or that tech-advance, city-improvement and even single unit should be build – the whole AI evaluating process is BYPASSED as much as possible.
Instead the AI follows blindly a pre-made setups (templates) until something triggers it to temporarily take over direct command. You can compare it with a blind man being given exact blind-read instructions how to move around inside an unknown building. He can follow this pre-made template meticulously and rather effectively (with minimal of independent analyzing). If he never the less bump into something – he temporally put his blind-read map in his pocket, and starts to feel ahead and analyze the situation. Soon feeling confident, he can take the map up again…

Above, has to a certain degree already implemented in most strategy-building-games of course. But I want it to be done much more thoroughly and player-accessibly/tweakably then ever before in Civ-3.
[*]Ah! My lovechild! My favourite Civ-AI shortcut idea: The need for pre-game calculated AI-city placements, with all potential AI-city locations already invisibly layed out (like yet unlit red diodes that punctures a electric standalone touristmaps on big railwaystations), in conjunction with the map-generation. On manually created world-maps, these potential/invisible AI-city locations can be manually pin-pointed all over the map.

On which potential/invisible AI-city location (or unlit red diode) each AI-civ chooses to build its first capitol city, may very well be totally random as long as the starting-locations are reasonably far away from each other. Also, in which direction each AI-civ chooses to expand may also be random, or then they start to get contact with each other; according to varying non-foreseeable in-game factors.
It is however, then Civ-3 scenario-creators starts to make use of potential AI-city placements on their own maps, that this idea really showes off its advantages. Suddenly the Civ-playing scenario-creator gets a whole new time-dimension under his fingertips. Not only can he now exactly pin-point ideal potential AI-city locations (and distances between them): But he can also determing how each AI-Civ should expand into map-sections thats not yet uncovered in the beginning of the scenario - if they want to have that control, of course.

Read more in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/002067.html (never mind the title, read on).
Ralf is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:57.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team