BOOM! Terract in Rishon Le Zion - Page 2

Jaakko · May 7, 2002, 18:18

Please...

Are you really going to tell me you see no difference between Hitler and the current Pal situation?
And I didn't bring up Hitler, so yer barking up the wrong tree anyhow.

Jon Miller · May 7, 2002, 18:24

OK

substitute in Japanese but on smaller scale

truism still holds

Jon Miller

Jaakko · May 7, 2002, 18:30

Japanese aren't any good for a comparison either...

Come on, the Pals don't even have a real country for crying out loud, let alone an army.

Sirotnikov · May 7, 2002, 18:44

they have a very organized mob.

obviously nothing will hold without a peace agreement

but a peace agreement won't hold unless terror is defeated - militarily

KrazyHorse · May 7, 2002, 18:45

You've had 30 years to do so and have failed.

Sirotnikov · May 7, 2002, 18:54

we succeeded actually

once we let up the military pressure, terror has risen

KrazyHorse · May 7, 2002, 18:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
they have a very organized mob.

obviously nothing will hold without a peace agreement

but a peace agreement won't hold unless terror is defeated - militarily

Quote:

we succeeded actually

once we let up the military pressure, terror has risen

So why didn't you make a peace deal?

HisMajestyBOB · May 7, 2002, 19:06

Maybe because Arafat didn't want peace? It takes two to make peace ya know.

Jaakko · May 7, 2002, 19:10

Quote:

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
Maybe because Arafat didn't want peace? It takes two to make peace ya know.

Which brings us nicely back to the point about military action not bringing peace, made by both KrazyHorse and me...

Shi Huangdi · May 7, 2002, 19:12

You really ought to just seperate off from the Occupied territories and build a big wall seperating you from your neighbors......

KrazyHorse · May 7, 2002, 19:13

So what's Siro's solution?

To me it appears that the Israelis are quite happy to keep the conflict going as long as it affords them the opportunity to continue to populate the occupied territories.

Israel hasn't stopped building settlements since they started. How is this conducive to a peace deal?

Natan · May 7, 2002, 19:32

Quote:

To me it appears that the Israelis are quite happy to keep the conflict going as long as it affords them the opportunity to continue to populate the occupied territories.

Whereas the Palestinians have suicide bomber summer camps because they hate war so much?

If you take polls, Israelis repeatedly say that they'd be quite willing to give up settlements for peace.

Quote:

Israel hasn't stopped building settlements since they started. How is this conducive to a peace deal?

It's considered a form of non-violent resistance to Palestinian terrorism.
edit: Let's clarify that use of the passive and make clear that they are considered a non-violent response to terrorism by their builders and supporters.

Drake Tungsten · May 7, 2002, 20:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
You really ought to just seperate off from the Occupied territories and build a big wall seperating you from your neighbors......

Walls don't stop rockets and artillery. Do you really expect the Israelis to allow a hostile force to lob shells on Tel Aviv?

KrazyHorse · May 7, 2002, 20:10

I never said the palestinians hate war. They don't want to make peace either.

Settlements are a thinly-veiled attempt to grab the whole pie for Israel. Are you telling me that when peace is made the settlements will be pulled out?

Jon Miller · May 7, 2002, 20:20

so some are suggesting eliminating the palestinian people (those who say that oyu cannot eliminate ideas)

Jon miller

Natan · May 7, 2002, 20:24

Quote:

Settlements are a thinly-veiled attempt to grab the whole pie for Israel.

That's the intent of some of their inhabitants, but what's misleading about this is that it treats the West Bank as an indivisible unit - either the Palestinians get it 100% Israeli-free or they are expelled to Jordan. What is mostly likely going to happen if a negotiated settlement is reached is that Israel will get somewhere from 3-10% of the West Bank, and the Palestinians parts of Israel.

Quote:

Are you telling me that when peace is made the settlements will be pulled out?

Yeah, most of them. Gush Etzion and Maaleh Adumim will remain, along with parts of the Ariel block and the rest (those of the Binyamin region, Ofra, Tekoa, those of Gaza, etc.) will be uprooted unless they were set up in areas Israel needs anyway for security reasons.

Grrr · May 7, 2002, 20:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
we succeeded actually

once we let up the military pressure, terror has risen

Nice Propoganda. This will be the excuse to kill more innocent Palestinians, will it not.

Drake Tungsten · May 7, 2002, 20:31

The Pals are giving the Israelis an "excuse" every time they blow up a building full of innocent Israelis. Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you...

KrazyHorse · May 7, 2002, 20:35

So some of the settlements aren't coming out?

Basically, it looks like Israel's taking more and more as a maneuvering move for peace deal (they have more so they'll get to keep more), but since time is on Israel's side there's no urge to give up enough to make peace.

Why should Israel get to keep any of them?

I regard building settlements as deliberate provocation. The Palestinians have the horrible feeling that once a settlement gets put down it's going to be there forever, and from what I've seen, they're right.

Grrr · May 7, 2002, 20:35

In other words, the Israelis are giving the Pal's an excuse each time they drive a tank through their territory.

Jaakko · May 7, 2002, 20:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Miller
so some are suggesting eliminating the palestinian people (those who say that oyu cannot eliminate ideas)

This is targeted at who exactly?

KrazyHorse · May 7, 2002, 20:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The Pals are giving the Israelis an "excuse" every time they blow up a building full of innocent Israelis. Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you...

The Israelis are giving the Pals an "excuse" every time they put down another settlement, something they've not stopped doing in 25 years.

Drake Tungsten · May 7, 2002, 20:38

I don't see how blowing up a billiards hall defends you against Israeli tanks. Going into the West Bank and destroying bomb factories, however, is a defensive measure. All the talk about suicide bombers "defending" Palestine is bullshit; they're murdering civilians, plain and simple. But you don't have a problem with that, do you...

KrazyHorse · May 7, 2002, 20:40

If you're talking to me, then I'm going to start being rude...

Natan · May 7, 2002, 20:41

I have always found the idea that guerillas/terrorists/freedom fighters can't be defeated by military means to be baffling. History is a graveyard of failed resistance movements:
- Poland lost its independence for more than a century, and despite numerous revolts, only regained it when Austria, Germany and Russia were defeated by outside powers. Even now, it's borders are much smaller than they used to be.
- The PLO was defeated in Jordan in Black September and has not reared its ugly head in that Kingdom since that time three decades ago.
- Krajina Serbs trouble Croatia no more thanks to a helpful military offensive with a dash of ethnic cleansing on the side.
- The various Lebanese factions were forced to end their war by Syrian and Israeli intervention, the Maronites and Palestinians have been particularly crushed and no longer present any signifigant resistance.
etc. etc. One could ask whether, in a given case, the required kind and level of force (and the right military strategy) necessary to defeat a particular terrorist group is available. One could ask whether the political leadership will be willing to deploy it. But to make a blanket statement that military force does not defeat terrorism strikes me as a bit naive.

Drake Tungsten · May 7, 2002, 20:43

I'm talking to Grrr. You should have your hands full with Natan, anyway.

Natan · May 7, 2002, 20:46

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
So some of the settlements aren't coming out?

Basically, it looks like Israel's taking more and more as a maneuvering move for peace deal (they have more so they'll get to keep more), but since time is on Israel's side there's no urge to give up enough to make peace.

Time isn't on Israel's side though. For one, Israelis are more likely to and leave the country when the economy turns sour and buying groceries is a combat mission than the Palestinians are. Then there's all the international pressure, which makes Israeli voters and politicians uncomfortable. And of course, everyone in Israel knows that the Palestinians are going to outnumber them in a few years.

Quote:

Why should Israel get to keep any of them?

Because their residents aren't going to experience anything even resembling civil and human rights in a Palestinian state maybe? Or because they're in areas vital to Israel's security?

Quote:

I regard building settlements as deliberate provocation. The Palestinians have the horrible feeling that once a settlement gets put down it's going to be there forever, and from what I've seen, they're right.

Israel evacuated Yamit, didn't it?

Jaakko · May 7, 2002, 20:49

Natan, my comments at least have always been made with the assumption that Israel is not willing to commit the atrocities required to end Pal resistance permanently. Take it as a sign of respect for the country.

CyberGnu · May 7, 2002, 20:50

natan, that is because you are missing a word in your sentence. Granted, the word is usually omitted, as it is implied, but nevertheless very important. The word is 'popular'. froce cannot defeat a popular resistance movement.

And of course, popular refers to sentiment among the civilian population at large.

Grrr · May 7, 2002, 20:51

Blowing up a Billiard hall isn't going to stop Israeli tanks, but it shows that no matter what Israel does, it is going to have casualties. It shows that Israel will never win.