Thread Tools
Old May 7, 2002, 22:05   #1
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
Trading Absurdity
Sublimely ridiculous:

I am totally dominant, and Greece is getting blow to smithereens by Egypt (all of 2 cities left).

Somehow, they got Rocketry before me (imagine that).

I asked what Alexander would want, and he said not possible.

For the hell of it, I offered:
Iron
Saltpeter
Coal
Oil
Rubber
Wines
Furs
Dyes
Incense

He still said no!!
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old May 7, 2002, 22:09   #2
Tuberski
 
Tuberski's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ACK!! PPHHHHTTBBBTTTT!!!
Posts: 7,022
That kind of stuff happens to me a LOT, and it always seems like it's the Japanese that do it to me.
__________________
"I think Bigfoot is blurry, that's the problem. It's not the photographer's fault. Bigfoot is blurry, and that's extra scary to me. There's a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside. Look out, he's fuzzy, let's get out of here."
Tuberski is offline  
Old May 7, 2002, 22:10   #3
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
I think their might now be a general "pissed off" quotient for each AI civ.
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old May 7, 2002, 22:16   #4
Tuberski
 
Tuberski's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ACK!! PPHHHHTTBBBTTTT!!!
Posts: 7,022
I think if they are furious, it is really hard to do trades, sometimes you just have to "grease the wheels" to relax them.
__________________
"I think Bigfoot is blurry, that's the problem. It's not the photographer's fault. Bigfoot is blurry, and that's extra scary to me. There's a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside. Look out, he's fuzzy, let's get out of here."
Tuberski is offline  
Old May 7, 2002, 22:21   #5
Coracle
Prince
 
Coracle's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 915
That kind of crap happens because the braindead AI holds stupid grudges for millennia over even minor stuff, and sometimes things you never did!

If it doesn't like you it is so spiteful it would refuse fabulous deals that could really help it.

Duh.
Coracle is offline  
Old May 7, 2002, 22:25   #6
Inverse Icarus
Emperor
 
Inverse Icarus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuberski
I think if they are furious, it is really hard to do trades, sometimes you just have to "grease the wheels" to relax them.
i ONCE tried to appease an AI. then they used the saltpeter i gave them to build cavalry and attack.

sure, my infantry put them in their place, but it's the principle of the thing. i never appease anymore. you're mad at me? f*ck you you're dead.
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
Inverse Icarus is offline  
Old May 7, 2002, 22:29   #7
Tuberski
 
Tuberski's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ACK!! PPHHHHTTBBBTTTT!!!
Posts: 7,022
About all I'll ever do to appease them, is luxuries or money. I only give resources if they are on another continent and losing a war.
__________________
"I think Bigfoot is blurry, that's the problem. It's not the photographer's fault. Bigfoot is blurry, and that's extra scary to me. There's a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside. Look out, he's fuzzy, let's get out of here."
Tuberski is offline  
Old May 7, 2002, 22:41   #8
Cyclotron
Never Ending StoriesThe Courts of Candle'Bre
King
 
Cyclotron's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cyclo-who?
Posts: 2,995
Keep in mind that those trade deals you offered it would close as soon as war started, while you would keep the tech forever. Only an idiot would give a tech to a bigger, more powerful opponent that it was at odds with for some goods that could easily be taken away next turn if you decide to invade. The offer was obviously bad, no human player would have taken it and it just goes to show that the AI has some merit in the fact that it didn't take the deal.
__________________
Lime roots and treachery!
"Eventually you're left with a bunch of unmemorable posters like Cyclotron, pretending that they actually know anything about who they're debating pointless crap with." - Drake Tungsten
Cyclotron is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 00:42   #9
cracker
Warlord
 
cracker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 115
I would have to say that the AI trading calculations are still some of the weakest examples of the coding in the entire game.

Example in point: I am located on a continent shaped like a figure eight and control one end (or one lobe of the figure eight). The AI controls the other end of the figure eight. The AI civ has one town founded on the tip of my end of the figure eight and I have two towns that I just captured from a third civ and these towns are on the AIs end of the figure eight. The AI is polite to me and I offer to trade the two cities on his end for the one city on my end. He is in AWE of my culture and yet refuses the trade. I added 200 gold lump sum to the deal and still got refused.

The next turn the lone city that the AI had on my end of the continent flipped to me and I was stuck with two corrupt towns on his end of the world. So basically he got nothing.

In other cases, I have tried to trade an AI for a remote town that was about to be attacked by SoD of 20 or 30 attackers from a third or fourth CIV only to have the AI tell me a deal was not possible.

Sometimes I have to go on the warpath and kill them off just to prevent the remnants of their civ from falling into the wrong hands.
cracker is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 01:24   #10
Random Passerby
Warlord
 
Local Time: 00:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 187
Due to exploits that cropped up in the game, the Firaxis team made it so that the AI will only even consider giving cities in exchange for peace treaties. While I do feel that it's a good thing to close the loopholes they did (sell a city, re-take it, sell it again was one of the general tricks they were trying to stop, I think), I really wish they hadn't done so at the expense of legitimate city trades. It's clear that the city-valuation code is still there, because if you're trying to get an AI civ to cede some territory for a peace deal you'll often see different cities being valued different amounts (resources, distance from capital, and size seem to be major factors), and if you give a city as a gift it will still register as a gift of a certain value.
Random Passerby is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 03:01   #11
Primus40
Settler
 
Primus40's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: 3rd stone from the Sun
Posts: 28
Thanks Random Passerby... interesting info. I, too, have suffered from city trade refusal when offering mutually beneficial exchange with other civs. Case in point: risking all out civ war (thanks to MPP's) to take three cities from the French (who just took them 2 turns ago from the Germans). I then offered these three cities to the Romans - which were located one turn away from the Roman coast - in exchange for one city that they had captured from the Aztecs on my cultural borders - five turns away from their empire! No dice and no amount of money, tech or resource thrown in could sweeten the deal. Now, I know why. Next time I will attack the sorry Roman empire and if the peace treaty doesn't do the trick - So what! I'll just take the damn thing from them.
__________________
You have not converted a man merely because you have silenced him.
Primus40 is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 03:18   #12
The_Aussie_Lurker
BtS Tri-League
King
 
Local Time: 00:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Posts: 1,451
It would seem to me that the simple fix to this problem, which would close that loophole whilst still allowing legitimate trade, would be either:

a) have the A.I give proper consideration to a city-city trade 1st time, but have it almost ALWAYS reject a second trade of that same city (except for a peace deal).

b) once you have traded a city, have a lag of about 10 turns before you can re-trade that same city.

Possibly a combination of the 2 might be even better!!

Anyway, just my $0.02c worth.

The_Aussie_Lurker.
The_Aussie_Lurker is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 03:19   #13
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
I think the city trading was one of the interesting aspects of the game. Then they completely killed it to stop an exploit. I'd have prefered if they had left it for the players capable of self control.

Close one loophole, another opens up. Some have discovered how to periodically shake down the AI through renegotiation of peace.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 03:23   #14
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
A better way to fix it would be that the AI should never agree to any trade involving a city with any power who it had been in a war with within the last 100 or 200 turns. Except for peace terms that is.

The refusal to trade territory with peaceful builders, or with allies is not necessarily a step in the right direction.

Another thing. The AI should refuse to renegotiate peace after once. I can see once. Repeatedly? If you want us, come and get us!
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 03:48   #15
player1
Emperor
 
player1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 3,218
As far as I know.

Iron lacking AI pays a lot of money for it.

But I've never seen AI bothered with lack of Oil or Rubber.

These prices should be SCALED with cicrumstances.

Like:
-in war == I realy need that Oil
-Having 30% luxury == I realty need that Luxury resource
player1 is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 04:11   #16
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 01:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Re: Trading Absurdity
Quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
For the hell of it, I offered:
Iron
Saltpeter
Coal
Oil
Rubber
Wines
Furs
Dyes
Incense

He still said no!!
The value of luxuries, converted to gold (which is the base of all calculations), increases with population. If Alex has only 2 cities left, he has less citizens to supply and your ressources are worth much less than if you offer the same to a civ with 20 cities. That's how the trade system works. You can use it to your benefit. Offer your scarce luxuries and ressources to the civs with more citizens and renegotiate the deals after 20 turns if you feel, that his/her # of citizens increased.
Harovan is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 04:12   #17
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Theseus :
Maybe you have a bad reputation, and are known to break treaties (it happened to me for a whole game after an ancient sneak attack). Then I suppose the AI doesn't give any trust to you when you trade on a per-turn basis... I think it fears you cancel the treaty one or two turns after.
OR : the AI now doesn't understand it's possible to exchange lump for per-turn.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 04:28   #18
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
I have to agree Spiffor. In my current game an AI is willing to trade me Replaceable Parts for Spices, Wines and 25 gpt.

I have not broken any agreements. I have not declared war on any AI while I had forces inside it's territory. I am Mister Clean.

But thay all still show they are furious with me. It's the first game I've ever seen that. They ask for ROP and MPP. I say OK to ROP. They still hate me??? Oh well. It hasn't effected the diplomacy that I have noticed.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 08:34   #19
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
I agree with cyclotron7 (and others voicing the same opinion): refusing the offer in this case is the "right play" by the AI.

If this were multiplayer, and I had two cities left, I would never give away an advanced tech (Rocketry being the most important tech in the Modern age...) for anything short of a batallion ready to dig me out of the hole I'm in.

The fact that these "extreme trades" seem ludicrous is that the human player expects the AI to give them something every time an offer is made. The fact that the AI is hard-coded (actually, I don't know if this is a fact or not) to reject any trade under certain circumstances is a commendable game feature.

The fact that that AI is sometimes unwilling to give in is not "stupid", it is simply inconvenient for the human player.


Dominae
Dominae is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 09:19   #20
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 01:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
I must disagree with cyclotron7. The AI isn't that smart. I just had a game, where I saw an American sneak attack force approach, at the end of the ancient age. It was too late to block them, and I knew that it would be useless to ask him to leave. So I contacted Abe and bought Monarchy for 25 gold per turn. He attacked the next turn anyway, and I had the tech practically for free.
Harovan is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 10:04   #21
Bella Hella
Prince
 
Bella Hella's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: philly suburbs
Posts: 302
i can almost always get techs if i just offer gold. that's the only sure-fire way i've experienced of getting techs. you just have to have a lot of dough. *shrug*
__________________
drones to the left of me, spartans to the right - here i am, stuck in the middle with yang
Bella Hella is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 12:07   #22
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
I'm not trying to defend the AI in general, just the AI's play in Theseus' example. There's simply no reason for a 2-city civ to want 8 luxuries and a couple of outdated strategic resources ("No, we don't need any Iron; our Infantry wouldn't know what to do with it anyway..."). This is especially true if the human player is gaining a permanent asset (Rocketry), while the AI will probably be wiped out the next turn anyway.

Edit: It seems I've bent Theseus' example to support my argument. However, I think my point is still valid.

Dominae
Dominae is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 12:31   #23
Yolky
Prince
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 578
I'm suprised nobody said this.
If youi can't reach rocketry yet, you wouldn't be able to get it. You have to have the prerequistes first to enamble to trade it.

Davor
Yolky is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 12:42   #24
ahenobarb
Prince
 
ahenobarb's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 437
Infantile "Diplomacy"
Not to bother you with the gory details of a game, I had. here are the highlights:

Huge map, 9 civs

Never had even a battle with another civ, only barbarians.

traded tech freely

shared resources

built up inferior civs with generous gifts

All civs in the game are Polite to me

going for cultural victory

"compared to these guys we have a stong military"

it's 1864

The Romans, who share a border, I had been sheparding through through the game: We want a MPP, or die!

Sure, whatever. I give it to them.

next turn: Romans DECLARE WAR!!!

next turn: 15 of 35-40 Romans cities fall to me, Rome won't negotiate peace (Heck I don't even want their cities)

Next turn: 7 cities, refuse to acknowledge envoy

next tuen: 7 cities, refuse to acknowledge envoy

next turn: all remaining cities but one, refuse to ackowledge envoy (I'm a democracy so I'm starting to get war wariness)

next turn: Romans are dead, solves my war wariness problem


Q: On what scale of logic does it make any sense for the Romans to attack me. I have been their patron through the entire game. I thought someone else had instigated them, but everyone is polite and as I said I never even fought anybody. I had 2x the cities as the romans and 175+ cavalry, the romans had nothing comparable.

What's up with that?
ahenobarb is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 12:54   #25
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
In "realistic" terms, you could explain the AI's behaviour as "wanting a share of the pie". Although it goes against most sound strategy, it's sometimes difficult not to target the most successful/wealthy civ around before the weaker ones.

In the Industrial era, in order to eventually ensure a nice lead in the space race, I'll often attack the strongest AI civ (and try to bring as many other civs into the battle as possible, via MPPs) just to force them to focus on military rather than science and economy. Usually I'll end up with an extra couple of luxuries, some nice peace negotation spoils, and a few nice new cities. These wouldn't be present if I simply beat up on the poor Zulus.

It's pretty clear I'll do this whether the strongest AI has been nice to me over the ages or not; strategically it's a good decision, so I stab them in the back (yeah, I've got no honour...it wins me games).

The real problem in your example is that the Romans failed in their grab for power (which, incidentally, does happen in real life). Also, I must concur that there is a problem with the AI not knowing when to stop it's warmongering ways; as the Romans were getting beaten pretty handily, they should have realised peace was the better option at some point.


Dominae
Dominae is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 13:10   #26
ahenobarb
Prince
 
ahenobarb's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 437
I guess they had the best chance going for me, since i was closest but sheesh!

I think Civ III is programmed so that wars have to go on for 5 turns or something before they can end. In which case, Rome might have wanted to take that into consideration.

I really wanted to see if I could go a whole game without fighting anybody (you outta get extra points on your score for that), but I guess it goes to show there's no prize among nations for being the nicest.
ahenobarb is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 13:13   #27
Kc7mxo
King
 
Kc7mxo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,038
I was playing a game the other day as the Persians, 7 civs, standard map, two continents.

i'd conquered the zulu empire so i had about twice the territory of anyone else. my culture was shooting up, and was twice the size of my neareast opposition.

near the end of the game i'd siezed most of the strategic and luxury resources, but the Germans and the English had their little out of hte way continent nicely contained, so i tried to trade.

Mr Bismarck wanted 3 luxuries, and more than a thousand gold pieces for ONE of his damn luxuries.

so I ICMB'd his butt after launching my spaceship.

How do you like THAT trade Otto?
Kc7mxo is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 13:15   #28
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 01:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Didn't you notice yet, that the AI is willing to pay the more for your luxuries, the more citizens it has. That's the reason, why you often can negotiate better prices for your luxury sales every 20 turns, because the AI civ has grown. This has nothing to do with "it can afford more", a civ with less citizens can be rich too. The value of resources/luxuries grows with the number of citizens you can supply/make happy.

Now back to Alex: Theseus' Japan is much bigger than Alexanders Greece. For Greece, resources and luxuries aren't worth much converted to gold, because he has not much citizens. Theseus has to pay Alexander's prices, and, because Alex doesn't evaluate luxuries very high due to less citizens, Theseus failed. If Greece was the same size like Theseus, I'm sure 2 luxuries or 1 resource would be enough.

For the AI, prices depend on the number of citizens. I noticed this many times in my games.
Harovan is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 13:21   #29
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
ahenobarb, you can go the whole game without fighting anybody. I've done it (especially easy in an OCC game...I think they dislike you if you're militarily superior to them). However, there is not sure-fire way to play an entirely peaceful game in Civ3, which is a good thing.

Didn't you know? AI civs that declare war on you out of nowhere is part of the fun! Seriously now, peaceful games should be a rarity because they're boring; the AI is designed around this fact.


Dominae
Dominae is offline  
Old May 8, 2002, 13:23   #30
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:18
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
What Sir Ralph says makes a lot of sense. Perhaps the best explanation of what was going on in Theseus' game.


Dominae
Dominae is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:18.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team