Technologies

[Jon Shafer]

What technologies do you think should have been included in Civ III that weren't? Or maybe just split into a different category from a previously included one, i.e. alchemy from chemistry. I have a lot of ideas for what should have been included (or what was even possible, even if it did swamp the game with too many techs), but I want to see what you guys think.

[Primus40]

Interesting idea - alchemy. Would it allow you to transmute iron into gold or aluminum into uranium? Seems like that would make it very easy to blow off trading for strategic resources. Maybe it could take a large number of turns to do so and you could not stack workers on it - one worker limit. Maybe a new unit: Alchemist!

Sorry, don't have any other ideas for techs at the moment but will give it some thought and get back to you.

[Ribannah]

Alchemy is a valid advance, linking Iron Working and Medicine to Gunpowder and Metallurgy (and Coal Mining, in my tree). It has little to do with the King Midas syndrome (still, it would be nice to change your fourth source of horses into the saltpeter that you don't have and nobody is willing to trade for ).
But there are other techs I attach a higher priority to, such as
Canal Building, The Plough, The Mill, Enlightenment, Human Rights, Logistics, Telecommunication.

[nato]

Crop Rotation!

I would have included advances like that and like "Strip Mining". These advances would increase food and shield output of worked city squares ... no irrigation or mining!

[Jon Shafer]

I'm trying to design a better technology system for a new game, and I'm trying to get as many ideas as I can.

I felt that alchemy was an important step between simple geology - the study of rocks and minerals, and the advances of chemistry that brought about something practical. Alchemy directly led to further studies that eventually turned into the branch of chemistry today. Maybe you couldn't actually turn stuff into gold (after all, no one ever did... as far as I know ), but it could bring about other effects... what yet, I haven't thought about it.

Some new ones I thought were important (to get you started):
Tools, trade, diplomacy, ship building (screw map-making), alchemy, conscription (a result of nationalism, but not the same), explosive munitions, museums (it needs a better name, but I can't come up with one...), mass-production farming, radar, etc. Just stuff like that.

[nato]

Well in the interest of throwing out ideas (sorry if these are already done):

Division of Labor
Caste System
Atheism
Tectonic Plates
Slash and Burn
Horse Collar
Stirrup
Irrigation Society
Motion Pictures
Geopolitics
Tourism
Relativity
Bureaucracy
Fractional Reserve Banking
Motte and Baily
Cement
Glass
Trial by Jury
Domestication of Animals
Hydrogen Fuel Cells
Standard Weights and Measures
Standardized Parts
Double Entry Accounting
Operations Research
Skyscrapers
Home Appliances
Canned Food
Urban Planning

Oh I could go on... nothing really special, but if only one or two are winners, its worth it.

Any special area you're interested in, like economics, politics, social, military, etc.?

[Jon Shafer]

Thanks, I should be able to use those.

The things I probably need most are technologies from the ancient era.. I have to admit that's the most sketchy period of time for me, especially in advances in warfare... I know tons about warfare from the middle ages on, but my knowledge is fairly limited before that (other than the Roman Army).

Some of those things you mentioned are a bit too deep to include (though I do want you to be able to research a lot). However, some of the things I liked were Motte and Bailey (castle building), skyscrapers, slash and burn, caste system, etc. Things that you think had a very deep effect on society... for example, skyscrapers made it possible for cities to grow upwards, instead of outwards, making companies more efficient, allowing them to produce more goods, and make more money, etc.

[Harovan]

Not to forget the invention of beer. Causes +2 happy male citizens and +1 unhappy female citizen. With democracy, women start to drink too and the effect changes to +2 happy citizens of any gender.

[dunk]

Actually, beer and other alcoholic beverages were important in civilizations. The alcohol kills bacteria and other pathogens in the water and made it safer to drink. And since there are cities which can be size 7 with all male or all female citizens, the effects would be haphazard.

I like a few of those ideas up there in the laundry list.

Ones I like with some ideas on what they could do...

Tourism... make an improvement called tourist bureau which produces culture.

Cement... gives roads 4 movement as opposed to 3.

Glass... I like the idea, but can't think of a use in the game.

Urban Planning... this should allow mass transits, increase the "born content" number by 1 or 2, increase the defensive bonus of the two bigger size cities (>6 and >12).

Fuel Cells... reduces population pollution. Maybe another "Hoover Dam" type wonder.

Ones I don't like...

Horse Collar & Stirrup... Too AOE. These come with Horseback Riding. We could put Scale Armor and Chainmail in there too.

What's Motte & Baily? Are these people?

Standardized Parts is already in the game as Replaceable Parts.

Caste System is already in the game as Feudalism.

Standard Weights and Measures can be considered included with Currency. After all, that's what currency is. $1 = X pounds of gold, silver, or whatever. Well, it used to be.

The others I'm not sure what they would do.

[Jon Shafer]

I'm actually trying to aim things more towards my game than Civ III (shhh, don't tell anyone), so the aspects of "male VS female" citizens, and happy faces, and culture are beyond (or aside from) what I'm aiming for, but either way, I can adapt the suggestions.

Originally posted by dunk999
Actually, beer and other alcoholic beverages were important in civilizations. The alcohol kills bacteria and other pathogens in the water and made it safer to drink. And since there are cities which can be size 7 with all male or all female citizens, the effects would be haphazard.

I'll consider it.

Tourism... make an improvement called tourist bureau which produces culture.

Another thing that this would bring about would be more income. Smaller countries would be able to generate revenue with the majority based upon tourism, as holds true today. Another thing this could lead to is a mixing of nationalities (one factor in my game), which could lead to more interesting situations.

Cement... gives roads 4 movement as opposed to 3.

I like it. Good for my game, useless for Civ III. Railroads give unlimited movement? Hmmm, okay.

Glass... I like the idea, but can't think of a use in the game.

Glass could be required in order to build modern machines, skyscrapers, etc. The only problem is that glass was invented millenia ago (just watched a show on it on the History Channel yesterday afternoon ), so maybe it could be "Automated Glass Production" or something like that instead.

Urban Planning... this should allow mass transits, increase the "born content" number by 1 or 2, increase the defensive bonus of the two bigger size cities (>6 and >12).

Hmmmm, I like this idea. I could adapt it to allow... uhh, better efficiency and whatnot in larger cities. However, each city would have to be "upgraded" with this ability (in order to actually make things more organized... just developing a plan doesn't actually make anything better ). Definite possibilities here.

Fuel Cells... reduces population pollution. Maybe another "Hoover Dam" type wonder.

Haven't really thought about it yet (trying to work on history, not sci fi yet ).

Ones I don't like...

Horse Collar & Stirrup... Too AOE. These come with Horseback Riding. We could put Scale Armor and Chainmail in there too.

Yeah, this stuff has already been dealt with nicely by Horseback Riding.

What's Motte & Baily? Are these people?

Well, they might have been.
Actually it's a small wooden castle used in the early middle ages for feudal lords and whatnot. It could provide the benefits of a fortress, along with producing extra taxation or something in the city/region it's located in.

Standardized Parts is already in the game as Replaceable Parts.

Another thing that goes along with this is "Mechanization". Currently I have both in my list of techs to use, but I'm thinking I want to use one or the other. I think I like the sound of "Mechanization" better.

Caste System is already in the game as Feudalism.

Caste system implies more of a seperation of society, while feudalism is more of a way of life (distinctly in the middle ages, as well). Perhaps a better name for it could be derived... I can't think of one though.

Standard Weights and Measures can be considered included with Currency. After all, that's what currency is. $1 = X pounds of gold, silver, or whatever. Well, it used to be.

Hmmm, not sure how I could apply this. It had an impact on history, I suppose, but I'm really not sure how I could impliment it.

[Brizey]

In addition to the others mentioned, which were great:

Basic Machines (other than wheel: lever, wedge, etc. A precursor to masonry and construction)

Mass Electrification

Calculus/Applied Mathematics

Numerical Analysis

Plastics (Synthetic comes too late in Civ3)

Surgery

Antibiotics

Digital Control

Germ Theory

Cloning

Nutrition

Refrigeration

Fossil Fuels

Meteorology

Mechanized Agriculture

Student Loans/GI Bill

Television

Some of these obviously overlap each other and the existing advances, but if you want a big pool to pick from...

[Primus40]

Wow, catch a few hours sleep (what's that?) and things develop. Trip/Ribannah ~ just for the record; wasn't trying to imply that alchemey wasn't a valid idea. In fact I really did think it was interesting, but it was late (early?) and the King Midas thing is what popped into my head without much thought. Your concepts of it's use were enlightening, thanks. My secind intention was to see if maybe we could get this thread alive and kicking since it had seemed to be laying there with no response. Glad to say it worked.

There are some great things here and after a little thought I have a few for the list:

Machining - from a military perspective, truer gun barrels with longer range allow riflemen/infantry to be more effective (more attack). Or, could be fit into the Industrialization/Replaceable Parts idea.

Marksmenship - possibly allowing a sniper type unit. One that can strike with deadly accuracy from one or two squares away. Maybe the Leathal Bombard ability could allow this to occur with a ground unit. But with a rifle crack sound FX.

Special Operations - maybe allowing an army like "unit" that has both Hidden Nationality and Stealth.

Public Education - a more modern idea to simple education. Sure, higher education has been around for a long time but even now it is somewhat elitist (hopefully not starting an off-topic rash of posts - not the point of this or the thread). I am talking about the simple fact of the general public being able to read and write contributing to increased awareness, mass communication... and greater populace in higher education facilities. Gotta be a research bonus there somewhere.

Microbiology - some of these could just be transitioning techs (like this one). Leading to Cure for Cancer and Longevity. But it could also open the door for militaristic things like...

Biological Warfare - allowing a Nuke-type device that effects game, population, food sources.

Distillation - not sure where to take this one but the beer post earlier made it stick in my mind. dunk999 provided some background on the relevance of alcohol to ancient civs. All true, but it was a far different concoction then what we consider to be alcoholic beverage. Distillation gave us the liquors of today. But that process has also been migrated to other areas... haven't thought this one through but am throwing it out anyhow.

Craftsmanship - another last minute thought. Nice word, any suggestions on practical application?

Telecommunications was another good one suggested, maybe advanced communications. In real life, advances in communication (from printing press on up) contributed to discovery rates in science and technology... and it is a snowball effect with exponetial returns over time. This could be worked in there somewhere I am sure.

I know you mentioned that ancient military tech advances were of interest to you. I used to know quite a bit about that stuff years ago, but I am afraid that different directions in life have relegated that information to the dark recesses of what is left of my mind. C'mon, I know they are a BUNCH of historians out there that could contribute in this area. Give us your thoughts!

[Deornwulf]

Check out Imperialism II for a host of great ideas if you want to focus the technologies into a tighter range of developments. Along military lines, every age had its own strategic developments. Stirrups made cavalry possible, others include the Napoleonic square, Trench warfare, Air Tactics, Naval Tactics, and guerilla warfare to just name a few.

Some advanced technologies that would be interesting include

Nanotechnology
Cold Fusion
Arcologies
Bionics
Cybernetics
Fiber Optics
Ion Engines
Gravimetrics and/or Artificial Gravity

If you look through the skill lists of your favorite RPG's you could probably find even more ideas. Shadowrun, Star Trek, Star Wars, and Star Frontiers would be good for advanced techs while Rolemaster and Hackmaster would be good for ancient ones.

[notyoueither]

While studying Newton I noted with some mirth that he was particularly interested in Alchemy right about the time he was made governor of the Bank of England. Coincidentally, rapid expansion of the British Empire begins at about the same time.

Que music. Ne ne ne ne ne ne ne ne

[nato]

I have one very minor ancient warfare thing.

Before the stirrup (which was super important, AOE or not) charging cavalry developed a method of letting go of the spear right before impact, so as not to be knocked off the horse. This helped make Alexander's Companion cavalry so tough.

However, if you're going to lump in stirrup with basic horseback riding, fine distinctions aren't of interest to you. At this level, the current techs are pretty sufficient. The only thing really important that is missing is horse archers.

[Jon Shafer]

Being that I started the thread, I suppose I ought to try and respond to each suggestion as well. Okay, here goes.

Originally posted by Brizey
Basic Machines (other than wheel: lever, wedge, etc. A precursor to masonry and construction)

Good one.

Mass Electrification

This could probably be better lumped into something else. Industrialization, perhaps.

Calculus/Applied Mathematics
Numerical Analysis

What might you suggest the benefits of these be?

Plastics (Synthetic comes too late in Civ3)

Workable as a requirement for some modern things.

Surgery

When would you consider "surgery" to have been implimented? It is known that even as far back as the Egyptians, brain surgery was actually carried out.

Antibiotics

Good. A way to increase health and prevent disease (very important for armies... in many cases, 3/4 of casualties suffered were due to sickness and disease, not battle wounds).

Digital Control

Eh?

Germ Theory

Or maybe the discovery of the microscope.

Cloning

Good one. Got it on my list already.

Nutrition

Benefits? (I don't know how beneficial you could consider nutrition to people's lives... even now most people don't really care all that much )

Refrigeration

Wasn't that included? Oh wait, I think I'm thinking of Civ II.

Fossil Fuels

Hmmm, maybe not "fossil fuels" specifically, but some other technology to impliment them for industrialization.

Meteorology

Benefits?

Mechanized Agriculture

I have "Massed Production Farming" already, which should cover this area.

Student Loans/GI Bill

Benefits?

Television

I defineatly think some sort of "mass media" tech should be included.

Some of these obviously overlap each other and the existing advances, but if you want a big pool to pick from...

Thanks for helping.
Any input is very helpful, since I'm really not so great in thinking up techs for whatever reason. I've used quite a few of these.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Primus40
Wow, catch a few hours sleep (what's that?) and things develop. Trip/Ribannah ~ just for the record; wasn't trying to imply that alchemey wasn't a valid idea. In fact I really did think it was interesting, but it was late (early?) and the King Midas thing is what popped into my head without much thought. Your concepts of it's use were enlightening, thanks. My secind intention was to see if maybe we could get this thread alive and kicking since it had seemed to be laying there with no response. Glad to say it worked.

I figured there ought to be at least a few people with some ideas to help me out. I knew you weren't attacking alchemy, I suppose I didn't clarify the actual benefits of it. Mainly, all it did was help lead to modern chemistry.

Machining - from a military perspective, truer gun barrels with longer range allow riflemen/infantry to be more effective (more attack). Or, could be fit into the Industrialization/Replaceable Parts idea.

I've lumped all that stuff into a category called "Mechanization." That should cover plenty, while also providing many benefits of the era.

Marksmenship - possibly allowing a sniper type unit. One that can strike with deadly accuracy from one or two squares away. Maybe the Leathal Bombard ability could allow this to occur with a ground unit. But with a rifle crack sound FX.

Well, in the game I don't have individual units (too tedious to employ), mainly due to the fact that it's not very realistic. I put soldiers into army units, where they can fight together, etc. Soooo I'm not sure how this could be implimented effectively, maybe you'll have some ideas.

Special Operations - maybe allowing an army like "unit" that has both Hidden Nationality and Stealth.

Again, I'm mainly concerned with how techs work within my own game, but I suppose this could be implimented to provide for elite units, etc.

Public Education - a more modern idea to simple education. Sure, higher education has been around for a long time but even now it is somewhat elitist (hopefully not starting an off-topic rash of posts - not the point of this or the thread). I am talking about the simple fact of the general public being able to read and write contributing to increased awareness, mass communication... and greater populace in higher education facilities. Gotta be a research bonus there somewhere.

Hehe, even I realized this when adding to the list. Great idea, already got it. I entered it in in between the "Organized Labor" and "Sanitation" techs (around late 1800s).

Microbiology - some of these could just be transitioning techs (like this one). Leading to Cure for Cancer and Longevity. But it could also open the door for militaristic things like...

Any particular benefits specifically from the tech (besides leading to other techs)? I'm not to fond of great wonders, so they're not in the game.

Biological Warfare - allowing a Nuke-type device that effects game, population, food sources.

Got it.

Distillation - not sure where to take this one but the beer post earlier made it stick in my mind. dunk999 provided some background on the relevance of alcohol to ancient civs. All true, but it was a far different concoction then what we consider to be alcoholic beverage. Distillation gave us the liquors of today. But that process has also been migrated to other areas... haven't thought this one through but am throwing it out anyhow.

I don't think beer has as much effect on things today as they used to... ale used to be a way to pacify a rowdy crowd, or make people happy, etc. Not exactly the same benefits as today.

Craftsmanship - another last minute thought. Nice word, any suggestions on practical application?

This could be developed around the time of Renaissance, which allows... uh... quicker production of buildings, etc. perhaps. Any other ideas?

Telecommunications was another good one suggested, maybe advanced communications. In real life, advances in communication (from printing press on up) contributed to discovery rates in science and technology... and it is a snowball effect with exponetial returns over time. This could be worked in there somewhere I am sure.

Included through Mass Media (~1950s).

I know you mentioned that ancient military tech advances were of interest to you. I used to know quite a bit about that stuff years ago, but I am afraid that different directions in life have relegated that information to the dark recesses of what is left of my mind. C'mon, I know they are a BUNCH of historians out there that could contribute in this area. Give us your thoughts!

No problem lots of other useful ideas, thanks.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Deornwulf
Check out Imperialism II for a host of great ideas if you want to focus the technologies into a tighter range of developments. Along military lines, every age had its own strategic developments. Stirrups made cavalry possible, others include the Napoleonic square, Trench warfare, Air Tactics, Naval Tactics, and guerilla warfare to just name a few.

Hehe, already played Imp. I and II. The Napoleonic Era is my newest favorite topic in history, so now I'm pretty well-versed in history from 1800 on, but thanks.

Some advanced technologies that would be interesting include

Nanotechnology
Cold Fusion
Arcologies
Bionics
Cybernetics
Fiber Optics
Ion Engines
Gravimetrics and/or Artificial Gravity

If you look through the skill lists of your favorite RPG's you could probably find even more ideas. Shadowrun, Star Trek, Star Wars, and Star Frontiers would be good for advanced techs while Rolemaster and Hackmaster would be good for ancient ones.

Phew, I'm sure I could come up with plenty of things for the future... that'll probably take a lot of thinking to come up with howe everything interacts (at least what's already happened is easy to model ).

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by notyoueither
While studying Newton I noted with some mirth that he was particularly interested in Alchemy right about the time he was made governor of the Bank of England. Coincidentally, rapid expansion of the British Empire begins at about the same time.

Hmmmmm, maybe they'll be a secret "cheat option" once you've discovered alchemy.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by nato
I have one very minor ancient warfare thing.

Before the stirrup (which was super important, AOE or not) charging cavalry developed a method of letting go of the spear right before impact, so as not to be knocked off the horse. This helped make Alexander's Companion cavalry so tough.

However, if you're going to lump in stirrup with basic horseback riding, fine distinctions aren't of interest to you. At this level, the current techs are pretty sufficient. The only thing really important that is missing is horse archers.

Distinctions that fine are a bit beyond the scope of a civ game. Maybe I'm not looking as much for refinement as I am diversification. A lot was excluded from the Civ series, and I'm going to try to improve upon it. And yes, there will be horse-mounted archers too.

Another interesting topic that could be addressed is what units should have been included but weren't. And no, I'm not talking "4th company of the 6th regiment of the Green Berets", I'm talking things like "Machine Gunners", or, for example "Horse-Mounted Archers". Basically new types that couldn't be easily lumped into another category (like Heavy Weapons Infantry, and Regular Infantry, or Swordsmen and Macemen ).

[Grrr]

The rate you're going we'll have a huge tech tree .

[Jon Shafer]

Actually, for what I'm using all this for, it's not quite a tree. Of course, some things have to lead into others (for example, you have to discover basic mathematics in order to build the space shuttle, and whatnot), but there are actually different areas of research you can devote spending to (math, chemistry, philosophy, etc.), and once you reach a certain level of mastry in each area, then you get a new technology. For example, when math is at level 28, chemistry at level 35, then you acquire the tech of "Explosive Munitions." Stuff like that.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Trip
The things I probably need most are technologies from the ancient era.

How ancient?

Foraging
Hunting
Fire
Stonecutting
Herding
Paganism
Dye
The Needle

Or ...

Agriculture
Woodcraft
Mining
Roads
Herbal Lore
Waterproofing
Weaponry
Storytelling

Or ...

The Canoe
Archery
Irrigation
The Oven
The Calendar

Or ...

The Council
Mythology
Canal Building
Bridge Building

[Brizey]

Student Loans/GI Bill: a sort of post public education thing that creates a large professional class

Meteorology: A very important thing for modern regional scope conflict. Could allow better coordination between AF, gound based and naval units. Could also effect farming if you call it Climatology.

Digital Control is a sort of post computer or applied computer science thing. It is just as fundamental to stealth fighters as the composite materials.

I have always thought that Calculus or Applied Math should replace Physics. I prefer the more applied concepts for game purposes.

Fossil Fuels: Coal. Maybe steam power is better. I just threw this one out there.

[Deornwulf]

If you want tech research to be challenging, think about making the player put efforts into lines of research and making the discoveries random based on the amount of research focused on a particular line. Blind research may seem too random to some but it does make for more interesting strategy and gameplay variety.

[Miznia]

Applied Sexism (permits a new culture improvement)
Objectivism (requires Communism, permits "Atlas Shrugged" wonder)
Applied Nationalism (prereq Nationalism)

[dunk]

Mass Media...

There are 2 suc techs in Civ III. Printing Press (think newspapers) and Radio. Both are mass media, which means communication directed and delivered to a very large audience. Perhaps television would be a valid additon, perhaps not.

[Sir Kruschev]

I like the Sniper idea . with the following guide lines : 1) lethal at 2 squares. 2)not stackable.only 1 sniper per square. 3) 0 defense

also like Bridge Building . this could become available with the Construction Advance . but need special Engineer to build bridges , not a worker . an Engineer cant perform normal worker chores , and would cost twice as much .

how about this one................Under Ground Tunneling ! would become available sometime in the Modern Era , and require ROP if building to another Nation . also require Engineers to build . or maybe as a Small Wonder .

Nuclear Blast / Fall out Shelter as a city improvement . would reduce pop kill to 30% in the event of a strike . made obsolete by SDI.

[Primus40]

Originally posted by Trip
...once you reach a certain level of mastry in each area, then you get a new technology. For example, when math is at level 28, chemistry at level 35, then you acquire the tech of "Explosive Munitions." Stuff like that.

Now that seems like an interesting method of research to a micromanager like myself. I like it... keep us filled in on your progress with this project.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Ribannah
How ancient?

Foraging
Hunting
Fire
Stonecutting
Herding
Paganism
Dye
The Needle

Or ...

Agriculture
Woodcraft
Mining
Roads
Herbal Lore
Waterproofing
Weaponry
Storytelling

Okay, maybe not that ancient.

Or ...

The Canoe
Archery
Irrigation
The Oven
The Calendar

*Snickers* A GE oven?
But this would be a good place to start. Calendar & seasons would be a good one... helps with farming production, etc.

Or ...

The Council
Mythology
Canal Building
Bridge Building