All Hail the People's Revolution in Nepal! - Page 4

chequita guevara · May 9, 2002, 22:08

Goingonit, Armed revolutionaries need to eat and to hide. If they do not have the support of the population, they will quickly be destroyed. It's a very old story.

Lonestar, the number of Russian sponsored terrorists and death squads (and they did exist) were nothing more than a drop in the bucket compared to Western back ones. Even the Islamic terrorists are ametuers compared to the US. Taking one example, The US and South African backed terrorist group, UNITA in Angola, is responsible for the deaths of almost a million people, maybe more. Toss in RENAMO, the Contras, the Chinats, etc., etc., etc., and US backed terrorists and death squads have a death toll equalling Hitlers death camps.

Ramo · May 9, 2002, 22:23

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The point, as you can see on the AI site and on Human Rights Watch, and as I mentioned in a previous post, is that there is no evidence of any such activity by the government prior to the Maoist insurgency. So this cannot be sluffed off as a case of "everybody is equally bad". The responsibility, as I said before, lies squarely on the backs of the Maoists.

Well, seeing as how the Maoist rebels popped some 5 years after the absolutist Panchayat system collapsed, don't you think you're being a little rash? By judging 5 out of the 12 years of the government's existence, you think you can say that rebellion is the sole cause for state repression?

Even if the state was somewhat more tolerant of peaceful dissent prior to the Maoist insurgency, we're stilling dealing with a feudal regime, that needs major changes. The Maoists' solution is certainly one I disagree with, but make no mistake that state incompetence is the reason that the people considered other options in the first place.

Furthermore, attributing exclusive blame in this situation is absurd. Were the Bolsheviks innocent of their atrocities because of the actions of White armies?

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Taxes are voluntarily, though not necessarily happily, agreed to. Extortion, in this case, proceeds from the barrel of a gun. This has direct bearing on the alleged democratic nature of society in rebel-held areas.

Taxes are voluntary? Really? So if I tell the IRS to **** off, I won't be hauled off to prison?

As far as I can tell, the only distinction between extortion and taxation is that an authority that "taxes" has much more power than one that "extorts."

DinoDoc · May 9, 2002, 22:27

Ramo, aren't you at a public college?

KrazyHorse · May 9, 2002, 22:29

Dino, the funds the Maoists extort can be called contributions to the general defense fund...

Goingonit · May 9, 2002, 22:30

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Goingonit, Armed revolutionaries need to eat and to hide. If they do not have the support of the population, they will quickly be destroyed. It's a very old story.

If someone points a gun at you and says, "give me food and a place to hide", what do you do?

KrazyHorse · May 9, 2002, 22:31

Say "Go away dad, I'm busy".

Ramo · May 9, 2002, 22:37

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Ramo, aren't you at a public college?

Yes...

DinoDoc · May 9, 2002, 22:39

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Originally posted by Ramo
Yes...

Then by your own statements, aren't you helping to perpetuate an immoral system by reaping the benefits of it?

Imran Siddiqui · May 9, 2002, 22:42

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Ramo, aren't you at a public college?

Ramo · May 9, 2002, 22:49

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Then by your own statements, aren't you helping to perpetuate an immoral system by reaping the benefits of it?

First off, I don't see how reaping the benefits of a system helps to perpetuate the system, exactly.

Secondly, I advocate a system of minimal coercion. I do advocate taxation to a limited degree. Taxation is coercion, but in moderation, sure beats the alternatives.

DinoDoc · May 9, 2002, 23:02

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Originally posted by Ramo
First off, I don't see how reaping the benefits of a system helps to perpetuate the system, exactly.

It's the same as a person who knowingly buys stolen goods at a bargain price perpetuates theft.

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Secondly, I advocate a system of minimal coercion.

In your opinion we do not yet have such a system. Therefore by attending a public university and reciving State and Federal aid, are you not spending the equivilant of "blood money?"

Ramo · May 9, 2002, 23:15

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It's the same as a person who knowingly buys stolen goods at a bargain price perpetuates theft.

Well, he increases the demand for stolen goods... I'm not increasing the demand for coercion.

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In your opinion we do not yet have such a system. Therefore by attending a public university and reciving State and Federal aid, are you not spending the equivilant of "blood money?"

Seems like an awfully abstract discussion to me.

You use subsidiezed federal loans and supported the latest federal tax cut, right? Were you using "blood money" before the tax cut? Do you support no more tax cuts, or are you still using "blood money?"

DinoDoc · May 9, 2002, 23:18

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Originally posted by Ramo
You use subsidiezed federal loans and supported the latest federal tax cut, right?

I'm not the one that considers taxation the equivilant to criminal extortion, am I?

Ramo · May 9, 2002, 23:27

Granted.

Anyways, my moral objection to buying stolen goods is that I'd be encouraging people to steal more.

This "blood money" business sounds like nonsense to me.

Imran Siddiqui · May 9, 2002, 23:32

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In your opinion we do not yet have such a system. Therefore by attending a public university and reciving State and Federal aid, are you not spending the equivilant of "blood money?"

He should be going to a private university and pay for it himself, so that he doesn't have participate in such an extortionate act as public schooling

.

Ramo · May 9, 2002, 23:40

*Shrug*

I have moral objections to a corporation too, but I'm willing to work in one.

I'm not one for abstract high-minded ideological masturbation when it comes to getting by.

chequita guevara · May 9, 2002, 23:41

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Originally posted by Goingonit
If someone points a gun at you and says, "give me food and a place to hide", what do you do?

Well, in theory that seems like a way for an armed group to survive in the face of popular hostility. In reality it doesn't work that way. If you're hiding, then you don't have an effective way of keeping people from ratting you out. The only way you can be secure is if the locals are on your side. That's how successful guerillas operate. Unsuccessful guerilla groups do what you suggest, and they get destroyed when those they prey upon help the government find and destroy them (unless those groups are getting outside help).

Imran Siddiqui · May 10, 2002, 00:21

All Hail the Counter-Revolution in Nepal!!

chequita guevara · May 10, 2002, 00:24

Quiet, you!

Imran Siddiqui · May 10, 2002, 00:29

Help, Help, I'm being repressed!

chequita guevara · May 10, 2002, 00:49

And so Imran went back to dreaming his dreamy dream, unware of what dangers where about, for in the next room lurked the Insideous International Chinese Communist Conspiracy.

We'll use this set of teeth to represent countries. Communism is like a cavity, and when one goes, they all go. This is known as the dominao theory. That's why nine out of ten countries chose American brand foreign policy. Or new Crealm toothpaste!

Imran Siddiqui · May 10, 2002, 00:56

Ah Crealm toothpaste... it'll stop those commies dead in their tracks!

Only good commie is a dead commie

.

Adam Smith · May 10, 2002, 10:15

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
And so Imran went back to dreaming his dreamy dream, unware of what dangers where about, for in the next room lurked the Insideous International Chinese Communist Conspiracy.

We'll use this set of teeth to represent countries. Communism is like a cavity, and when one goes, they all go. This is known as the dominao theory. That's why nine out of ten countries chose American brand foreign policy. Or new Crealm toothpaste!

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Originally posted by Adam Smith
A BBC correspondent, interveiwing one of the Maoist rebel leaders reported that:

He said the current ceasefire between Nepali Government forces and the rebels was not an obstacle to the Maoists' intention to take over the entire country.

Indeed he said this would just be a precursor to spreading the Maoist movement throughout the world.

When I accused Comrade Sizal of being slightly over-ambitious, he countered that this was a movement on the move.

Arrian · May 10, 2002, 10:34

Though the domino theory got out of hand, it did have a basis in fact, as well-presented by Adam Smith above. After all, just about any communist movement I've heard of has stated worldwide revolution ("workers of the world unite!") as a goal.

One of my professors, in explaining the Cold War domino mentality in the US gov't, put it thus: you see, if you let Vietnam fall, then it will be Indonesia (wild eyes now), and then Australia (practically frothing at the mouth) and then... and then... OREGON!

So ya gotta stop those reds! By any means necessary! Ah, there's the rub. And so you slide down the slope to undeclared wars, CIA coups, financial and military aid to bloodthirsty despots, etc.

-Arrian

chequita guevara · May 10, 2002, 11:39

The Domino Theory is rather valid, but not exactly the way it was formulated. Successful revolutions in one country often inpsire people in other countries (not necessarily nieghboring ones) to take up their own struggle for freedom. So, when Vietnam successfully tossed out the Americans, there were revolutions in Cambodia, Laos, Portugal, Mozabique, Angola, Ethiopia, etc. which in turn sponsored successful revolutions in Grenada, Nicaragua, and Iran, which in turn, spawned more revolutions. (That last wave of revolutions met up with the heavy hand of Ronald Reagan.) Then there were the Velvet Revolutions.

Freedom is a virus. If one group of people catch it, it tends to spread.

Arrian · May 10, 2002, 11:42

"Freedom is a virus"

As if communism was freedom! Che, you kill me.

-Arrian

chequita guevara · May 10, 2002, 11:50

Freedom from want is a freedom. Freedom from homelessness, from unemployment, from not being able to get medical attention.

Sure, the so-called Communist countries weren't real good at delivering on the freedoms we in the West take for granted, but they were under a state of seige, which tends to cause states to act paranoid and repressive.

Anyway, it doesn't matter so much what the states became. It matters what people thought they were creating when they overthrew their former masters. If the people of Nicaragua can overthrown Somoza, then the people of El Salvador can overthrow the junta, and so on.

lord of the mark · May 10, 2002, 12:34

[QUOTE] Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Nuts, server ate my response.

SnowFire, Karl Marx said that communism was the extension of democracy into every sphere of life.

Quoting Marx on what Communism represents is anachronistic. While Marx and Engels did use the term "communist", by the time of the second(?) international the term socialist or social democrat was preferred by Marxists. Communism was revived as a term by the Leninists, and since 1917 is used in English to refer to the ideology of Lenin and his followers.

It would be correct to say that socialism is the extension of democracy into every sphere of life. It is consistent with that to acknowledge that Lenin's "democratic centralism" involves the extension of dictatorship into every sphere of life.

And if you think that Soviet oppression began under Stalin, you have a lot of learning to do. I suggest starting with the Gulag Archipelago.

LOTM

lord of the mark · May 10, 2002, 12:39

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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Domino Theory is rather valid, but not exactly the way it was formulated. Successful revolutions in one country often inpsire people in other countries (not necessarily nieghboring ones) to take up their own struggle for freedom. So, when Vietnam successfully tossed out the Americans, there were revolutions in Cambodia, Laos, Portugal, Mozabique, Angola, Ethiopia, etc. which in turn sponsored successful revolutions in Grenada, Nicaragua, and Iran, which in turn, spawned more revolutions. (That last wave of revolutions met up with the heavy hand of Ronald Reagan.) Then there were the Velvet Revolutions.

Freedom is a virus. If one group of people catch it, it tends to spread.

Actually Cambodia fell before South VietNam. Laos had massive NVA intervention. Portugals revolution came precisely because the govt was mired in Angola and Mozambique. Portugal eventually avoided the Communist danger and made it to freedom. Something Angola and Mozambique are still in the process of doing. As is Ethiopia, once it overthrew the dictatorship that came to power in the '70's. Nicaragua has become a free democratic state, in which the Sandinistas have to compete, and usually lose , AFAIK.

LOTM

chequita guevara · May 10, 2002, 12:41

That may be partially true, but the 2nd International also abandoned Marxism at the start of WWI when the various parties voted for war credits.

LotM, I suggest you aren't in a position to teach me much about the USSR, especially on the basis of Solzhenitsyn.