Voluntary "Homework Assignment!"

[Velociryx]

'k....we've got a couple of threads going on different segments of the game....we're talking about society models, and combat engines, and magic systems....but one thing we're not talking about just yet is what demonstrably works!

To that end, I have a little assignment for anybody who's interested....c'mon...it'll be fun, I promise! Best homework assignment you've ever gotten!

What I would like you to do is....play computer games.

Specifically, play turn based, 4x style computer games....old or new, any genre (and if you need some old games, head to: http://www.the-underdogs.org for a quick fix).

Yep...play computer games, and report your findings back here...let's talk about games that have come before and how they executed various elements....we might learn a thing or two....no...strike that, we'll definately learn a thing or two, even if it is to learn what NOT to do!

Case in point: On another thread, I got a recommendation to play EFS (Empire of the Fading Suns - Available on the underdogs site). So...I duly downloaded it and am playing my first game (beginner level, all defaults, yada yada yada). And...it's surprisingly good!

I'll withold my full opinion till I have more time to study the game, but so far, I can say with authority that I like the way they handle in-game diplomacy, and think we could take some lessons from them in that regard, but the combat model is WRETCHED! When two stacks meet in battle, you get a popup box and a generic "explosion" sound happens, then you see unit health bars decreasing....when a health bar goes to zero, the unit is replaced by a skull and crossbones icon...and that's it. There is NO active involvement 'cept for right up front, before the "combat resolution" begins, where you can pick an overall strategy (normal attack, overrun attack, and...something else). Once you pick that though, it's totally out of your hands. They might as well not even HAVE the actual battle popup, cos you can't do anything with it.

So....I'll finish out the critique of the systems we can learn from in EFS, and if anybody else wants to take this "homework assignment" I'd be happy to have help with the research!

-=Vel=-

[xRamsesx]

/me raises hand eagerly and bolts off to the underdog

Vel, I only wish my teachers had given me homeworks like this one!

[Velociryx]

Yeah well....see, I'm thinking I'd be getting all kinds of extra cool points if I was a teacher...LOL!

I'm just thinking....we have, in the Underdog site, a simply *amazing* resource....a library of games (some successful, some not-so-successful, some downright brilliant and far ahead of their time), and there may be lessons we can learn from that, to apply them in our own game. That, coupled with any other game(s) people who venture this way might have on their HDs should give us PLENTY of examples to pick and choose from....different ways of handling combat, diplomacy, magic....anything we can imagine....

My hope is that we'll hit upon a few really innovative ideas this way, be able to combine them with our own ideas to create something new and different, and use THAT as the basis for our implementation....

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

Would love to, but CB is eating enough time out of revision as it is!

Maybe in a month or two...

[TCO]

Chowlett are you an undergrad or grad student. What general field is your thesis in and what is title?

[Cyclotron]

I refuse to use the underdogs' site out of principle, so I can't help you there. Of course, that's a different discussion, so I won't go on about that here. Anyway, I'll review the strategy games I have and see what I can think of.

[Chowlett]

Undergrad. My general field would be "Mathematics", and my thesis title would be - erm, how about "Attempting to get a BA in mathematics at a British university, so theses don't come in until after I graduate and try to get a Masters or a PhD."

[TCO]

Well...what the heck are you revising?

And have you subspecialized at all? What appeals to you?

[Chowlett]

Erm, my course work from the last year. I have exams in 4 weeks.

And I'm planning on specialising in pure maths, number theory in particular. I don't really get to do that until next or even 4th year.

[Velociryx]

Was doing a bit of research re: the topic of this thread, and in particular, my own exploration of EFS....found out that the third attack option that I couldn't think of earlier was "Feint" - also found out that it doesn't work....it's exactly the same as making a "normal" attack....so there are essentially only two options to choose from, accessible from a popup w/buttons that overlays the "battle screen" - once you make your selection of attack type, the battle resolves automatically with no further input from you.

One thing we COULD get from this is a roughed out first version for the look and feel of our combat display, but in truth, I'd be disappointed if it stayed that way.

What I'm seeing is that, for the early iterations, we could have a zoom to battle view, with a popup overlaying it, broken out segmentally (by the three firing tiers), radio buttons allowing for the selection of standard or precision strikes for archers, standard or charge attacks for Cav (modified by the possible presence of pike, which would disallow those choices for either troop type).

Then, the current round would resolve...between rounds, you'd get another popup/button that would appear with essentially three things on it

An "option to withdraw" button, a "continue with the same orders" or a "change orders" button (which would bring the popup back up.

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Originally posted by Chowlett
Erm, my course work from the last year. I have exams in 4 weeks.

And I'm planning on specialising in pure maths, number theory in particular. I don't really get to do that until next or even 4th year.

Oh...you're reviewoing than, not revising. No? Or is this a Brit English thing?

[Chowlett]

Hmm, well I never. The OED has

revise:v...2(Brit.) reread work done previously to improve one's knowledge, typically for an examination.

Y'know, I'd never have thought it was at all regionalised!

[Velociryx]

After reading the description, I am of the opinion that we could learn quite a lot from this game:

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=2884

I plan on downloading it when I get home tonight, but tonight is "date night" for me....the evening that I head to the retirement home to spend some some time with my grandmother, so I likely will not get to play much with it...but if anybody else is looking for a good "candidate game" this one might just be the ticket....

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

And for the benefit of Cyclo - it's freeware...

[Cyclotron]

And, for your benefit, a quote from the Underdogs' site:

We believe that providing games that have been abandoned by their publishers, while technically illegal, is a valuable service to the gaming community...

Hence my categorical objection.

[Chowlett]

A valid one too. I was just ensuring that your objection was categorical, rather than just specific to those games that are properly illegal.

[Cyclotron]

Of course. I understand that freeware is... well, free, but I have some reservations about procuring it from a source that I know to be violating laws, even if that is not the case for that particular product. However, I have no problem with others doing this... It's not my place to change your own morality. I hope Vel finds some useful information in his search of their database.

I don't want to threadjack this into a piracy/copyright debate thread, though, so I'll refrain from further discussion.

[Velociryx]

Just a note on the topic, but not long ago, I contacted the "Silicon Knights" inquiring after the manual to the classic game "Fantasy Empires" published by them. I had bought the game ages ago, still had my discs, but the manual (copy protection) had vanished ages ago.

The e-mail reply I got from them was that they no longer had any copies of the game, the manual, nor any interest in it, and the owners referred me to the underdogs site to snag what I needed....

Doesn't change the technical illegality of it, but there are clearly instances where the companies who produced the games in question have no problem with it.

-=Vel=-

[moomin]

By the way, Vel, what happened to old man Lib? I seem to recall he was on your boat, but I see no reference to him, nor do I find any recent postings by him here on 'Poly.

[Velociryx]

Lib has been silent both on our board and here at 'poly in general for some time. He signed on with us in the very earliest stages, but then personal life called him away. He has promised to check back in on us now and again, as time permits, to see how we're getting on tho....

-=Vel=-

[ravagon]

Voluntary homework???!!!

Well, I'm up for it but not until this weekend as I tend to take a very long time for these sort of things [y'know ... save, do, reload, redo ... ].

[I insist you change the abominable title though ]



On the abandonware issue, my feeling tends to be that once something is out of circulation the developers/publishers aren't making money from it, ergo aren't losing money if its available for download. Additionally AFAIK Underdogs has always removed games/apps from their site if/when asked to by the license-holders or if they became available again ...

[SpencerH]

Vel

I know you've probably seen my posts but I recommend you try out Lords of the realm II.

I think in terms of the combat model you have to decide just how much is do-able. For example if you're planning a pop-up screen for tactical control of combat then Shogun is the goal to shoot for. But that may be too complex given your resources. One step down would be shogun without the individual animations. In which case, an alternative would be something along the lines of SM's Gettysburg. It had simple unit controls and graphics but overall its almost as good as shogun for being able to include the concepts of formations, flanking attacks, morale, maneuver, and artillery within a single battlefield.

[Velociryx]

Yep....gonna check that one out as soon as I get home, Sir Spencer!

-=Vel=-

[Cyclotron]

I played Lords of the Realm I a few years ago... I thought it was a very interesting way of combining a RTS with a TBS, although both parts needed some work (especially the RTS). I liked the idea of allocating population (incidentally, that game was part of the infuence behind my population point core rules prototype), and the "food sliders" that controlled how well you were feeding the populous. That (and Lords of the Realm 2, I suppose) would be a good game to look over for more ideas on CBR.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Let's make sure that we do not have a me too game and that we stay as original as possible. I'm not saying that if there was a good way in another game to pull off something that we want to do, then not to, but there are a lot of things in this game that have been done before. Let's try to stay original where we can.

[Velociryx]

Total agreement there, RPM....in my head, I'm just not clearly seeing exactly HOW the combat resolution should play out, so wanted to get some inspiration from other sources.

-=Vel=-

[Mongoose]

I have a major beef with what seems to be all the rage in games with a diplomatic interface. To wit: AI opens diplomatic channels...usually with a threat or a demand. The player is normally frozen at that point until he takes a decision, without any ability to investigate or to recall data which he already possesses. Case in point: Your playing a game of SMAX and up into your diplomacy screen pops Guardian H'minee(sp., sorry). As usual, she either wants a tech or for you to declare war on the Usurpers... You can't check the map (to see that she has a Chaos rover right outside the base where you're a single turn from completion of a critical SP) or any diplomatic data you have (like the fact that Marr is pacted to your near neighbor Santiago.) The game demands that you take the decision almost blind. That's just terrible, in my book.

Imperialism 2 had it better. If entering an alliance would put you at war, the game told you so. If making peace would break your alliance, the game told you that. Furthermore, you could click into the diplomatic map to check for other repurcussions of what you were about to decide.

Consider this a plea for open eyed decision making!

[Velociryx]

You know...Mongoose makes an excellent point, and one I'd not thought of till he brought it up.

Seems to me that one simple way to fix that (in addition to his excellent sugesstions of following Imp2's lead and informing players up front regarding any immediate consequences of the actions they're considering) would be to include on the diplo window a small icon in one of the upper corners--we could even use an "open eye" for the icon, to represent open-eyed thinking!-- so that you could minimize the window and investigate the map and any relevant reports you might need to consult when considering the offer currently on the table.

Outstanding idea, Mongoose!

-=Vel=-

[Cyclotron]

I think a better and more novel way to approach the problem might be simply more time.

For example: Another lord calls me up at the end of his turn, asking for an alliance against another lord. This is not a decision to be made lightly, so I thank him for his request and continue with my turn. At the end of the turn, the diplo box pops up again, and now I can negotiate on the deal, and decide whether to decline it or accept it.

This way, you have all the time you need to get ready for those big decisions, and no extra viewbox is necessary.

[Zealot]

About LR II, the game is somewhat fun, but it had a serious problem with the "market wagon", since you had to click too many times if you wanted to buy ale for your troops, or wheat for planting crops in Autumn (Fall) .

About EFS, dudes, I'm having some dificulties in understanding the game, and my goals there. So here's my fundamental idea:
Don't forget to make a Tutorial, and each button of the interface MUST have a small description of its action in a Tooltip!
Thank you.

edit: I hope you guys know what a Tooltip is. In case you don't, point your mouse pointer to the clock in the Start Bar, in the bottom right corner of your screen. After two seconds of mouse inactivity, you will see a yellow box with some text in it. That yellow box is a Tooltip.