Why is Russia always so damn small!?!

ShadowFlame · May 8, 2002, 12:13

Though I can't find much time to play, in all of my games ever, which included the Russian people were always, but always (also on MarlaMap) a tiny civ. I've never seen a map with more than 15 russian cities towards endgame, or at any time.
This is to me a flaw in the "personality" that the russian AI is given. Russia is huge in real life, and in-game should also be huge. Expansionist doesn't seem to help much... It actually help me to expand when I am near expansionist civs, since their scout reaches me quicly, so I can find out right at the start where one of my future borders will be. That way I can use the "outside-in expansion" technique more effectively.
Is there anything that can be done to make Russia be breal big?

P.S.
Sorry for my ignorance (this is my first visit to the "Civ3-Civilizations" forum), but what is that "extrapack" thingy that's all over this place???
Thanks for your time.

siredgar · May 8, 2002, 12:26

I've also noticed that Russia is a lot smaller than China and sometimes even India. Usually, it comes in third if it does well though.

I would suggest the following modifications in the editor:

1. Give the Cossacks a better attack.

2. Be sure that the Russians get access to horses and saltpeter (both are required to produce Cossacks).

3. Check to see that both iron and coal are within Moscow's city range, so they can build Iron Works.

4. Change the characteristics of the Russians to produce a lot of "growth" and "offensive" units.

Finally, you can just help them. Be sure to pit the Chinese against the Indians early on because if you don't they will overwhelm the Russians.

Serb · May 8, 2002, 13:53

Perhaps it's somekind of conspiracy?

(Don't call me a paranoid please. It's a joke

)

siredgar · May 8, 2002, 21:08

It's because the programmers don't like Serb.

Serb · May 9, 2002, 07:53

Do you really think that they know about me?

siredgar · May 9, 2002, 13:57

Yes, I sent them an e-mail.

Serb · May 10, 2002, 03:54

What for?

Ecthy · May 10, 2002, 06:36

you guys are pretty spammy, given how shortly you've been here. you should both be banned.

Jethro83 · May 10, 2002, 09:02

Russia isn't always small. In fact, in my latest game, they were the biggest. I was Egypt, and our other neighbours were Greece and Rome (Tiny map, Pangaea, Regent).

Even when I stormed half of their empire, they were still larger than Rome (though I had already taken half of their empire, and the Greeks took half of that half) and were also still larger than Greece (even before I whittled them down to few cities).

Anyway, I never play any real world maps, as I prefer the computer to surprise me.

siredgar · May 11, 2002, 12:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
you guys are pretty spammy, given how shortly you've been here. you should both be banned.

That coming from someone who is self-titled "Cave Troll".

DarkCloud · May 11, 2002, 17:20

To test Russia's abilities, just play as the russians and see if you are able to easily expand. If not- then you are either a bad player, or the game truly is biased agasint a large russia?

Serb · May 12, 2002, 02:17

Quote:

Originally posted by siredgar

That coming from someone who is self-titled "Cave Troll".

Harovan · May 13, 2002, 16:07

Quote:

Originally posted by siredgar
That coming from someone who is self-titled "Cave Troll".

When it comes to trolling, you are far superior, siredgar, aren't you?

Look alone at your mega troll thread "Stop the America bashing", even though it may have been meant serious.

On topic: I also have noticed the fact, that Russia is often puny. Russia is an expansionist civilization and ought to be large. At least in my "russian" games it is. It's probably a sign, that the AI can't properly handle the expansionist trait. This assumption is proven by the fact, that other expansionist civs (England, Zululand, America) are also mostly small and weak. Only the Iroquois are often quite large and strong.

siredgar · May 14, 2002, 14:33

LOL, "mega troll thread"? Well, I have to give points to Serb for a lot of that because I only jumped in later in the game. I hate him.

Anyhow, if you follow the tips I listed, the Russians are able to expand much wider on a realistic map. Your point about the "expansionist" quality is valid and I think "growth" is a more important factor as you can see this works quite well for the Chinese and Indians.

Also, one key error in programming was that they didn't allow Horseriders or Knights to upgrade to Cossacks. I don't know if they fixed that or not though because I'm still playing v1.16f, hehe.

Harovan · May 14, 2002, 19:41

They fixed it. You can upgrade chariots, horsemen and knights to cossacks now. But the cavalry type of units is still a dead end, just like swordsmen. You should definitely try 1.21. It's a good patch.

siredgar · May 15, 2002, 12:31

I'll have to finish my game as fat, old Catherine the Great first. Right now, I control almost all of the Soviet Union's former territory, most of Eastern Europe (including Greece), much of the Middle East, Turkey, Finland, Germany, and France. I've also colonized parts of Africa and Greenland and it's only about 1550 AD. I'm about to take on China for some of their land, so I can finish the game by power domination.

Serb · May 15, 2002, 23:45

Quote:

Originally posted by siredgar
LOL, "mega troll thread"? Well, I have to give points to Serb for a lot of that because I only jumped in later in the game. I hate him.

Hate?

Me?

Why?
You consider me as greater troll then you are?

siredgar · May 17, 2002, 16:43

Yes.

Eli · May 19, 2002, 11:25

Another Israeli!

Welcome to the ZOG-Apolyton office.

Dauphin · May 19, 2002, 11:47

Europeans are far and away the best trolls. IN FACT they are so good they sometimes getting themselves believing what they are saying.

Panag · May 19, 2002, 12:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli
Another Israeli!

Welcome to the ZOG-Apolyton office.

hi ,

topic ; why is Russia always so damm small ,

because there is no good editor while in game , .......

have a nice day

Eli · May 19, 2002, 12:32

Tell me Panag... Assuming you're not a DL, do you have ICQ?

Panag · May 19, 2002, 12:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli
Tell me Panag... Assuming you're not a DL, do you have ICQ?

hi ,

ELI , you would love to know , ..........

ICQ , well that is of limits , to many bugs , .........

PM ?

topic ; if you have a map with CPT you can edit some roads , this way Russia can expand faster , if you draw roads in siberia , the AI follows that rod and start's to settle there , ....

have a nice day

Fresno · June 11, 2002, 07:40

Russia is probably always that small because the expansionist trait isn't a good one. When I want to build a large civ I never choose expansionist civs - because I can very well do without the trait.

On the other hand, I'm quite sure there must be an expansionist trait in a game like civ. It should only be done in another way, I guess...

Any ideas?

ShadowFlame · June 11, 2002, 08:45

Well, I think I heard somebody say they gave the Coracle or Canoe unit as a semi-unique unit to all expansionist civs...
I am actually thinking of making that type of enhancement all around... Or maybe just a few balancing tweaks to some of the traits. I also plan to give a few better naval vessels to all nations that were historically naval empires... I was thinking mainly England and perhaps Germany...

Fresno · June 11, 2002, 09:03

Maybe, it's an idea...

Quote:

perhaps Germany...

Germany a naval empire? I never heard of it that way. England, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands were naval powers, but as far as I know the German countries weren't. Most of them didn't even have a coast.

ShadowFlame · June 11, 2002, 09:12

I was refferring to the WWI-WWII period when Germany ruled the seas between Norway and England, and also farther sout in the Mediterrainean.
Maybe simply giving them a early submarine "U-Boat" type unit, would establish them as rulers of the sea for a few turns...
And the problem with the countries you mentioned is they do not exist in Civ3 by default...

Fresno · June 11, 2002, 09:32

Quote:

I was refferring to the WWI-WWII period when Germany ruled the seas between Norway and England, and also farther sout in the Mediterrainean.
Maybe simply giving them a early submarine "U-Boat" type unit, would establish them as rulers of the sea for a few turns...

Well, when I think of traits to give to a civ, I look at the traits it had during a longer period. However, a special modern unit would be no problem, as long as there are no benefits earlier in the game.

Quote:

And the problem with the countries you mentioned is they do not exist in Civ3 by default...

I know, I was just giving some examples. But I think they should be in too.

ShadowFlame · June 11, 2002, 09:52

I agree they should be in, but I see why they were not chosen by Firaxis to be included in the 16 civs. They simply did not ever have a huge impact on the world, and also the target crowd that was orginally intended would not feel they were appropriate. When enough good mods are created to add well done representations of those civs to the game, I will be sure to use them and improve them.

Fresno · June 11, 2002, 10:12

I don't think historical impact is the reason why they have been excluded. If that was so, the Spanish, the Hebrews and the Arabs should have been in the game. All of them had such a huge impact, for a very long period.

I agree with you about the other civs I mentioned earlier, because I see too that however they were very influential, many people are ignorant of their influence.

I keep wondering why Firaxis didn't add more civs when they launched the original game. It can't be the hardest part...