Seattle people or Global unhappiness

[Adm.Naismith]

Not an OT thread, relax

I was thinking about CIV and SMAC well know limit to portrait a nation more like an unlinked group of Cities than as a nation.

Look at citizen unhappiness: it seems more related to events happening to the city alone that in any other place in the world, and it seems more easy to happen in bad developed cities than not.

I think that, as current "Seattle people" show (at least, that's the name italian media are using, if you wonder what I'm talking about, please ask), sometime people become unhappy and revolt by something happening around the globe.

In Civ sense, I wonder if Firaxis would consider to implement:

1) FACT: world pollution raise over too much (global warming fear)
CONSEQUENCE: some citizen into your Civ start become unhappy, not because their cities are bad administered, but because of global menace
SOLUTION: diplomatic action vs. worst civ to lower global pollution; it may require you pay money to help enhance their facilities (eg. to build recycling center in every high producer cities), or to share some required ecotech

2) FACT: a civ (not at war with you ) has a very low level of life (considering Civ stats available, may be short life or bad sanitations)
CONSEQUENCE: some citizen into your Civ start become unhappy not because they are hungry or suffers, but because they want some social "justice" helping Africans dying children
SOLUTION: diplomatic action vs. suffering civ to help their level; it may require you pay money to help enhance their facilities (eg. to build supermarket to produce more food in every city at famine risk), or to share some required life tech (sanitation, medicine)

3) FACT: two civs (not at war with you ) are involved into a long and bloody war (considering military, but mainly civilian loss and pillage)
CONSEQUENCE: some citizen into your Civ start become unhappy not because they are at war, but because they feel that a world at war (may be with Civ at their border) is not a safe place to live
SOLUTION: diplomatic action vs. civs at war, to support a cease fire; it may require you pay money to stop act of war, or to share some wanted tech (not military) that was the reason of fight

Ok, I stop here my example, but you can add more according to (guessed) Civ III rules. Crusade started, help caravan sent...

I know this fit better into modern ages, but something can be used early: slavery banning first example coming to my mind.

Please, let me know what do you think about my long, long, idea

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Gramphos]

I think it's a good idea.
If you have the UN it should be easier to set up a cease fire.

In case of civil disorder you need to be informed on what the problem is.
[This message has been edited by vgriph (edited May 04, 2001).]

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by vgriph on 05-03-2001 11:03 AM If you have the UN it should be easier to set up a case fire.

"Case fire"????

[Ilkuul]

Oh, I see -- "ceasefire"! Sorry, I genuinely couldn't work out what you meant!

[Gramphos]

Ilkuul, Sorry for my spelling. Have a big English test tomorrow (not good).

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by vgriph on 05-03-2001 11:03 AM If you have the UN it should be easier to set up a cease fire. In case of civil disorder you need to be informed on what the problem is.

Good point about UN. It should be one of their duty, after all
Not mentioning others international institution (UNICEF, Red Cross, etc.)

About info, of course you need to know about raising trouble: lot of people will like to have back something like Civ 1 newspaper to have instant info; may be something like that will be perfect.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Gramphos]

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 05-03-2001 06:11 PM About info, of course you need to know about raising trouble: lot of people will like to have back something like Civ 1 newspaper to have instant info; may be something like that will be perfect.

Yes the newspaper headlines are perfect for the job as informers.

[Pingu:]

Yup, this is all a very good idea. World stability and the like should effect happiness accross your civ, and perhaps economy too.

Of course this would only make a difference if people hear about these events, and see them on the news. Perhaps this is a downside of technologies above "Mass Media", in that it both opens up your economy to trade and revenue, and of course new weapons..., but it also makes some of your citizens more aware of the world outside you own borders.

Alternatively, it could be an effect of someone building the United Nations, and giving a united world forum, so raising excpectations of the populace. (hmmmm having second thoughts about this now...).

Perhaps the Civ that build the U.N. would be less effected by the unhappiness caused by glabal threats to the economy/environment, and so is less likely to engage in peacekeeping and environmental treaties and is able to have a generally more aloof attitude to the rest of the world (Sound familiar?). Anyway, just an idea...

Pingu:

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Pingu: on 05-04-2001 11:48 AM Of course this would only make a difference if people hear about these events, and see them on the news. Perhaps this is a downside of technologies above "Mass Media", in that it both opens up your economy to trade and revenue, and of course new weapons..., but it also makes some of your citizens more aware of the world outside you own borders.

Yes, global awareness is only a modern concept. Some events played a role also in ancient time (e.g. Crusade), to some extent, because priests where used to influence "citizen". But I'm cutting a serius argument in a too simplicistic brief: sorry for this to every historian out there.

quote: Perhaps the Civ that build the U.N. would be less effected by the unhappiness caused by global threats to the economy/environment, and so is less likely to engage in peacekeeping and environmental treaties and is able to have a generally more aloof attitude to the rest of the world (Sound familiar?). Anyway, just an idea...

Don't confuse central governement (and their flanking corporations) needs with common people opinions.
Point is, if you reduce your citizen "luxury" they'll obviously change their mind and start protesting for local happiness.
That's good in game balancing, because you must consider the two faces of your actions

[Buck Birdseed]

You could also involve the late-game corporations in this, if corporations become too powerful your unhappiness will rise... Also, perhaps high luxury levels in late game will work against you.

And why not use the Internet Wonder for this in some way? For example, you could make every other civ's public awareness rating go up, making their citizens unhappy if they declare war/exploit others/pollute/spend too much on luxuries.

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Snapcase on 05-05-2001 02:06 PM You could also involve the late-game corporations in this, if corporations become too powerful your unhappiness will rise... Also, perhaps high luxury levels in late game will work against you.

I have no idea how Firaxis will make Corporations working (if in game at all), but they could surely play a role, if rules aren't too hard to develop and balance.

quote: And why not use the Internet Wonder for this in some way? For example, you could make every other civ's public awareness rating go up, making their citizens unhappy if they declare war/exploit others/pollute/spend too much on luxuries.

I think that's a role of every Mass Media: newspaper, radio and TV played this game long before Internet did. Internet simply put some power more widely available (to some citizen class, at least, is not that Internet is really available to poor people).