Super Apolyton Pack! The Fan's Unofficial Patch. - Page 7

mnbryan37 · December 16, 2002, 22:46

Pedrunn,

Thanks for the reply, but I had checked that already.

Xeir · December 17, 2002, 15:22

Hi Guys,

I've been an avid Civ and CTP player for many years. I found an inexpensive copy of CTP2 a couple months ago and haven't touched Civ3 since. What a great game!! I found this website through the MoO3 forum and was overjoyed to discover all of the resourses available here. I downloaded the SAP and really love it. However, I have a couple questions.

I noticed that the values for some of the tiles have been changed. Specifically, the production value for all the sea tiles has been reduced or eliminated completely. I have looked all over this site and the forum, but have not found any information as to why this was changed. Is there a specific reason for the change? Is it a balance thing? Is there a way to reset the tile values to their original settings without changing the rest of the mod? (Basically I don't like the way costal and undersea cities are getting shafted. Why build an undersea city if the production is so poor?)

My next question has to do with diplomacy. Has the Research Pact been removed from the game? I have not seen the option available in any of the games I have played with the SAP. Is there some sort of prerequisite that I'm missing? Do I need to have a full alliance or something?

I'd really appreciate and info on this that you can provide.

Thanks!

Maquiladora · December 17, 2002, 17:01

I cant speak directly for Dale, who did most of the putting together of SAP i think. But i think the main reason for lowering production near the coast is because it was easily the best place to found a city in the default game, almost too good. 10 10 10 for food shield and commerce is the best bar none. I dont think undersea cities were taken into consideration because not many people get that far in the game often.

If you want to alter the values back, open APOL_terrain.txt in ...\Call To Power 2\ctp2_data\default\gamedata and change them to the values in the default, terrain.txt

The research pact was taken out because it was botched and didnt benefit the human at all, if i recall correctly.

Peter Triggs · December 17, 2002, 18:58

I'm pretty sure that Dale took those settings from MedMod. IIRC, Wes felt the AI was not building enough inland cities and so lowered the benefits of coastal tiles to try to disuade them from building there. The downside, though, is that if it doesn't have many coastal cities, it can't build many ships.

rsewar2 · December 23, 2002, 08:35

Hi,
just started using apolyton pack for the first time, andhave difficulty set to medium, but AI doesn#'t seem to have improved - there is a large continent that we share with several AI civs, just about all of which we are at war with, but there are almost no AI attacks, and almost no unit stacking at all - we are just breezing through each AI civ, much in the style of an unmodded ctp2 game.
It's a 2 player LAN game - we both launch ctp2 via modswapper (super apolyton pack selected) and create a game as normal from there. What are we doing wrong?
Please help - I want the AI civs to have their revenge!

SMIFFGIG · December 23, 2002, 08:37

well what difficulty setting do you have it on ?

rsewar2 · December 23, 2002, 10:48

Medium, which is weird cos I've seen other posts where people have said there was a huge improvement by this difficulty.
Am I going about launching a modded MP game the right way (launch via modswapper, then usual MP ctp2 setup)? If so I'll try re-installing everything to see if I can spot a difference.

Martin Gühmann · December 23, 2002, 18:32

You could try GoodMod or Cradle. Cradle is a mod on its own and covers the acient age. GoodMod is a addon for ApolytonPack and MedPack. It has in comparision to pure ApolytonPack a more agresive AI. The AI stacks its units more often and has a more agressive expansion strategy. But note even in Cradle and GoodMod you should have a huge continent that you share with the AIs to have a more challenging game.

-Martin

Maquiladora · December 23, 2002, 21:02

Maybe because your playing in multiplayer the AI isnt using frenzy code. I know that some slic gets messed up in MP. Im surprised you managed to launch a MP game without any slic errors at all in fact.

mnbryan37 · December 23, 2002, 22:01

rsewar2

There are a number of differences included in the Apolyton Pack, many of which help the AI's much more at the higher difficulty levels. In most cases it simply gives the AI a bigger head start or higher productivity rates. The differences in these areas is fairly minimal at the medium level, but much more pronouced at the harder levels. For example, at the medium level the AI's start with 5 advances, 2 units, 1000 gold, and 200 public works points, but at the imposible level it's 9 advances, 4 units, 10,000 gold, and 1,000 public works points. I would suggest you move up at least 2 levels of difficulty. I also have found that the frenzy code added to the Apolyton Pack, which compels AI's to be much more agressive against the human player, is not effective in a multiplayer game. One of the neat features of CTP2 though, is that it is very easy to modify many of the program factors. For example, in the DiffDB file (Program Files\Activision\Call To Power 2\ctp2 data\default\gamedata\APOL DiffDB) you can increase the starting strength of the AI's to whatever you want. Increasing their starting number of units to 10 - 15 is very effective.

Of all the mod's that are available for CTP2, the one with the most agressive AI is Cradle (which can be found at the Apolyton web site). I have played a lot of CTP2 games, and yet actually lost to the AI at the Impossible level of this Mod. I've not played this Mod in Multiplayer though.

child of Thor · December 24, 2002, 14:55

When i play LAN MP i always set dificulty to at least Hard, to give the AI a little longer to survive. With 2-3 players use medium size maps or smaller to get the game going quicker.

Maquiladora · December 26, 2002, 08:46

Ive been doing alot of sparring with SAP+GoodMod seeing as we're using it in the Democracy game soon and i thought id make a couple of suggestions for the next update, if there ever is one...

1. AdvanceLists.txt - I noticed this is unchanged from the original game. Find attached a copy of the one ive been using for awhile now, i was trying to make the AI play like an efficient MP opponent. Particularly concentrating on certain landmark discoveries and ones that are critical for certain stages of the game. Keeping in mind this is to cover every evetuality because the AI cant change its mind (unless its specifically told to, using a certain advance_list), be it map size, early war, islands game etc.

I. Hoplites and Archers first, then a total b-line to Monarchy. So Horse Riding and Feudalism get bumped down straight after Monarchy. Better to get the AI into its first real government before the human has any fast units and give it a base to build Knights and Mounted Archers from.

Feudalism was before Philosophy, which was stupid IMO, as for a start the AI would be better off building 4 Hoplites than one Knight and Feudalism costs more science beakers than Philosophy, Jurisprudence or Trade, and science isnt worth **** until you get Monarchy, so go for the easy advances towards Monarchy.

II. Stone working bumped down too, pointless advance at such an early stage as it was wasting production on city walls which you can build in < 3 turns with it further down now and you can build roughly 3 hoplites instead of the city walls, if your really on the defensive, and city walls cant attack the human. Concrete next the AI should have 10+ pop cities easy so aqueducts. (unless theres drastic changes in overcrowding for SAP)

III. Next, Agricultural Revolution(adv farms), Gunpowder which allows research Cavalry Tactics. IMO the AI shouldnt build Infantrymen. Cannons and Cavalry, or just Cavalry would do the job, even defending, even at this stage the human would have just got Classical Education or worse. Next Theology onto Fascism, change government to Fascism. Iron Working and Cannon making should be done in next to no time.

IV. Next jump onto Industrial Revolution, Machine Gunners pointless again for the AI, just build Cavalry, 4 movement, same armour and 2 vision to Machine Gunner 2 movement 1 vision and of course invaluable Flanking for Cavalry still. Explosives gives Artillery instead of Cannons.

V. Change government to Communism and dont change to Democracy when it comes, its just a prerequsite now. This is because theres stacks of Commerce floating around at this stage, this has changed alot in SAP because of the commerce terrain changes but i still think this is a better route for the AI to win, not survive in the future, to WIN.

Blah blah thats about it.

Bazaar - pointless building for at least the first 200 turns of the game, +10% Gold is poop in anyones money. Either increase the bonus to 50-75% or make the AI build it waaay later, until it needs Banks or at least after building Universities in every city.

Theres loads of units i wouldnt have the AI build, Machine Gunner, Paratrooper, Catapult, PT Boat, Destroyer, Battleship, Scout Sub etc etc but probably if people knew the AI wouldnt build them they might not play it, but it would certainly make the AI more resourceful and obviously more powerful. Better option would be to balance these units and give them each an advantage in their own era and a reason to upgrade to, thats alot harder, and also alot harder for the AI to have a fully updated army then.

The default game's advances, units and buildings offer the best oppotunity for gameplay IMO because its simple and more playable to some degree because its easy to learn, its just a matter of making the AI gradually more in control of it all without giving it large bonuses.

Just my thoughts, i may realise some are way off when i read them back later, but for now at least they make sense. I only mentioned the first 250+ odd turns of the game because thats all ive played upto in the default game for quite a while. Enough of my ramblings.

Immortal Wombat · December 26, 2002, 10:29

Nice work Maq!

Martin the Dane · December 26, 2002, 18:51

Well I haven't played CTP2 more than a few afternoons, I just bought it the other day, (yes I finally bought it

) and have not even played a full game yet, but one thing I noticed is that swamps can be improved with farms, this is imo not very realistic.

Judging by the amount of swamps on the CTP2 maps swamps represents a wet verso of the grasslands. If this is so it should be possible to farm swamps, and with quite good results.

As a mater of fact I believe farms on swamps should yeld a little mor than farms on grassland, I would suggest +15 units of food, on swamps compared to the +10 for grassland, this will still leave grasslang better than swamps but not by so much.

Maybe farming swamps should requre som additional technology beside farming.

The above appies to advanced farms as well, while I think any tile capable of holding hydrophonic farms should yield the same regardless of the underlaying terrain.

Peter Triggs · December 26, 2002, 19:43

I've always liked Wes's idea of letting swamps and tundra allow drilling platforms. It's quite straightforward to get the AI civs to put them in.

Maquiladora · December 26, 2002, 19:59

Drilling platforms certainly on tundra

but only nature preserves on swamps and perhaps even increase the defence bonus to 50% for swamps to make them more useful.

Martin the Dane · December 26, 2002, 20:40

Drilling platforms make sence, but that only makes swamps usefull in the later ages.

But take rice. This important grain only grows naturally in swamps, and as a crop only in man-made "swamps".

When, according to the people of Bangladesh, the area today known as Bangladesh was settled is was mainly swamp and was settled for two reasons. First it was firtile land, and secondly it was easy to defend.

Today many areas in Bangladesh yields three crops/year, and the land is able to sustain more than 100 million people. If you fly over Bangladesh, most of the year you'd think it was all flodded, but in reality it's farmed. Farming swamps require different technologies than farming drier land, but it can be extremely efficient seen from a yield/area perspective.

I recognices that many will not agree with me, so how do I make the AI use farms on swamps?

Peter Triggs · December 27, 2002, 10:03

Quote:

how do I make the AI use farms on swamps?

Open whatever version of tileimp.txt you're using (GM1_tileimp.txt, if you've added GoodMod in). (I know you know that Martin. That's for anyone else who might want to do this.) In the record TILEIMP_FARMS there's a sub-structure TerrainEffect. Change it to:

Code:

TerrainEffect {
      Terrain TERRAIN_SWAMP
      Terrain TERRAIN_DESERT
      Terrain TERRAIN_GRASSLAND
      Terrain TERRAIN_PLAINS

      BonusFood 10
      EnableAdvance ADVANCE_AGRICULTURE
      ProductionCost 200
      ProductionTime 2
      TilesetIndex 5
   }

If you're using GM1_tileimp.txt, in the main body of TILEIMP_FARMS, you'll have to delete the line 'CantBuildOn TERRAIN_SWAMP'. Then do the same thing for TILEIMP_ADVANCED_FARMS and TILEIMP_HYDROPONIC_FARMS.

Quote:

As a mater of fact I believe farms on swamps should yeld a little mor than farms on grassland, I would suggest +15 units of food, on swamps compared to the +10 for grassland, this will still leave grasslang better than swamps but not by so much.

Maybe farming swamps should requre som additional technology beside farming.

If you want to do this, then instead of just adding TERRAIN_SWAMP to the terrain effect sub-structure, you'll have to add a new one to the TILEIMP_FARMS record:

Code:

TerrainEffect {
      Terrain TERRAIN_SWAMP
      
      BonusFood 15
      EnableAdvance ADVANCE_AGRICULTURE 
      ProductionCost 200
      ProductionTime 2
      TilesetIndex 5
   }

Here you could change the enabling advance to whatever additional technology you want.

That should do it. The AI does everything by priorities, and food is it's highest priority.

Martin Gühmann · December 27, 2002, 13:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
The AI does everything by priorities, and food is it's highest priority.

Actual I doubt if you can generalize it. The AI puts in GoodMod for Apolyton pack mines on desert, mountains, hills and plains irrespective of the fact if the surrounding of the city is already filled with mines. Have you there plains then all plains will be covered with mines. I remember in the default game the AI is able to put commerce tile improvements on deserts but I don't know why. So the whole thing is more more complicated but if you only allow food improvements on swamp then it should work.

By the way if you haven't voted for CTP in the Top Games Series poll. Then you cvan vote until the end of this year. And don't forget to vote in the Top Single Game poll (not series), too.

CTP needs you.

-Martin

Manta23 · December 29, 2002, 16:33

I just started using the Super Apolyton Mod and I just love it. But I noticed a problem later into the game. Air units: When i moved them a error pops up saying "C:\Program Files\Activision\Call To Power 2\ctp2_data\gamedata\apol_airunit.slc:112: Array index 0 out of bounds" Then i click ok and the unit moves....but it does this everytime i want to move. Any fixes for it?

Tamerlin · December 29, 2002, 20:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Manta23
Any fixes for it?

Welcome Manta23, have you changed the line DebugSlic=Yes to DebugSlic=No in the userprofile.txt file you will find in the C:\Program Files\Activision\Call To Power 2\ctp2_program\ctp folder? This line must be changed if you want the Super Apolyton Pack 2 to run properly.

If you have already changed this line... well... I guess the others will be able to help you...

And they will...

Pedrunn · December 30, 2002, 23:24

No, thats a tipical debugSlic=Yes bug. Just do what Tamerlin said mantra23

RunsWithDwarf · December 31, 2002, 00:32

Pedrunn, did you get my E-mail.

Martin Gühmann · December 31, 2002, 11:24

Alternativly you could use the GoodMod version of the airunit.slc. I fixed the error out of bounds DebugSlic=Yes error. Just download and unzip the attachment into your ..\ctp2_data\default\gamedata\ folder. And search in that folder for a file called APOL_main.slc. Open this file with any text editor of your choice e.g. notepad. There you find a line like this:

#include "APOL_airunit.slc"

Replace it by:

#include "GM1_airunit.slc"

Finally reload your save game. Once it is reloaded you have to reload slic, to do this just open the chat window by using the apostrophe key (') and enter: /reloadslic

-Martin

RunsWithDwarf · December 31, 2002, 16:21

I'm not sure if this is where I should post this question,
but it is a multipart query, that addresses several modifications, and their compatibility with the SuperApolyton Pack. And as I know most of the modders
try to make their modifications compatible with other modders mods I thought it would be better to address all of these things at once, as opposed to addressing each one separately with their individual creators.
So I'll apologize ahead of time, if this is in the wrong thread. So on to the question.
iskallin, made a world map for the SuperApolyton Pack,
that to my understanding of what I read in its description allows you to play against all the available
races, who start out from their historical starting points, and this mod plays as a scenario. Do I undestand that correctly? and if so, has he made one yet that can simply
be loaded in a hotseat game (where I can pick the races available, and where they start) also can I play a hotseat game through the SuperApolyton pack? Next,
Martin Guhmann created the City Mod 2.1/City Mod English and City Mod 2 Graphics Pack, What is the Difference between City Mod 2.1 and the City Mod 2 Graphics Pack? and is one required to play with the other? Also are they compatible with the SuperApolyton
Pack? Next, Immortal Wombat created the Visible Wonders Mod, is it compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack? Also, the same question for his Natural Wonders Mod. Next, Pedrunn modified and expanded upon BlueO's City Expansion, is it compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack? Also, in regards to this, the description says once a tile is destroyed it can never be repaired, or reused much as a polluted tile, Why is this?
must it always remain a virtual slum (for lack of a better word)? can it not be repaired and reused later after acheiving the neccessary advances that you need to clean up polluted tiles? Next, Martin Guhmann created the Commerce Improvements for AI's, is it compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack? Next, to my understanding
almost all of these that I have mentioned require the
Apolyton Tile File by Pedrunn, do I also need Martin the
Dane's Tile Edit utility?
Well I think that about sums it up, and I hope this is understandable. I guess in a nutshell, I would like to have all of these features available in my CTP2 SuperApolyton game. Is that possible?
I'm pretty sure my system could handle it.
Also is there a list somewhere that shows what mods are compatible with what mods? and if not should somebody make one? to avoid extremely long complex
questions like this in the future?
If a tree falls in the.....er sorry got carried away.

Maquiladora · December 31, 2002, 16:31

Well ill answer one.

Quote:

Next, to my understanding
almost all of these that I have mentioned require the
Apolyton Tile File by Pedrunn, do I also need Martin the
Dane's Tile Edit utility?

Nope not to play, not unless you want to make modifications to the tile file yourself.

RunsWithDwarf · December 31, 2002, 17:05

Thank You! Maquiladora.
Now, only a dozen more replies to go and I should be all set eh!!..

Pedrunn · December 31, 2002, 17:46

Quote:

Originally posted by RunsWithDwarf
Pedrunn, did you get my E-mail.

My apolyton e-mail is broken for a wwk now. I just changed. Try thi e-mail:

pbcavalcanti@hotmail.com

Pedrunn · December 31, 2002, 17:49

Quote:

Next, Pedrunn modified and expanded upon BlueO's City Expansion, is it compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack?

You will have a new Modswapper option for apolyton Pack + City Expansion once you have my mod installed. The Apolyton Pack is the only mod which my city expansion can be used as a expansion (

that sounded funny) so far

Quote:

If a tree falls in the.....er sorry got carried away.

Locutus · January 1, 2003, 05:32

RunsWithDwarf,
Since it will probably take several people to answer all your questions, it would have been easier to help you if you had ordered that post a little better - i.e. one question per paragraph (and maybe numbering the paragraphs). I'll give that (and giving some answers) a shot...

Quote:

Originally posted by RunsWithDwarf
iskallin, made a world map for the SuperApolyton Pack, that to my understanding of what I read in its description allows you to play against all the available races, who start out from their historical starting points, and this mod plays as a scenario. Do I undestand that correctly?

Yes, although be warned that some of his scenarios work slightly differently than he advertises (i.e. he says they're open for all nations while in fact they can only be played with 28), but IIRC the AP one works as advertised.

Quote:

and if so, has he made one yet that can simply be loaded in a hotseat game (where I can pick the races available, and where they start) also can I play a hotseat game through the SuperApolyton pack?

Yes, *if* all players are playable, you can always use a Hotseat game to pick your opponents (when the choices are limited this may not always be possible, not sure how that works).

Quote:

Next, Martin Guhmann created the City Mod 2.1/City Mod English and City Mod 2 Graphics Pack, What is the Difference between City Mod 2.1 and the City Mod 2 Graphics Pack? and is one required to play with the other? Also are they compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack?

The Graphics Pack is the modmaker version: if a modmaker ever wants to change the graphics Martin made, the Graphics Pack contains the source graphics. You don't ever need these as a player (it's not even playable), only as a modmaker. The City Mod is actually part of the Apolyton Pack, so I suppose you could regard it compatible

Quote:

Next, Immortal Wombat created the Visible Wonders Mod, is it compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack? Also, the same question for his Natural Wonders Mod.

I'll leave it to IW to answer the that.

Quote:

Next, Pedrunn modified and expanded upon BlueO's City Expansion, is it compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack? Also, in regards to this, the description says once a tile is destroyed it can never be repaired, or reused much as a polluted tile, Why is this?
must it always remain a virtual slum (for lack of a better word)? can it not be repaired and reused later after acheiving the neccessary advances that you need to clean up polluted tiles?

Actually, that description is a little unclear. I've seen city ruins been restored again by being replaced by new 'suburbs'. This also makes perfect sense to me: if a city grows and then collapses, part of the city will fall in ruin. If later on, the city grows again, it will rebuild over the ruins of the old city. This happens all the time in real life (one of the most famous cases is probably Troy, where it happened like 7 times).

[quote]Next, Martin Guhmann created the Commerce Improvements for AI's, is it compatible with the SuperApolyton Pack?[quote]
I *think* that's actually part of the AP already, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Someone else can answer that for sure, I hope.

Quote:

Next, to my understanding
almost all of these that I have mentioned require the
Apolyton Tile File by Pedrunn, do I also need Martin the
Dane's Tile Edit utility?

Visible & Natural Wonders as well as City Expansion require the Tile File, the others don't. You only need the Tile File itself, nothing else. Unless you want to be able to inspect the file, but that's not necessary. Just d/l-ing it and replacing your existing file with it is enough.

Quote:

Well I think that about sums it up, and I hope this is understandable. I guess in a nutshell, I would like to have all of these features available in my CTP2 SuperApolyton game. Is that possible?

Most of them already are, the ones that may not be yet (mainly Natural Wonders from what I can tell), should be fairly easy to get to work.

Quote:

Also is there a list somewhere that shows what mods are compatible with what mods? and if not should somebody make one? to avoid extremely long complex
questions like this in the future?

The major mods (Cradle, MedMod, AP, etc) are not compatible unless explicitly stated otherwise (e.g. GoodMod). Other than that the only mods that are out there are mods that aren't real mods but more like single features (Visible/Natural Wonders, City Expansion, etc). Those can be annoying, as until a few months ago they were simply included in the major mods as soon as they came out, but right now this is taking much longer. Some mods may in fact never be updated as their creators moved on to other things... But either way, the readmes and/or forum threads of various mods/features always explicitly mention with which mods they are/aren't compatible.