Did the Axis have any chance at all in WWII?

Jaguar · May 10, 2002, 22:00

Do you think that the Germans, Italians, and Japanese could have won World War II if they employed different strategies, or was the US too powerful?

Ned · May 10, 2002, 22:05

Keeping the U.S. out of the war was their only hope. Ned

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:06

haven't you played Civ2? Christ, I can beat it with the Axis even on Deity

Jaguar · May 10, 2002, 22:08

I can beat it with the Neutrals on dety.

(I have!)

In the real world the americans consisted of a bit more than washington and new york.

KrazyHorse · May 10, 2002, 22:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
Do you think that the Germans, Italians, and Japanese could have won World War II if they employed different strategies, or was the US too powerful?

Without the US the Japanese would have driven the British back to Australia and made the Eatern Pacific their playground. The British would still have driven the Axis out of North Africa, and the Russians would have steamrollered them right to the Atlantic.

Without Russia in the picture (also assuming the Germans don't have to even defend on that front), the Germans could have taken North Africa. Britain would have held out, and you'd be left with a cold war across the Channel.

It's funny how you think the US did most of the work in WWII...

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
I can beat it with the Neutrals on dety.

(I have!)

In the real world the americans consisted of a bit more than washington and new york.

nope, not until WW3 with the Soviet Union in 1979

Mikhail · May 10, 2002, 22:13

Germans could have, if they had a smarter leader who didn't commit so many men to racist genocide. Also, Britain was losing pretty bad, Germany COULD have offered Britain peace half-way through the war, and simply kept their gained territory in Europe.

The Japanese could have won as well, if they hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor. Seriously, I doubt the US would have cared whether or not Japan controlled China. FDR would have most likely never been able to convince the US public that entering the war was a must if not for Pearl Harbor.

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:15

Better question is: If Barbarossa never took place (in other words: Operation Hitler is a bleeding moron) could Germany have conquered England?

KrazyHorse · May 10, 2002, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by orange
Better question is: If Barbarossa never took place (in other words: Operation Hitler is a bleeding moron) could Germany have conquered England?

I already answered that. I don't think so. They might have been able to pull it off if they'd thrown everything and the kitchen sink across the Channel in 1940.

To quote an idiot who spoke too soon "Hitler had missed the boat" by Barbarossa.

Inverse Icarus · May 10, 2002, 22:20

I've actually discussed this with my boss (he served in ww2, grunt) and he claimed that the Germans (or as he called them, "Krauts") had America "Out gunned, Out manned, and Outthought".

the out gunned part is sinmple to understand, German weaponry gave Germany a slight edge. Out manned didnt seem right to me, but he claims that in all the action he's seen, the Krauts had more men then expected / wanted. as for "out thought", i uppose he's talkign about Rommel and the Gang, but i'm not quite sure.

Overall, i think Germany had a good shot at winning their side of ww2, England was a formidable foe, and America pushed them over the edge. My Grandfather, who also served in ww2 said "The Germans Messed Up Big Time, and We Capitialized on Their Mistakes". i'm not sure what he's referring to, but i'm only a minor ww2 buff.

another way germany could have won would have been if they left russia alone for a while longer, although the US probably would have pushed russia to attack germany anyway.

on the japanese front, I think they had an extremely good shot at winning. if you ignore the nukes on hiro - naga, the Japanese were actually doing rather well for most of the war. The American "Island Hopping" strategy was slow comming. The japanese could have taken all of southeast asia, and mayeb a chunk of russia, but BOTH sides of the war are directly influenced by the other.

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:21

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I already answered that. I don't think so. They might have been able to pull it off if they'd thrown everything and the kitchen sink across the Channel in 1940.

To quote an idiot who spoke too soon "Hitler had missed the boat" by Barbarossa.

sorry, didnt' read that.

Well, I think sealion was similarly doomed to failure...and that the best plan would be to consolidate and make an agreement with the US and England somewhere around August 1942. Push sending forces to Japan...

However, barbarossa, if implemented earlier (as it was supposed to) may have proved more lucrative than it was after north africa...i still don't think they would have won, though...maybe just taken and held Leningrad, Stalingrad, maybe a stalemate over moscow

Inverse Icarus · May 10, 2002, 22:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Mikhail
Germans could have, if they had a smarter leader who didn't commit so many men to racist genocide.

i know i love my genocide unbiased

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:23

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
another way germany could have won would have been if they left russia alone for a while longer, although the US probably would have pushed russia to attack germany anyway.

not likely...Communism was just as bitterly opposed as Fascism...and there'd be no reason to think Russia would go along with it, seeing as how the pact with Hitler was mutually beneficial...and the USSR desparately needed to industrialize, so it didn't want war.

Inverse Icarus · May 10, 2002, 22:25

Quote:

Originally posted by orange

not likely...Communism was just as bitterly opposed as Fascism...and there'd be no reason to think Russia would go along with it, seeing as how the pact with Hitler was mutually beneficial...and the USSR desparately needed to industrialize, so it didn't want war.

well the US pursuaded them to figth Japan, didn't they?

OH WHAT TANGELED WEBS WE WEAVE.

KrazyHorse · May 10, 2002, 22:26

orange, the disparity of forces was most overwhelming near the start of the war. The UK didn't start taking the war seriously until the 8 awful weeks in the spring of 1940.

Once a cold war situation develops, you have to remember that Germany is only barely outproducing the British, and they have the headache of trying to keep the occupied territories from revolting. No matter how much time passes, you're still left with 20 miles of open water to cross with the best navy in the world just waiting for those nice, soft troop ships...

KrazyHorse · May 10, 2002, 22:28

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX

well the US pursuaded them to figth Japan, didn't they?

OH WHAT TANGELED WEBS WE WEAVE.

The Russian-Japanese fight lasted around a week, and they got a fair deal of territorial concessions out of it. Getting the Roosians to fight the Japanese in 1945 was a PR stunt.

Velociryx · May 10, 2002, 22:28

The Axis was doomed so long as Hitler was calling the shots in Germany. He started strong....didn't have what it took to finish the game.

Should have sued for peace somewhere, and given his Japanese counterpart an a$$ whoopin for even contemplating the attack at Pearl.

If he hadn't been so hell bent on going after Russia, he could have consolidated his Euro gains, seen Japan rape most of China, and called it a day.

Greed.

Gets 'em every time.

-=Vel=-

Ethelred · May 10, 2002, 22:28

Quote:

Originally posted by orange
Better question is: If Barbarossa never took place (in other words: Operation Hitler is a bleeding moron) could Germany have conquered England?

No. Germany didn't have a chance and even Hitler knew it. The US and Britain spent years preparing for the Channel crossing and it was still fairly hard with all that experience from making landings in the Pacific.

The German plan depended on the Luftwaffe acting as artillery support, bombing roads, beating Fighter Command, stopping the British Navy and most likely making Hitler's coffee all at the same time.

Inverse Icarus · May 10, 2002, 22:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx

If he hadn't been so hell bent on going after Russia, he could have consolidated his Euro gains, seen Japan rape most of China, and called it a day.

leibensraum anyone? what nation had the most jews in it? russia.

ethnic cleansing his own nation wasnt enough, he didnt want any nasties immigrating into it later either,

Ethelred · May 10, 2002, 22:30

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
No matter how much time passes, you're still left with 20 miles of open water to cross with the best navy in the world just waiting for those nice, soft troop ships...

And Germany didn't HAVE any troop ships. They requistioned river barges for the job. Hurt river shipping in the process.

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:32

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
orange, the disparity of forces was most overwhelming near the start of the war. The UK didn't start taking the war seriously until the 8 awful weeks in the spring of 1940.

Once a cold war situation develops, you have to remember that Germany is only barely outproducing the British, and they have the headache of trying to keep the occupied territories from revolting. No matter how much time passes, you're still left with 20 miles of open water to cross with the best navy in the world just waiting for those nice, soft troop ships...

Did I stutter when I said that I think sealion was doomed to failure?

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:33

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX

well the US pursuaded them to figth Japan, didn't they?

OH WHAT TANGELED WEBS WE WEAVE.

That was after the evil communist dictator became "Uncle Joe"

Velociryx · May 10, 2002, 22:33

Like I said, Uber....Greed in one form or another. Should have left well enough alone....didn't he read about the last Euro to try Russia in the winter?

Shoulda studied those history books...tsk tsk....

-=Vel=-

KrazyHorse · May 10, 2002, 22:34

You don't need that much shipping, as long as you can protect it. The distance is short enough that you can make multiple trips every day. Grab a beachhead with 25-30 000 troops, go back, get more...

I don't think it would have succeeded, but it was Hitler's best chance of getting across the Channel.

Inverse Icarus · May 10, 2002, 22:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Like I said, Uber....Greed in one form or another. Should have left well enough alone....didn't he read about the last Euro to try Russia in the winter?

Shoulda studied those history books...tsk tsk....

-=Vel=-

it's pretty damn funny how NO ONE beats russia (except the mongols of course).

i made a note of that in my world domination plans. i re named them "My World Domination Minus Russia Plans".

goign to bed for the night. Physics Practice AP test tomorrow morning. later all.

KrazyHorse · May 10, 2002, 22:35

Quote:

Originally posted by orange

Did I stutter when I said that I think sealion was doomed to failure?

I'm saying that sea lion gave the best chance Hitler was ever going to have. The longer he waited, the worse things got.

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:36

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
leibensraum anyone?

what, 250,000 sq. miles of central Europe wasn't enough?

Sprayber · May 10, 2002, 22:37

Say the Germans had made peace with America and Britain, could they have held their territory together for all these years?

KrazyHorse · May 10, 2002, 22:37

Probably not, unless they evolved into a less repressive government.

orange · May 10, 2002, 22:38

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I'm saying that sea lion gave the best chance Hitler was ever going to have. The longer he waited, the worse things got.

I agree, but I still don't think he ever had a shot at doing it successfully...even assuming he went for it right after Poland...or even right after Norway...