Minor Wonders

Roman · May 1, 2001, 17:39

Firaxis has already announced that Minor Wonders will be included in Civ 3. IMO this is a very good idea.

What do you people think, which wonders will now be minor and which major?

MarBaS · May 1, 2001, 17:47

Well they already stated that The Great Wall was going to appear on the map as the new Canal will be majors. Im guessing the Manhatton Project and the Space wonders will be minors. Im guessing that alot of the modern age wonders will be minor and the old ones will be more Major, but it will be balanced also. I bet the Great Lighthouse will be a minor one also.

Ralf · May 1, 2001, 17:47

Quote from Smellymummy about PC-Gamer info:
"It did give numbers for the minor wonders, 24 in all (and 12 major wonders)."

First of all; How should one interpret above?

Does it mean...

- 12 small wonders + 12 big ones = 24
- 24 small wonders + 12 big ones = 36

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 01, 2001).]

Roman · May 1, 2001, 17:53

quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 05-01-2001 05:47 PM
Quote from Smellymummy about PC-Gamer info:
"It did give numbers for the minor wonders, 24 in all (and 12 major wonders)."

First of all; How should one interpret above?

Does it mean...

- 12 small wonders + 12 big ones = 24
- 24 small wonders + 12 big ones = 36

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 01, 2001).]

Ralf, it must be 36 wonders in total, since they also said they are keeping all the old wonders (but changing their functions) and adding some new ones.

May 1, 2001, 17:58

24 minor, 12 major

King Richard · May 2, 2001, 06:23

Now that we know there will be 24 minor wonders and 12 major wonder, we can assume the following: There are four ages in civ3 (confirmed), every age will have 9 wonders, 3 of these will be major ones. We know that all the wonders from civ2 is still in. Meaning that every age will have 2 more wonders. We know that the following wonders will be in: Great Canal, Internet, Strategic Defence Initiative (what is this??? Is it the pentagon seen in the screenshots???). We can also see a big temple in the screenshots. This must clearly be the temple of Artemis at Ephesus (classical wonder). We've also seen the tower of Babel, which is a "runner-up" for beeing one of the classical wonders of the world. If this isn't going to be a classical wonder in civ 3, one of the following will be: Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, Statue of Zeus at Olympia, Stonehenge or the Sphinx. In addition to the Internet wonder, I think/hope that the International Space Station will be the second new modern wonder, I'm not sure of the third... When it comes to the additional two ages I haven't really thought about which wonders should be in, but the East-India company could be one, so could the Taj Mahal.

The major wonders in the ancient world: Great Wall, Pyramids and Great Library (there were a lot of pyramids in Egypt, Mesoamerica and Asia, but I think Firaxis will go for the three most difficult wonders to construct).

The major wonders in the modern world: United Nations, International Space Station and one more that I haven't figured out yet...

Any suggestions on the rest???

Roman · May 2, 2001, 06:55

My contempt for the ISS

has been described extensively in another thread (the name of which I cannot remember), so I am not going to restate it here.

Anyway, here is a copy of what I think the ISS wonder should do:

As to the space station:-
I think the ISS should be made into a wonder. It would have the effect of costing a fortune to build and then draining science production from the cities of the civilization that built it to represent the lack of useful science conducted at the ISS, as well as the enormous upkeep costs that could otherwise be invested into research. The purpose of the wonder would be: The human player would build it if he/she was too far ahead of the AI to retain some level of challenge in the game.

Zanzin · May 2, 2001, 07:08

quote:

Originally posted by Roman on 05-02-2001 06:55 AM

The purpose of the wonder would be: The human player would build it if he/she was too far ahead of the AI to retain some level of challenge in the game.

This actually makes a lot of sense - it's kind of like a bonus wonder if you're way out in front...which, in real life, the US is (I know, it's the International space station, but we'd be kidding ourselves if we didn't admit that without America the ISS wouldn't happen)

[This message has been edited by Zanzin (edited May 02, 2001).]

King Richard · May 2, 2001, 07:35

Well, forgive me for not reading every suggestion you think of!!! Do you have any clue on the rest of the wonders???

Henrik · May 2, 2001, 14:15

quote:

Originally posted by King Richard on 05-02-2001 06:23 AMthe East-India company could be one

Obviously this would have to be a minor wonder since allmost all nations had one

Imran Siddiqui · May 2, 2001, 15:44

quote:

Strategic Defence Initiative (what is this??? Is it the pentagon seen in the screenshots???).

SDI, you know 'Star Wars', prevents nuke missiles from bombing your cities in Civ2?

lord of the mark · May 2, 2001, 15:46

quote:

Originally posted by Zanzin on 05-02-2001 07:08 AM
This actually makes a lot of sense - it's kind of like a bonus wonder if you're way out in front...which, in real life, the US is (I know, it's the International space station, but we'd be kidding ourselves if we didn't admit that without America the ISS wouldn't happen)

[This message has been edited by Zanzin (edited May 02, 2001).]

Ok, if you're a demo, and have had a close contest for power with a commie, and you have won (peacefully) and the other guy has gone demo, and you are now easily Supreme, but he has lots of "einsteins" who specialized in military tech (see einstein specialization rules) and you think they might be tempted to design more weapons, or go off and work for fundie regimes which are dying to get rocketry, you build ISS and this provides employment to said einsteins.

Unfortunately i dont think ISS is being used to the max in this regard

.

LOTM

Admiral PJ · May 2, 2001, 21:12

How about Womans Suffrrage? This is the main Wonder I always tried to get, to get an easy to use republic, and make Democracy gov's a bit more feasible(without tonnes of micromanagement).

I think it should be a minor wonder, as every country in the real world has the Vote for woman, and gets it at different times.
I assume minor wonders can be built by all the countries, not just one.. thats my interpretation of them.

I wonder what should happen if a country catches a minor wonder then, if youhave 2 of them it'll be useless.. maybe youcan sell the second for lots of money !

Perhaps they could need some money support too, which would make sense for some. The hanging gardens need employees to water it and to maintain the irrigation systems.

I think the ISS could help you make peace and share research with other countries maybe.. perhaps help to build space components and starships in the future end of the game ( I hope they go into the future quite a bit, a lot will happen til the year 2020! )

Admiral Pete
Emperor of the Potatoe

Adm.Naismith · May 3, 2001, 00:05

quote:

Originally posted by Zanzin on 05-02-2001 07:08 AM
This actually makes a lot of sense - it's kind of like a bonus wonder if you're way out in front...which, in real life, the US is (I know, it's the International space station, but we'd be kidding ourselves if we didn't admit that without America the ISS wouldn't happen)
[This message has been edited by Zanzin (edited May 02, 2001).]

Sorry, but as long as I can smile for the joke, I really think you aren't fair: ISS has a lot of sense, much more that the Run to the Moon back to '60 and Kennedy President.
The problem is ISS it's so expensive that USA cannot afford to build it by themselves alone: they sure have all the tech, but can't spend all that money without some large budget hole. Same for former USSR (don't forget they kept the MIR alive, still 10 years more after the US Skylab fell of

so they know something about space).

Europe and Japan have most of tech but not enough money to start alone, so common effort is inevitable. I think this is a lesson we should have applied to the game race to build Alpha Centauri spaceship (named Unity, according to SMAC, and that's a very revealing name, isn't it?

).

I'll like to see the building of the Space Ship as an effort so great that you need to involve others Civ, and thid is out of ordinary allegiance: we all know Russia isn't anymore the worst USA enemy, but I bet isn' exactly a full ally like a SMAC Pact sense.

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Roman · May 3, 2001, 00:55

quote:

Originally posted by King Richard on 05-02-2001 07:35 AM
Well, forgive me for not reading every suggestion you think of!!! Do you have any clue on the rest of the wonders???

You misinterpreted the negative smilie in my post, King Richard. It was refering to how much I think ISS is a waste of money, rather than me suggesting that you should have read the thread. Sorry for the confusion.

Roman · May 3, 2001, 05:22

quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark on 05-02-2001 03:46 PM
Ok, if you're a demo, and have had a close contest for power with a commie, and you have won (peacefully) and the other guy has gone demo, and you are now easily Supreme, but he has lots of "einsteins" who specialized in military tech (see einstein specialization rules) and you think they might be tempted to design more weapons, or go off and work for fundie regimes which are dying to get rocketry, you build ISS and this provides employment to said einsteins.

Unfortunately i dont think ISS is being used to the max in this regard

.

LOTM

I see you share my opinions about the ISS.

tniem · May 8, 2001, 15:20

quote:

Originally posted by Admiral PJ on 05-02-2001 09:12 PM
How about Womans Suffrrage? This is the main Wonder I always tried to get, to get an easy to use republic, and make Democracy gov's a bit more feasible(without tonnes of micromanagement).

I think it should be a minor wonder, as every country in the real world has the Vote for woman, and gets it at different times.
I assume minor wonders can be built by all the countries, not just one.. thats my interpretation of them.

And what about minority suffrage? The end of slavery? Should every additional right that has been given be a wonder but instead a more complex social engineering screen where you control classes in your country. Being to strict would lead to rebellion.

quote:

Perhaps they could need some money support too, which would make sense for some. The hanging gardens need employees to water it and to maintain the irrigation systems.

But how would women's suffrage your main proposal for minor wonders cost money?

quote:

I think the ISS could help you make peace and share research with other countries maybe.. perhaps help to build space components and starships in the future end of the game ( I hope they go into the future quite a bit, a lot will happen til the year 2020! )

Good suggestion. The ISS should probably be used as a way of cementing your allies, but if you need to do that you have probably already won the game or are pretty close to doing so. Not sure ISS should be included in the game. So late that it wouldn't seem to have that much effect.

Admiral PJ · May 8, 2001, 15:44

Well womans suffrage might not be a wonder that would need upkeep, though it could if its seen as the giving(theres a better word for it) of the vote to the general population.. and could cost money to pay for the Elections, getting woman voted and organising voting booths for everyone..

Though I would too prefer a SMACish sociology screen, where Womans Vote
would be more advanced.. maybe creating less police control powers (-1 on policing- some negative value would be interesting anyway, though i'm for democracy generally ) but increasing efficiency and makign production/money creation greater.. where woman and the poor become more involved with society, all working.

I really think it should stay a minor wonder or even major, then afterwards you can choose thise sociology choice? its too important to be a mere sociological choice.

Proportional Democracy is better than the current form most elections use, this should be put in civ3.. doubling the effect of womans suffrage perhaps, giving a bonus to the economy and happiness? maybe not that much of a bonus..

I also hope the game end will be extended, otherwise slow games you don't always get all the techs and can't conquer everyone (you could probably do the ics method to win well to 2020 but thats not the only way to win)

As you can see from the length, now quantity of posts i prefer the lazy expansioin route

Admiral Pete