I got the Magazine! Preview, First Impressions, Screenshots forthcoming!

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by EnochF on 04-27-2001 12:53 PM And seven civs is enough for anybody.

Definitely not! As I said, though, the other pieces of news are so good that I might be able to swallow it, despite it being a major constraint on my scenario making.

[Gramphos]

Is that Unit-information working yet? Seems to be the same info as in the other map screen.

[Roman]

There seems to be a double heart icon (one blue, one red) on the domestic advisor screen. The values for it are exactly the same as for food production. What does this mean?

[EnochF]

Pardon. Seven civs is enough for anybody... except Roman, who has made, what, four separate posts in this thread alone complaining about it.

The terrain graphics here are much better. They're not spectacular, but they're nice. I don't look at these forests and think "ug-leeeee."

I notice they're using placeholder graphics from Civ II for the citizens.

And placeholder city names for the more obscure civs. (Kerplekistan?)

For me, the most encouraging notion in all this is that the game is still a work in progress. The team is still open to new ideas and new ways of implementing things. That means we may still have an opportunity to make our voices heard.

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by EnochF on 04-27-2001 01:12 PM Pardon. Seven civs is enough for anybody... except Roman, who has made, what, four separate posts in this thread alone complaining about it.

Thank you.

[belusa]

Thanks Snapcase for the info! What you're doing is great!

[JamesJKirk]

The 7 civs could more than likely be the major civs, or major powers or what have you while there're smaller insignificant nations scattered throughout the globe. At least that's what I'll probably hope

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by JamesJKirk on 04-27-2001 01:21 PM The 7 civs could more than likely be the major civs, or major powers or what have you while there're smaller insignificant nations scattered throughout the globe. At least that's what I'll probably hope

I wouldn't be so optimistic - the "minor civs" everybody is excited about are probably just these barbarian cities. I really hope Firaxis people change their mind on this limit and increase it to say, 15 civilizations per game.

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 04-27-2001 11:50 AM This is the worst piece of news I have heard about the game so far.

"If your children ask for a venomous snake to have as pet, would you as a parent give it to them?" (quote from the Bible, I think)

Please, dont interpret above as patronizing - instead, believe me then I say this:
Firaxis didnt choose max 7 simultaneously playing civs because they wanted to, but because they had to. Considering the multi-optional and open-ended nature of Civ-3, with its AI-burdening random maps amongst other things, they really didnt have any realistic choice. It really WAS an absolutely 100% necessary and correct decision to make.

Well, why not let the player choose for himself I here you say: Those who wanted to play against 16-32 simultaneously playing AI-civs could do so, while those who prefered only 4-6 AI-civs can choose that instead.
The problem here is that many very important heavyweight game-magazine reviewers would probably playtest this classic title with the new 32+ AI-civs feature right away - and base their game-reviewing AI-comments on above fact. And believe me, if they did; the AI response would be absolutely horrible. The AI in CTP-2 would be considered "quite strong" by comparison.

Please guys, you really dont know what your ask for if you stubbornly keep on demanding that this ridicules 32+ AI-civ idea should be included at all costs. I mean; at all costs??? No thanks!

The main "problem" is that Civ-3 isnt (and can never be) primarily a hotseat-game, exclusively developed for 16+ or even 32+ simultaneously playing human civers. If it where, the problem would "only" circled around the loong, looong; yes really loooong waiting turns.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited April 27, 2001).]

[jglidewell]

quote: Originally posted by EnochF on 04-27-2001 01:12 PM The terrain graphics here are much better. They're not spectacular, but they're nice. I don't look at these forests and think "ug-leeeee."

Yes way better than any other. There is now a hint of a trunk. Perhaps now a hint of height would help. Making a tiled view of a forest and getting it right is very difficult.

[Roman]

Well Ralf, they could at least enable more civs through the text files, as Ctp2 did. That would stop the negative aspects which you describe, yet keep many of us wanting a 15 civilization limit placated. It would also be much better for scenario design.

[The diplomat]

Snapcase, you are our hero!

the domestic screen is amazing. I love it. it seems to present all the info in a very organized clean way.
I like the detailed info about where your income and costs are coming from. You can get tribute from other civs, you can get interests.
I am glad that there is only sliders for luxury and science. The tax rate slider is probably on a different screen. But this is better because it means that luxury and science is coming from taxes not the surplus. In civ2, your luxury and science actually came from the surplus after taxes. this was not quite accurate. The science and luxury should come from taxes which seems to be in civ3. good.

About only having 7 civs. I think 7 is enough. The more civs in the game, the more strain on the AI. Th number of civs also puts more strain on your computer processor. Having more than 7 civs is NOT realistic, people!

7 civs is enough.

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 04-27-2001 01:30 PM Well Ralf, they could at least enable more civs through the text files, as Ctp2 did.

Well, maybe it IS possible to do that, although Firaxis cannot mention anything about it officially. We havent all cards on the table yet.

O-o-kay, last installment of info, and it's a biggie (I should really split it up, but hey.)

(One thing I missed earlier- The Space Race is still in. In case anyone doubted that.)

New info on... Trade, Resources, Culture

Resources: "When you look at the map now, you don't see that many resources. That's because they don't appear until you've researched the technology that needs them. For example, you can't see iron until you've researched iron working. And you might already have some, but it might be somewhere else.

"What we tried to do is clump the stuff. It's not spread evenly over the map. The idea is that one player can corner the market on, say, iron and he becomes a powerbroker in the game. The same thing happens with uranium, so your diplomatic relations become really important. You definately want to have friends that have the stuff you need so that you can trade with them. If not the only way to get the stuff is to attack people.

"By the time you get to the end of the game you really needto have coal, iron, oil and rubber otherwise you can't build anything. The way you develop a civilization, to a large extent, depends on where you start the game and what kind of resources you have available. If you start in an area that has iron you're in good shape at the beginning, but later on in the game iron is not enough."

Trade: You can trade in Luxuries, and resources. Luxuries goods trade is vital to keep happiness up, and resource trade (as you can see above) will be exceptionally important. Keeping peace will be more important than before, because you need a constant supply of resources to build your units. Complex diplomatic treaties and trade agreements can be arranged.

Culture: Accumulated by long-time cultural city improvements (as in last preview). Three effects:

(a) In diplomacy, a high culture rating will make other civs admire you more, and positive outcomes are more likely as a result.

(b) A high culture rating will literally expand your borders, the Greater your civilization the larger it will become.

(c) The aforementioned effect of pacifying newly conquered cities. Cities can now resist in a variety of fun and interesting ways; citizens can refuse to work, lower the defense value of the city, or revolt and rejoin their original civ.

That's all, folks. If there's a great demand I can also scan in the blurred "Baltimore" screenshot from the CGW preview in greater detail...

[EnochF]

Re: the stadium. My thought is that these graphics represent "ancient" and "modern" pictures of the same improvement. So, what in ancient times would be a "Granary," in modern times would be a sort of farm silo. What in ancient times would be a "Colosseum," in modern times would be a stadium of some kind.

It's a forward-thinking approach. If you recall, Civ II had a very modern looking Granary, and it looked terribly out of place in ancient cities. (Y'know, for those of us who didn't get the Pyramids.) On the other hand, if I build a Colosseum in a city, I wouldn't necessary tear it down to make way for a stadium in the modern era. So maybe the way to go here is to make all Colosseums built in the modern era appear as stadiums, while the old Colosseums remain as they are. But Granaries automatically update to become silos. And perhaps Temples, if they are built in the modern era, would appear as churches, but the old Temples in the historic cities don't change. But Marketplaces automatically update to become modern shopping plazas or malls or something. And hey, maybe the more "old" Temples and Colosseums and Libraries you have in modern times, the more Culture points you have...

[Ralf]

One thing im curious about:
How do the player choose/rearrange from which city-area tiles to harvest from? By point-clicking directly on the main map? And where are the harvested tile-resources? (equivalent to foods, trade, shields). I dont see that many on the pre-released screenshots. Some clarifications needed.

[The diplomat]

About the Domestic screen, is "fluff" really a tech advance or just a place holder? I sure hope it is not an actual tech advance.

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat on 04-27-2001 02:21 PM About the Domestic screen, is "fluff" really a tech advance or just a place holder? I sure hope it is not an actual tech advance.

The discovery of Fluff by german scientist Hans Otto von Unterhosen in 1476 heralded a new era of discovery in the textile logistics field. Although the discovery only earned von Unterhosen a minor research position in Hamburg, its implications spelled the end of the Hanseatic states as a major power, and was probably the main reason that Germany entered the renaissance. Without Fluff, Martin Luther's 99 theses would never have been written.

Today's industry bears heavy debt to von Unterhosen's groundbreaking work, not only because it inspired a whole new era of german science but also because the processes used by von Unterhosen remain largely the same to this date, despite modern mechanical and electrolytical methods.

[jordanz19]

In the city viwe I see the Pentagon outside the city walls? That is just confusing. Since there is only a few improvements, how does the Pentagon get built that early?

[EnochF]

LOL Snapcase.

Reminds me of the "fluff" in the Infocom Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy text game.

quote: Fluff is interesting stuff: a deadly poison on Bodega Minor, the diet staple of Frazelon V, the unit of currency on the moons of the Blurfoid System, and the major crop of the laundry supplies planet, Blastus III. One ancient legend claims that four pieces of fluff lie scattered around the Galaxy: each forming one quarter of the seedling of a tree with amazing properties, the sole survivor of the tropical planet Fuzzbol (Footnote 8). The ultimate source of fluff is still a mystery, with the scientific community divided between the Big Lint Bang theory and the White Lint Hole theory. (Footnote 8, should you care to check, informs you that it's not much of a legend really.)

(That icon at the top is me wearing my Joo Janta Peril-Sensitive Sunglasses. - -)
[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Stefu]

Hmfh. A mixed bag of feelings, I have. It's, of course, always good to find out more, but seven civs got me little worried. Does this mean we can only use seven civs in scenarios? Because that might lead to unhistorical oddities all over again.

Armies, hmm, seem to me like mobile forts. I liked the CtP model, and hoped Firaxis would implement something like it, only modified. Still, seeing that armies are in is absolute plus.

I want lots of new wonders, not just 'couple' of them! I think it might be seven new wonders, but we already have found out that The Internet and Grand Canal will be some of them. What else will there be?

Civ-specific units. I thought Firaxis listened to the people. (If the poll on Civ-specific units ended up with people being pro-specifics, then they are listening to people. I might not like it, but I'll acquiesce.)

Barbarians sounds neato!

All in all, I'm getting these little demons on my shoulders saying that Civ3 might *not* be the game of century after all. *Falls to ground from blasphemy*

Found in one of the picture blurbs (I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, single quote to indicate journalists interpretation rather than verbatim Jeff Briggs): 'Borders have an even greater role to play in Civilization 3 than in Alpha Centauri. Armed units that cross your border without prior consent run the risk of starting a war.' (My italics)

Prior consent, eh?

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Ceci n'est pas Snapcase on 04-27-2001 04:00 PM Prior consent, eh?

We allready knew there would be a treaty of passage (that information was uploaded to the webpage just one day after I sugested it in a thread, it is probably only a coincidence but I like to think that they listened to me ).

[Ilkuul]

Hoy, what happened???! I'd just finished saving all the images and printing them out, when suddenly they've disappeared from their original posts and been replaced by these new ones with 'Apolyton' and 'PCGameplay' all over them! And sorry to say, but after downloading the replacement city view pic and printing it out, its quality is not as good as the original (at least on my printer)!

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by jordanz19 on 04-27-2001 02:49 PM In the city viwe I see the Pentagon outside the city walls? That is just confusing. Since there is only a few improvements, how does the Pentagon get built that early?

I think you're getting confused by the shape. It's actually a stadium (modern equivalent of a colosseum) - see earlier posts in this thread.

Great work, Snapcase! I'm off to see if I can get a copy of the magazine at my local newsagent tomorrow - but you're keeping me going in the meantime!

In the Domestic Advisor screen, it's really good to have the Civ2 Tax Rate screen combined with the City Status screen - this is a big improvement. All information conveniently displayed in one place. I like it.

The main map view is very similar to the CGW one - but I also wonder about the red circle around Detroit: just indicating that it's selected?

The info on trade, resources and culture is fascinating. Sounds as tho' you'll have to be something of an all-rounder to succeed at Civ3. No more unalloyed militarism or perfectionism. Of course I know the response to that is that pure militarism/perfectionism didn't succeed in Civ2 either! - and I agree; I just hope that the effort that's obviously gone into preventing 'single-minded' approaches to the game (like bloodlust and ICS), won't at the same time stifle different styles of play, forcing everybody into the same mould if they want to have any success at the game...

But that's too early to tell. By and large everything I've read and seen here is tremendously encouraging. Thank you, Snapcase!

[Cyberbugs]

My opinion is that seven civs per game *is* enough, for at least most people.

What I am really worried about though, is wheather the "stacked combat" will be like in CTP2, with archers and cannons supporting your infantry, or just a mass of units replacing eachother after dying.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

It seems that PC gaming has graphics from different developement phases of the game. The ones that they showed on their website a few days ago had different irrigation tile improvements.

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

[EnochF]

I also like the new variety in the shapes of rivers and roads.

One minor beef, though, is that the roads and rivers are a little hard to see. I'd suggest making the roads a little wider and dark gray, to contrast with the greens and yellows of the landscape. (Mountains are apparently tinged with red and orange, so dark gray roads should contrast just fine.) I'd also suggest making the rivers a little wider, if possible, and maybe a little brighter. We don't want rivers becoming nearly invisible under a tile of irrigation.

*cough* beta-tester *cough*

[Skeeve]

I must agree with Mr. Roman.
7 Civs: been there done that. I want at least 15.
Come on... everyone must have above a 500MHZ machine by now! Surely that can handle it.
15 is not much to ask. Even CTP2 works with 15... although it does get a tad slow near the end-game, I'll give ya that. (I won't mention the vegetable intelligence of the AI, though)


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My reach exceeds my grasp!