I got the Magazine! Preview, First Impressions, Screenshots forthcoming!

[Lawrence of Arabia]

We know that there are 7 major civs, but has Firaxis said anything about minor civs? And the barbarians have cities now, so that could counter-balance the lack of major civs. maybe when you take a barbarian city, you get some sort of gold like 50 or something.

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

[ASHBERY76]

Only seven civs what are they thinking, i think moo3's the game im
looking foward to most now.

Phases of the game or phaes of game development? In fact, looking at it again, the tiles are completely different in the three graphics screenshots showing map tiles in the magazine (The Baltimore Screenshot in the previous preview, plus these two).

• The forest tiles are different, flecks of mossy nonsense in the Washington Screenshot, Big, dense leafy things in the Baltimore screenshot, and slighty less mossy nonsense in the Detroit screenshot. The corresponding Jungle tiles are also different.
  
• The Irrigation tiles are different in all three, with those Teal streaks in Washington, and two different amounts of cyan canal irrigation in Detroit and Balitmore.
  
• The road tiles are different (this might push for an era hypothesis, actually), with squiggly roads in Washington, straight dirt roads in Detroit, and modern asphalt roads in Baltimore.

One thing I can't make heads or tails of now that I see the Baltimore screenshot clearly is why some roads and structures and irrigation tiles and workers are faded out while others can be seen clearly. Also, why is there no city in that screenshot? Is the city radius not connected to the city? What are there small houses (they look like Size one roman cities) up in the hills? Why are all improvements listed twice? And who the hell is Queen Amanda of the Wise Pandas?

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Ilkuul on 04-27-2001 04:49 PM I think you're getting confused by the shape. It's actually a stadium (modern equivalent of a colosseum) - see earlier posts in this thread.

My opinion: no way!
Inside city walls= city buildings
Outside city walls=Wonders

quote: The main map view is very similar to the CGW one - but I also wonder about the red circle around Detroit: just indicating that it's selected?

ZoC of the Horse mounted Unit is another option, IMHO, but a "rounded" city area is another, too.

[Ilkuul]

You have a point there about Wonders being outside the walls...

But I have another question: In both this and the CGW city view screenshots, it's been a coastal city. I do hope we aren't going to see the same view and the same coastline for inland cities as well!

[venus]

ah, now that's a decent screenshot. whew, i was worried that ugly one they had on the PC Gamer website was the latest one.

my only major gripe: borders. it looks like they're only the size of the city radius. that bites. :| i think SMAC's system of border expansion was well implemented. it always gave me very logical and effective borders.

[Kull]

"Seven Civs" Bah!!!!

Yes, adding civs probably has an impact on turn length and AI competence, so go ahead and keep them at seven for the basic game. But if they don't give scenario designers the option to raise the number (even 10 would be acceptable), than this will be a MAJOR disappointment. More like Civ2.5 than Civ3.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The picts on the website have a lot brighter terrain than the ones in the magazine. Is this just due to the scanning, or is it really like this?

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

[Chris 62]

Hey snap, instead of another peice of info on how freakin good it is, could we have some clarifacation on the number of civilizations in the game?!!? This a major concern to a lot of us, including the entire Scenario League, and a lot of Scenario Designers! If the number is locked in at 7, it is a major disapointment to a lot of us, and my faith in civ-3 will have hit an all time low. Please give us more info on this point.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[yin26]

quote: There are two types of nuclear weapons. We have ICBMs that can hit anything on the map (yin26, Infinate missile range, eh - transcribers comment)

Hmmm. All I can say is that there MUST be a viable defense, of course, otherwise the game is already ruined without question. But with a balanced defense available, this should be fine.

[- Groucho -]

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 04-27-2001 09:43 PM Hmmm. All I can say is that there MUST be a viable defense, of course, otherwise the game is already ruined without question. But with a balanced defense available, this should be fine.

Huh? What would that viable defence be, Yin? In real life the US, Russia, Britain, Japan and France all have the tech to build ICBMs that can hit anything on the planet and no one has a defense. Does that mean life isn't worth living?

Of course not. And the game isn't ruined either. In fact if ICBMs came along at the exact same time as a defense to them I would think the game was flawed as it is far easier to build a decent ICBM attack system than to build a defense to one.

[Lord_Davinator]

great great news. Civ3 seems to be dancing to our tune.


[This message has been edited by Lord_Davinator (edited April 27, 2001).]

[MrFun]

Only seven civilizations -- how boring.

I know, I know -- there are minor civilizations in addition to those seven main civilizations. Well, whooopppeee!

I know, I know -- we cannot add too many civilizations in one game because that would strain the AI. So let's be reasonable then -- let's not set it at a mere 7, and not skyrocket the number up to 20.

I think Firaxis should seriously reconsider the maximum number of civilizations to CHOOSE from for every new game from 16 to 25, and set the maximum number of civilizations IN each game from 7 to at least 12.

But all the rest of it sounds great!

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"I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle, making exceptions to it -- where will it stop? If one man says it does not mean a Negro, why does not another say it does not mean some other man?"
-- Abraham Lincoln's quote, and his anti-racist ideals

[Roman]

I love the way in that nukes are going to be implemented. ICBMs with unlimited range and tactical nukes. Yupeee!!

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by Ceci n'est pas Snapcase on 04-27-2001 09:57 AM Jeff Briggs: "Wonders of the World are as important as ever. We have all the Civ2 ones, a couple of new ones, some that are old and function in new ways and a brand new set that we call "small wonders". While you can only constuct one of each Wonder of the World, small wonders can be built by every civilization, such as the Strategic Defense Initiative, Apollo Program and Manhattan Project.

Hurray to "big" and "small" wonders!

quote: The Great Canal is one of the new Wonders in the game. When you build that, you can chose a place on the map and connect two oceans, so it's like the Panama Canal. We also have the Great Wall, which is an old wonder, but now you can chose a section of your border and you get a wall that is really hard for someone to get through.

IMO, this is an excellent way to implement wonders.

[Harlan]

I've haven't been following Civ3 too closely. Looks like I picked a good time to stumble by the Civ3 section, with all these new revelations. The game is looking really promising.

I'm especially jazzed about the way trade appears to be shaping up. Better than any model so far. What I really like are the notions that you need certain goods to build something, and that trade goods don't appear until you get the right technology. What a great idea! Things like coal or oil were nearly completely useless until people figured out what to do with them.

The whole culture concept sounds great, too. I'd love to find out more about that. Things like the Great Wall and Great Canal sound just too cool to be believed.

Downers: 7 civs max?!?!? What the hey? That is SO 1994 era- this is 2001! Can't they at least expand that for scenarios? What really worries me is the number 7, since that plus barbarians is 8, and that's one of those computer efficiency numbers, like 256. In Civ2, a max of 8 was deeply hard wired in the game, and impossible to change. That would be tragic if its the case in Civ3, that not only is it only 7, but there's absolutely no way to increase it.

I think we need a poll on that- how many people think 7 civs is not enough? Maybe there's still time to change that, if enough people speak out. Having only 16 different civs isn't such a big deal, since presumably people can add more. Its the hard wired limits that are the killers. One doesn't need 32 civs or whatever, but even a couple more would make a major difference for scenario making.

Other downer: I worry a bit about the army concept. First off, that it comes so late (with the exception of leaders). Maybe a better idea would be have it from the beginning, or close to, but leaders and later technologies allow one to increase the size of the army. For instance, in ancient times you could have an army of 4, but with a leader they could be a size of 8. The whole thing of having only one unit fight at a time, and if you win the entire opposing army dies, is a major flaw of Civ2 and shouldn't be repeated in the pre-nationalism phase of Civ3.

Secondly, the way armies are described, I don't see why one would need to have a balanced force. For instance, why use artillery, tanks and infantry- in the current situation you could just have a big pile of tanks. Artillery plus something else I can see needing, for the bombarding capability (good thing to steal from CTP, by the way). But what good would having a mix of infantry and armor be? The game would lose a lot if one could just have a favorite unit and churn it out in droves, instead of building well balanced forces.

[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Roman]

Hmm, the screen seems to be a city view. I thought the previous preview said city view was "out".

if this isnt a city view, i dont what it is

[Roman]

I agree, Mark. Perhaps what the previous preview meant was that the city screen was "out", but it also clearly showed the city screen on one of the screenshots, so now I am confused.

[jglidewell]

For anyone interested here is the response from PC Gameplay I got for availability in the US,

'If you live near the Canadian border, you can try Chapters'

[Skeeve]

Wow, really great news.
I'm a little miffed about playing against only 7 civs. But that's forgiveable if the AI is actually smart. (After playing CTP2, I guess the AI for Atari's "Space-Invaders" would seem smart).

EDIT: I particularly like the Great Canal & Great Wall Wonders!
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My reach exceeds my grasp!
[This message has been edited by Skeeve (edited April 27, 2001).]

[EnochF]

But... one of the screenshots from the last previous was a city view. Hello? McFly!.

And seven civs is enough for anybody.

My God, the news is good all round! Somebody get me a towel...

Hey, if anybody from the team is listening: Here's what to do with the Internet wonder. It should provide a science bonus, but not just for the host civilization; it applies to every civilization that has the "Computers" advance. Also, it should halve the research cost of previously-discovered techs for civs with "Computers." So, if somebody with Computers has discovered Labor Union, that makes it easier for all computerized nations to discover it. (The Internet should make the late game for the harder levels like Deity a little bit easier for the human player, incidentally.)

I love the Great Wall! I love the Great Canal!

I can only hope that they've implemented a "World's Greatest" feature... (see The List)

[Gramphos]

It was a screenshot of a city view in the CGW-prview too, but it had roads and houses. This has only improvements.

What is that pentagon up to the right (where the Lighthouse was in CGW)?
Is ther some sort of Stadium in the City?

[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Russian King]

I like the new ingame screen MUCH better than the one before , the units dont have the shield yet but at least those horrible circles are rid of. And irrigation is MUCH improves . Roads are less confusing ill buy the game if they could stand out a bit more, other wise PLEASE FIRAXIS make the panel, and thicker city names otherwise this is the best and most relistic looking map for civ i've ever seen .

I wonder what that circle around the unreadable city thats building pyramids is . i also like the little mousehole cave in the mountain .

ummm... the nuke: is it more powerful? like a 2 sqare radius, and can FIRAXIS please make a screenshot of the nuke blowing up .

[Gramphos]

quote: Originally posted by Russian King on 04-28-2001 01:17 AM I wonder what that circle around the unreadable city thats building pyramids is . i also like the little mousehole cave in the mountain .

I think it's the range the active cavalry unit in the city can see. (The Unit-information is not working yet.)

[This message has been edited by vgriph (edited April 28, 2001).]

[King Richard]

Have any of you noticed how small maps you can be playing on? It looks incredibly small!

Good news all the way! Well, nearly... The number of civs is too small! I'm not that conserned with only 7 civs at the same time (except for scenarios), but I would like to choose from a great number of civs! It was mentioned that there will be 16 civs in civ3. The following are in: Germans, Russians, Chinese, English, Zulus, Americans and Romans. Then there should be 9 more. The nine should be; Indians, Mongols, French, Persians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Aztecs (Mexicas), Greeks, Spanish. This means that the Celts, Vikings, Carthagians, Japanese and Siux are out! I don't think we're gonna see any new arrivals, except perhaps some minor civs (if these aren't the barbarian cities?).

I love the idea of minor/mayor wonders! I just hope that the minor ones is logical: Great canal, Internet, Great wall (ok, so there's only one, but there could be more...), manhattan project etc. I hope they will include Hollywood! I love the idea of building a "TV/Movie-monopoly" (well, as long as it lasts. It should be a minor wonder!).

The borders shown in the screenshots are probably this small because it is early in the game and there isn't too much culture around? I think that borders are the best thing about the new game anyway, so I will not be disappointed!

When it comes to the city-screen, it looks like they've just thrown in some buildings from different ages. Since there isn't any houses in the city, it looks fabricated. By the way; the stadium next to the colluseum is most likely a roman/greek stadium. The colluseum is really an arena... They had both in athens/rome!

I hope that the maps will look more like SMAC! The screenshots we've got so far seems too flat, don't you think? Well, that's my opinion... Love the idea of resources only appearing when you have an advance! This will make any piece of land interesting to colonize (perhaps there will be something useful there?).

So, we're getting special-units for each civ! Does this mean that you can't bribe those units? Will some civs be more useful in the early ages, and some in the modern times (early-Zulus, Modern-Americans)? Like everything else, though!

Hey, is there anything else in the preview??? I've been drooling for an hour now!!!

[King Richard]

Do you know if the council is in? I loved the fights between them in civ2... How about the palace? Will we see the palace grow in the capitol, or somewhere else? It would be cool if the palace grew inside the city. I hope that you can't sell buildings anymore, or switch from building one building with another. If someone finish the pyramids before you, it's silly that you can start building another wonder without starting from scratch. Also that you can sell a building (who's buying??? Where does it go???). It would be better if you can turn the maintenance off if you can't afford it (then the building will become a ruin after a while). When you feel you have the cash to maintain it again, you'll turn the maintenance on, and it will start to function in half the time it would normally take to build the building. What do you think? Do you know if any of this is in the game? Damn, I'll have to buy the magazine ASAP!!!

[Harlan]

I'm quite surprised to hear that all the Civ2 wonders will be back, cos some were clunkers IMHO. Not so much the functions, which will often be changed I imagine, but what they are.

In some cases, obviously the Civ2 team started with a person they wanted to have a wonder about, and invented a fictious building to go along with it, for instance:

Copernicus' Observatory: He never had an observatory associated with him, and in fact bounced all over Europe, living in Italy, Germany, Poland, etc...

JS Bach's Cathedral: What is this supposed to be? Has anyone figured out what cathedral is associated with Bach?

Adam Smith's Trading Co.: Smith was an academic who wrote books, he never had a trading company.

Sun Tzu's War Academy: Again, no such thing. No one is even very sure what town he lived in or came from.

Isaac Newton's College: Is this supposed to be Cambridge? In no way is that "his" college, he's just one of many famous or non people who worked there.

Marco Polo's Embassy: He had some great journeys, but never anything remotely like an embassy. The world didn't even HAVE embassies in the 1300's! (though there were ambassadors)

With so many great real wonders to pick from, why use these wierd things again? I've got nothing against abstract wonders, but why make up fake buildings to go along with them? Civ2 had Women's Sufferage, not the Women's Sufferage Planning Room. And there's Darwin's Voyage, not The Building Darwin Wrote the Origin of Species In!

Why not rename these things to something slightly better, like Marco Polo's Journey, or Isaac Newton's Principia, or Sun Tzu's Art of War?

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My other thought is regarding nuclear warfare, since it was stated there was some uncertainty concerning that. CTP also wanted to have nuclear war be something that was a passing phase rather than an endgame, but they went about it the wrong way. They made SDI come ridiculously early (you could get it before getting Nukes!), and 100% effective. Lame. 50+ years after Hiroshima, and uncounted billions in research, SDI is still way off from being reality, and no way will it ever be 100% effective.

Much better to do it like real life: have MAD (Mutually Assurred Destruction). Model some serious nuclear winter and radiation fallout, and using too many nukes becomes pretty suicidal. As CTP2 does, allow a country's ICBMs to be launched if that country is attacked, immediately, even though it isn't their turn yet. That's a serious deterrent, and very realistic. Finally, program the AIs so that, the more nukes in the game, the less likely they'll be to actually want to launch them.

This way, the first decade or so the first civ gets nukes, some may be used, but as time goes on it gets increasingly unlikely, just cos its so powerful. But still, there's always the chance some civ will get dumb or desperate, so you have to have them, just in case. Put SDI in its proper place, which is decades later, if it shows up at all.