On leaders, etc...

Kilroy_Alpha · May 12, 2002, 06:51

Originally posted at CivFanatics.

I know this topic has been discussed to death. And, I realize that any discussion on this topic will have little effect on Civ3 in the near term (and perhaps never). However I have come up with I scheme that I think just about everyone would enjoy, and I hope inspires some people working on future expansions. Here goes:

First of all, something needs to be done about the fact that leaders can only be generated though conquest. So, there needs to be other ways to generate leaders. For each civilization trait, there should be a corresponding way to generate a leader (although, ALL civs should be able to generate every kind of leaders).

(Expansionist method) When you aquire a city through cultural assimilation, a leader may appear in that city. An expansionist civ has a 100% chance of generating a leader this way, while others civs have a 50% chance.
(Militaristic method) Same as always, although I'm also going to propose that leaders generated through different methods have different attributes. More on this in a moment.
(Religious method) Because religious cultures usually have a higher culture rating than other civs, they are more likely to assimilate nearby cities. So this method would be similar to the expansionist method, however remember that leaders generated in different manners will have different attributes.

The above methods describe the leader types that I consider to be aquired through conquest of some form, whether it be militaristic or cultural. The following leaders are aquired through more peaceful methods:

(Scientific method) Every time you complete research on an advance that no other civ has yet discovered, you may generate a leader in one of your cities, probably the one with the highest research rating. This may need a little work since, if you're behind in the tech race, you'll never get a leader of this type.
(Commercial method) Whenever you aquire a resource from a foreign civilization, you may generate a leader in one of your cities with a high commerce rating. If trade pacts are ever introduced, this could also be a good way to generate a leader by the commercial method.
(Industrial method) Occasionally, one of your workers will spontaneously change into a leader. This way, the more workers you produce, the more likely you are to generate this type of leader.

Let me note once more, that ALL civs should have the ability to generate any leader type. However a civ with, for example, the industrious trait, will be more likely to have its workers change into leaders. Same goes for all the other civ traits.

Now, it would be quite boring, not to mention very pointless, if after generating all these different leaders, you had the same options concerning what to do with them. What I have in mind will associate different leaders with different buildings - but now I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me tackle military leaders first, since out of all the types this one is the most unique:

(Military leaders) The only kind of leader capable of building an army. Because I would like to see armies more frequently in civ3, this leader should be much easier to generate than the leaders currently in civ3. To maintain balance, however, this leader should NOT be capable of rushing improvements of any kind.

All the other leaders are going to be used to rush certain wonders. Any leader can contribute to any wonder project. However, leaders whose attributes do not match that of the wonder being built (for example a commercially-generated leader rushing the Sistine Chapel), will only be able to donate shields equal to half the number of shields remaining - essentially halving the time it takes to complete a wonder. Leaders generated in a manner matching the wonder being rushed (a commercial leader rushing Adam Smith's Trading Co, or an expansionist leader rushing the Forbidden Palace), will complete the wonder on the next turn (like they do now).

You may notice that there is one last piece of the puzzle remaining. Militaristic wonders will not be able to be rushed by the next turn. To resolve this I propose that military leaders take on two types. Type 1, the type described above, will be a fairly common leader only capable of building armies. Type 2, generated through the same method as type 1 but much more rare, will be like the other leaders (it would rush Sun Tzu's AoW in one turn but only halve the time it takes to complete other wonders).

I have other ideas concerning what leaders may be able to do, but I'd like some input on what I've already said first. Have at it!

notyoueither · May 12, 2002, 07:28

Tell me again why non-militaristic civs need the extra advantages for leaders without the risks and costs of war. ???

It's not like nobody else can get them. They can. But militaristic civs will never get a bonus other than the quick promotions and hence the greater likelihood of leaders. BTW. You can go entire games as militaristic and get maybe 2 or 3 leaders. How consequencial is that compared to quick revolutions or cheap libraries and 4 free techs or...

OK! Maybe militaristic and leaders are the be all and end all of the game. But you aren't going to fix it by giving everyone else enhanced effects while they stay, well... militaristic. If you handed out leaders like candy for building workers, what would be the advantage of being militaristic?

Can we start to focus on why the militaristic civs should get research advantages for every city they conquer? Or a burst of gold for every worker they capture? How about the Romans or the Japanese get a leader every time they look side-ways at another civ. That would be good.

nato · May 12, 2002, 08:31

Quote:

BTW. You can go entire games as militaristic and get maybe 2 or 3 leaders.

Or you can be like me and not get any! I'm STILL waiting for one and I've been at nonstop war for half the game

Seriously, I'm starting to regard militaristic as a gamble choice, like expansionistic. Expansionistic you gamble that you will get a lot of huts to work your bonus on ... militaristic you gamble that you will get a lot of leaders.

But I haven't been getting any leaders. I am very very close to quitting the Japanese and getting a civ trait I KNOW I will get the bonus for.

edit: ooh that was kind of off topic ... sorry Kilroy, guess I've been thinking about not getting leaders lately ...

Actually I really like your ideas about different types of leaders. I think that is very close to what they originally wanted to do, but ran out of time. So they stuck the rush build feature onto military leaders, instead of making "great builder leaders", and like you point out, it doesn't work too great.

However NYE has a great point that then you could just not risk war and be assured of leaders. OTOH, war is too powerful compared to building right now (I think... a lot of ppl seem to feel you have to go to war to do well) so maybe that would balance things out towards the builders a little.

Sounds great, but it might be too big a change to hope for.

Flanker · May 12, 2002, 13:13

Just a thought, all these leaders able to rush-build wonders might lead to almost every wonder would be possible to build in only one turn or two. That would lower the prestige of building great wonders, which really should take a lot of time to complete. A solution would be to just have leaders to give say, 100 extra shields or so, to the wonder project, but they wouldn´t complete it (would be more like civ II caravans). I also think these leaders should have some other uses more than rushing wonders. Giving extras to the city they are located in for example.

Kilroy_Alpha · May 12, 2002, 14:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Flanker
Just a thought, all these leaders able to rush-build wonders might lead to almost every wonder would be possible to build in only one turn or two.

Sorry I forgot to address this. While the types of leaders you can acquire will increase, the total number of leaders you get in every game should stay about the same (disregarding the type 1 military leader). I say "about the same" because the total number SHOULD increase a little, sense leaders have become slightly less powerful (not being able to rush a wonder).

nye: Most people seem to be concerned that the game currently favors warmongers too much as it is. I'm one of them, and I don't see any problem with limiting the effectiveness of constant warmaking. Besides, the benefit of war should be the territory and resources you acquire, not all the things you can build because of leaders you generate.