Is Civ-3 game-interface with SKINS a good idea?

Ralf · January 13, 2001, 01:26

This is a topic that has been up before, but because there are so many newbies here, i re-post a shorter clean-write of an earlier post here:

What about MS Windows main-game interface-look, with some customized tastefully classy skins, ranging from no skin (bare-bone Windows), Firaxis Civ-3 standard skin-choice(s), marble, woody, metallic, with many more to come from artistically talented civ-3 players around the world. Nothing that drastic; positions, screens and functions remains unchanged under the surface. Only superficial cosmetic changes, like colours, patterns, styles, shapes and such. Click Neoplanet Internet Explorer skins for some inspiration, but remember: Neoplanet is third party - Firaxis is in-house, meaning source-code access = ideally integrated implemenation.

Wood-buttons or shiny metallic ones? For some people, designing these skin-frameworks could be a mini-hobby in itself. Also remember, the whole thing is completely bypassable, if you prefer that - its up to you.

Ralf · January 13, 2001, 18:12

quote:

Originally posted by JosefGiven on 01-13-2001 12:07 PM
Also agree that the windows should be fully customisable, and I concur that a mini sub-group of customisation enthusiasts will emerge, churning out new window skins with relish!

Glad you like the concept!

Frankly, i am a little surprised that not more Apolyton civers are interested enough to comment this topic.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 13, 2001).]

Adm.Naismith · January 13, 2001, 21:34

Skin are nice, but you can't tweak a bit the general interface (position, button, etc.) it quickly become so cosmetic you don't care anymore.

I checked plenty of Winamp skins, and I used to waste quite a bunch of HD collecting them. The sad true is that more often than not I gained no better Winamp use fiddling with its skin.

Skins can help with the general look&feel of the game, but they aren't very important IMHO. Now that is "skin time", it appear no one product can be good without skin, but I think they can be worthy packaging some particular scenario more than into the basic game.

Again, I can agree with the concept, but as a secondary "touch" on a game already well balanced and tested.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

JosefGiven · January 14, 2001, 01:07

What a splendid idea!

I think this is one of the reasons Civ II made you feel like you were running a real empire, because you were playing the game from your desktop. Perhaps this is why SMAC and CTP just feel like computer games...?

I agree that the best interface for Civ III is via the tried-and-tested Windows formula. Perhaps the default pattern should be some sort of neo-classical Greek style affair - graceful columns up the sides of the windows, that sort of thing.

Also agree that the windows should be fully customisable, and I concur that a mini sub-group of customisation enthusiasts will emerge, churning out new window skins with relish!

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Josef Given
josefgiven@hotmail.com

Ralf · January 14, 2001, 05:37

quote:

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 01-13-2001 08:34 PM
Skin are nice, but you can't tweak a bit the general interface (position, button, etc.) it quickly become so cosmetic you don't care anymore.

Well, what do you suggest then? What can be done with skins realistically?

Also, above is your perception of it. I think this is one of those little tweaks they can do, that can only generate mostly positive response from game-magazine reviewers and players. Some dont care of course, but im having a hard time imagine that someone would be directly negative about it.

quote:

Again, I can agree with the concept, but as a secondary "touch" on a game already well balanced and tested.

That a given. Of course Firaxis must concentrate on a well-balanced and tested game first and foremost. But, do you really think this idea takes that much of time and resources to implement?
If thats a problem, they can comply themselves with bare-bone Windows, with only 1-2 skins. As long there is support for more skins.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 14, 2001).]

January 14, 2001, 06:03

I like it!

Maybe you could have a specific skin per civ, too. And maybe the skins could change over time. For example, first you have a stony type one, then a marble, greek style one, then a castle type one, then a brick one and then a metallic/concrete one and maybe even a glass one and finally a really shiny one..

I'm getting carried away here...

Anyway, I like the idea!!

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@shivamail.com
Web: http://www.shivamail.com
ICQ: 17719980

Ralf · January 14, 2001, 06:49

quote:

Originally posted by Sir Shiva on 01-14-2001 05:03 AM
Maybe you could have a specific skin per civ, too. And maybe the skins could change over time.

Hey, thats nice ideas!

As i said before: they must concentrate on making a good well-balanced game first and foremost. But, why not at least creating the software "hooks" needed to achieve those things you are suggesting, and others?

They can then always come back later, then its time to release scenario addon-packs; and create some added skins as well - one for each scenario, perhaps.

Ralf · January 14, 2001, 18:50

This is my last ditch effort on this topic. If theres anyone who like it, then add your vote now.

Dan Mahaga quote: "I don't disagree with you, and this idea has been tossed around in the office, but let's try to keep this thread specifically on-topic regarding editor functionality." (the Civ3 editing tools thread).

It seems to me that this idea still is "hanging in the air" (well, hopefully). Heres a summarization:

- Using the Windows enviroment was one of the prioritys in "the List > Player interface".
- Lets say they at least create the "hooks" needed to implement skins further down the road.
- What about one specific skin for each scenario in any future addon scenario-packs?
- Sir Shivas idea: Civ-specific skins or interface-skins changing through the game-eras.

The possibilities are endless, yet at the same time (and thats the beauty of it) completely bypassable for those who prefer bare-bone windows, or some functional "no nonsense" skins. Or perhaps Firaxis orginal choice(s).

Adm.Naismith · January 14, 2001, 20:37

quote:

Well, what do you suggest then? What can be done with skins realistically?

Sorry Ralf, I left a "if" anywhere from the keyboard to my post

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

My phrase must be

quote:

Skin are nice, but IF you can't tweak a bit the general interface (position, button, etc.) it quickly
become so cosmetic you don't care anymore.

My opinion, ordered from the more liked to the less, is:
- better if skin let you tune a bit the interface (not touching main element for obvius programming reason, but letting you move here and there interface element to better fit your taste and feel
- skin can work fine for scenario: they are more relevant to better create the right immersive feeling
- skin can change (as city looks already did in Civ2) with Civ developement, as Shiva suggest.
- skin can be different but grouped for every "cultural area" of Civ (it will save a lot of work, just in case we'll have a long list of available Civ to chose from, not to have to paint a completely different one set of skin): Roman can share the same of Greeks, because of cultural sharing, while Chinese surely must have greater difference.

If Firaxis can/would work on the skin concept I hope they'll develop with above priorities.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

January 14, 2001, 23:27

Scenario specific skins are a good idea too..

But, like Marco said, there might be problems for the civ-specific thread. They might give us Indians a Chinese skins (like they gave us Chinese cities in Civ2, and Middle Eastern cities in CTP2).

Another thing... What about cursors? It would be nice if they were skinned too. You could have a club, a sword, a gun, a shiny glass thing etc.

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-Shiva
Email: shiva@shivamail.com
Web: http://www.shivamail.com
ICQ: 17719980

St Leo · January 15, 2001, 22:50

Civ2 had skins (see icons.gif), but the problem was that they were scenario specific. Civ3 should separate the interface from scenario-specific files and allow users to mix and match.

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St. Leo
http://www.sidgames.com/hosted/ziggurat/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

Urban Ranger · January 15, 2001, 23:51

Skins aren't a bad idea, that's why Windowblinds is doing well (skins for the Windoze desktop). Some people like the chrome, some couldn't care less. It's always a good idea to leave it as an option.

On the other hand, it's silly to have the interface change with time. That would be just so disorienting. A player can't tell if the game has gone bonkers or not even if he or she was told by the manual something like that will happen.

tniem · January 16, 2001, 21:58

Just doesn't seem that important. Make an interface that is easy to use and works well. If you give the game player a chance to change the colors that is fine, but make sure that the actual interface is easy to use and displays everything you need.

weird god · January 16, 2001, 22:53

i would like each civ to have it´s own skin. they will most likely have different abilitis so giving them unique skins is a good idea (maybe altered to the abilities?)

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Apocalypse · January 16, 2001, 23:51

Firaxis will implement this if they have time. The original plan for SMAC was a different layout for each faction, but this was dropped because of time restraints.

eNo · January 17, 2001, 19:57

Good idea but sounds like one of those things that are time consuming with marginal benifits. Though if there is enough custimizability then there could be full out CivIII mods in the style of FPSs and skinning would be a step in that direction.

Techinically you can "skin" SMAC in a similar way you can skin WinAmp by fiddling with graphics files. The process is just much much more painful. And you can't define clear zones in SMAC (at least I think you can't).

Theben · January 18, 2001, 03:32

I'll chime in with a resounding "sure, why not". If they have time, but it's not a high priority of mine.

I don't think skins should modernize over time, though, unless they all move towards the same basic pattern: i.e. industrialized & modern cities in civII. And if they're civ specific they need to be more closely tuned in to each civ.

A thought just struck me: how about having skins "built" over time, ala the throne room? It could replace or enhance the throne room idea itself.

Adm.Naismith · January 19, 2001, 05:50

quote:

A thought just struck me: how about having skins "built" over time, ala the throne room? It could replace or enhance the throne room idea itself.

Smart idea!

I think is refreshing and interesting, but it haven't the same sense of accomplishment of the Civ Castle or (but I didn't liked too much) the throne room.

Thinking about how "puzzle like" where my Castle, I think that interface must be kept graphically coherent, or it will end to look very ugly on reviewers' screenshot

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

bagdar · January 19, 2001, 07:18

Please, no Windows interface!

Ralf · January 19, 2001, 12:12

quote:

Originally posted by bagdar on 01-19-2001 06:18 AM
Please, no Windows interface!

This thread is not primarily about if Civ-3 shall have a "MS Office-look", or not. Its about skins, there not only stuff like colours, patterns, styles, shapes is tweakable, but (maybe) also positions and placements of game-functions within each screen or tab. (well, i said maybe).

Dont just trash the idea instinctively. Bagdar. Even SMAC had many window'ish interface details like for example bottom-left menu-system ala Windows start-menu (although i prefer the Civ-2 upper-left menu-system, in Civ-3). CTP-2 had right-click menus (which i really hope that they incorporate in Civ-3 to).

Again, for those who havent clicked Neoplanet Internet explorer skins to discover how much that really can be done with skins; Do so now!

THEBEN quote: "I'll chime in with a resounding "sure, why not". If they have time, but it's not a high priority of mine."

I agree! This IS a secondary priority compared to "Make an interface that is easy to use and works well. ..., but make sure that the actual interface is easy to use and displays everything you need." (Tniem quote). Having said that however, i think it should be a interface-design priority nonetheless, although a secondary one.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 19, 2001).]

January 19, 2001, 12:21

Cool idea! The option of different skins would give the individual player his/her personal touch to the game

Cannes · January 19, 2001, 17:48

Wittlich... There are polls in the forum and there are discussion forums. It seems that you have difficulty in seperating these two concepts. I will explain it for you. A poll is where you voice your opinion on a specific idea be it either good or bad. The discussion forums are for those who have something constructive to say on a specific subject. The discussion forums are not a place to spam out post saying who you agree with and who you don't unless you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add to the discussion.
In a few words: Stop with "yes I agree with XXX on this" posts!

Ralf · January 19, 2001, 17:56

quote:

Originally posted by wittlich on 01-19-2001 11:21 AM
Cool idea! The option of different skins would give the individual player his/her personal touch to the game

I certainly agree.

Thanks for the support! A short positive response is better then none at all, although some added comments with some new angles every now and then, doesnt hurt either. The latter is more "mandatory" if the response is negative - reading "what a crappy idea" without further explanations is not so fun.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 19, 2001).]

markusf · May 7, 2001, 15:41

Ya winamp is a classic program with hundreds of skins. Also window blinds is another great program. It changes the look and feel of ALL applications.

Grumbold · May 9, 2001, 08:29

I'd rather get a feel of uniqueness and customisability from having the option to import unique unit and building graphics for each Civ and a "palace" screen that does not end up being identical at the end of every game. What colour or size each window has is of less importance to me. I'd rather Firaxis found one intuitive layout for all the buttons than tried different ones for each race. That was a gimmick I found more hurtful than helpful in BotF despite being atmospheric.

Ralf · May 10, 2001, 00:30

quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-09-2001 08:29 AM
I'd rather Firaxis found one intuitive layout for all the buttons than tried different ones for each race. That was a gimmick I found more hurtful than helpful in BotF despite being atmospheric.

It doesnt have to be "one for each race", or "a new skin for each game-session". Also, the idea of interface-skins doesnt have to be forced upon the player. Dont like it? Fine - simply stick with the default Firaxis-choice, or perhaps with barebone MS Windows-style.

Finally, the team doesnt necessarily have to spend valuable developing-time on making several skins to be included with the initial release. They can just create the "hooks" for it - then add forthcoming interface-skins in conjunction with any follow-up Scenario addon-packages instead. Besides, most of the work will probably be done by graphically skilled Civ-game enthusiasts anyway.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS:

- If the whole thing is completely optional & bypassable, and...
- If Firaxis can DELAY most of this work until after the final release, in favour of more urgent and immediate design-tasks - then whats the problem?

Now, is it the "most important" upgrade there ever was? NO, certainly not.
Does it provide a new creative area for talented and graphically gifted Civers out there - something new, besides Scenario-making and Modpacks-creating? YES!!!

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 09, 2001).]

Grumbold · May 10, 2001, 00:56

If they've balanced everything, given us a reward screen and made all the code fully customisable for the Mod community then yes, by all means lets have them do skins. I agree its a cool idea, just a real low priority one

Sabre2th · May 10, 2001, 21:05

I'd like to have skins in civ3, but only if it doesn't hurt gameplay or delay the game's release.

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