Which is more important to the US?

red_jon · May 14, 2002, 16:18

This isn't meant to be a troll, I'd genuinly like to see what people think - which ideology do you see as more important to the US?

OneFootInTheGrave · May 14, 2002, 16:24

but what is capitalism without democracy? Neo Nacizm...

Corporate republic

Star wars...

Arrian · May 14, 2002, 16:27

I'm an American and I'd say democracy. And if we have that, we'll continue to choose capitalism

-Arrian

Dom Pedro II · May 14, 2002, 16:29

Until the revolution comes... and then we spare no one!

Inverse Icarus · May 14, 2002, 16:31

<--- american. it depends who you ask really. i believe that democracy is really important to all americans, but many of them prefer economic freedoms.

red_jon · May 14, 2002, 16:37

I think the average American (or Westerner for that matter) prefer their material goods to the right to vote).

Arrian · May 14, 2002, 16:38

I think you're wrong.

By the way, what's up with the "I'm an American and I say capitalism" votes, but no posts to that effect. I think that's a tad fishy.

-Arrian

Gibsie · May 14, 2002, 16:39

But without the right to vote who knows what dark things might happen... I might get even less student loan money! But hang on, I get even less student loan money with the right to vote... I vote money!

Dom Pedro II · May 14, 2002, 16:42

I misunderstood the question before I voted...

I think most Americans assume capitalism and democracy go hand in hand, although they really don't. It's possible to be a liberal despot... unlikely, but possible.

monkspider · May 14, 2002, 17:17

As an American, I'll happily take Democracy, thank you very much. In fact, I long for the day in which we break the chains of capitalism.

Faeelin · May 14, 2002, 17:33

Democracy is by far superior. Capitalist dicatorships combine corruption with oppression; democratic states combine the ruthless efficiency of capitalism with the people's ability to ensure they benefit. Or some such.

Oh, and I really don't trust those numbers.

David Floyd · May 14, 2002, 17:44

Capitalism, because capitalism is freedom, while democracy can lead to unfree policies and such.

Ecthy · May 14, 2002, 17:44

For the US, Capitalism. For the American people (and all of the world for that matter) it would be democracy, but over there money rules not popular will. And money recreates new popular will. It's fun.

Bereta_Eder · May 14, 2002, 17:46

david floyd,

dictatorships are capitalistic too

David Floyd · May 14, 2002, 17:48

Quote:

dictatorships are capitalistic too

No they aren't - I'm talking about laissez-faire when I say capitalism. If you can name a laissez-faire dictatorship I'd be interested in emigrating there.

Ecthy · May 14, 2002, 17:48

do you actually know how to pronounce that?

Bereta_Eder · May 14, 2002, 17:49

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd

No they aren't - I'm talking about laissez-faire when I say capitalism. If you can name a laissez-faire dictatorship I'd be interested in emigrating there.

The Greek one. AFAIK there was not control of the market. I'd be surprised if it was the only one to not control the market.

Bereta_Eder · May 14, 2002, 17:50

Also the Spanish and Portuegeuse

Ecthy · May 14, 2002, 17:51

I bet he doesn't

rah · May 14, 2002, 17:55

Democracy leads to the oppression of the minority by the majority.
Capitalism leads to the oppression of the majority by the minority.

So who is really be oppressed in the US, poor minorities.

David Floyd · May 14, 2002, 18:01

Paiktis,

In practice, the Spanish and Greek economies were not laissez faire...no nation has ever been on a laissez-faire system.

David Floyd · May 14, 2002, 18:02

In fact the US is far more capitalistic than anyone else, but certainly not a true free market by any means.

Bereta_Eder · May 14, 2002, 18:04

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd
Paiktis,

In practice, the Spanish and Greek economies were not laissez faire...no nation has ever been on a laissez-faire system.

yes and they still are not

(thank God

but you talked about capitalism and the economic system of the dictatorships was definitely capitalistic. the market was not controlled by the state (it was not like the german national socialism system for example).

what happened was that civil liberties were limited to the point they did not exist while the economic system remained capitalistic

Ned · May 14, 2002, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I'm an American and I'd say democracy. And if we have that, we'll continue to choose capitalism

-Arrian

Ditto. I also do not think that capitalism can exist without democracy. China's experiment, as was Russia's, with capitalism while restraining democracy is doomed. Ned

Akka · May 14, 2002, 18:11

Capitalism is not freedom, it's merely anarchy.
What people seems to forgot is that democratic laws are made to ensure the freedom, not to restrain it. When you do not have laws, you have anarchy, and law of the jungle (the stronger take what he wants, the weaker shut up).
I hardly see why free capitalism is equal to democracy. Free capitalism is the harshest form of dictatorship.

Bereta_Eder · May 14, 2002, 18:13

many americans seem to believe that capitalism equals freedom.

I think this was part of the cold war rhetorics.

David Floyd · May 14, 2002, 18:13

Quote:

but you talked about capitalism and the economic system of the dictatorships was definitely capitalistic. the market was not controlled by the state (it was not like the german national socialism system for example).

Were there tariffs on any foreign goods, or laws about other nations you could not trade with? Was there a capital-gains tax, or an income or corporate tax? Were there laws against monopolies, price-fixing, or setting prices too low?

If there was any of that - and I'd wager most of that went on - then it wasn't laissez-faire.

Bereta_Eder · May 14, 2002, 18:17

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd

Were there tariffs on any foreign goods, or laws about other nations you could not trade with? Was there a capital-gains tax, or an income or corporate tax? Were there laws against monopolies, price-fixing, or setting prices too low?

If there was any of that - and I'd wager most of that went on - then it wasn't laissez-faire.

yes but laissez faire is not the only form of capitalism.

And besides I thought we were talking about capitalism as it exists in the US or the EU for example. that kind of capitalism was in place and active during the dictatorship (give or take)

David Floyd · May 14, 2002, 18:20

Quote:

yes but laissez faire is not the only form of capitalism.

It's true capitalism, unlike the current mixed economies dominating North America and Europe

Quote:

And besides I thought we were talking about capitalism as it exists in the US or the EU for example. that kind of capitalism was in place and active during the dictatorship

My mistake, then

The Vagabond · May 14, 2002, 18:22

During the Cold War, the USA supported capitalistic dictatorships and helped to overthrow democratically elected govs if the latter happened to be too left. Consequently, Capitalism is more important to the US than Democracy.