The French corner : Joan or Napoleon or Louis XIV

[Kramerman]

oh yeah, Cleopatra, forgot all about her, though I heard as a seductress she was more charming than beautiful. But that's only a rumor that an old history teacher told my class, there's no way of knowing for sure though .
One thing is for sure and that is they could of done a little better job modeling her in the game , huh, am i right? Am I right?
Your right, Sabrewolf, they should of made Cathrine a young Czarina.
As for Elizabeth, (who i heard seduced Sir Francis Drake, on the topic of seductresses) she should of been modled after Elizabeth Hurley (she's a Brit, right?) w/ red hair.

[Kramerman]

"L'Amérique? C'est révolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture." - Georges Clemenceau

... uhm... correct me, if i'm wrong

I think this might be the quote, I found it on the internet and its by Clemenceau and its along the lines of your translation...
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization."


This quote surprises me though, because I know that Clemenceau came to America to live for awhile because Napoleon III didnt like him, or something like that. Kind of odd that he would speak poorly of a country that he chose to live in (out of all the countries and colonies in the world) when running from his own country.

But, I take it fresno doesnt like America
Oh well. The US gov does make mistakes, but im sure the Danish gov does too....

[Kramerman]

You'll tell this still makes him an arrogant, ungrateful ass. But you Americans, who fought dearly for your independance, know how important this is. For France, acquiring independance from the homogeneous US didn't need any bloodshed, just some words and money.

I don't understand, Spiffor, particularly what you mean by a homogeneous US. The US is anything but homogeneous(thats the source of many of our problems, in fact). I personally, honostly, could careless if someone was arogant or ungrateful, as de Gaulle was. Stuff I said earlier was mostly just joking around. But what ticks me off about de Gaulle is while America and Britain were conducting a freaking world war, he was being completely uncooperative to their requests on how they would like him to help or participate. This very possibly could of jeoperdized the liberation of France, 'cause as you know, when fighting a world war you need order and organization. Then when the war was over, he paraded himself as the hero of France, when in actuality durring the war, other than some stuff he did in Africa and little w/ the french resistance, he just worked on his PR image and eliminated any political competiton to him as the assumed leader of france after its eventual liberation. It just seems to me he cared more about his personal ambitions than he did about France, and exploited Allied war efforts to further his ambitions.
This is only my opinion of him though. If there is any misinformation in what ive said please tell me, because if he was a good guy, than I would like to respect him...

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman
oh yeah, Cleopatra, forgot all about her, though I heard as a seductress she was more charming than beautiful. But that's only a rumor that an old history teacher told my class, there's no way of knowing for sure though .
One thing is for sure and that is they could of done a little better job modeling her in the game , huh, am i right? Am I right?
Your right, Sabrewolf, they should of made Cathrine a young Czarina.
As for Elizabeth, (who i heard seduced Sir Francis Drake, on the topic of seductresses) she should of been modled after Elizabeth Hurley (she's a Brit, right?) w/ red hair.

oh yes... the most beautiful legs in cinema and love her english accent

there's a guy who made a whole set of amazon units... i wonder if he included some good looking leaderesses?

(i can already picture some comments on this topic: "go have a cold showser" or "i you want pretty women, don't play civ3" ... well )

[Fresno]

Sabrewolf:

"the average something dutch(?) has the IQ of half a plancton (you know, these single-cell-thingies ) and ........... at everything that moves"

Hey, not bad for someone who doesn't speak Dutch!
An "oranjeklant" is a fan of the Dutch royal family. Translated it would be:
"The average royalist has the IQ of half an ounce of plancton and will wave to everything that moves anyway."
It was said by Youp van 't Hek, a Dutch comedian and collumnist who is in favour of a Dutch republic instead of the current Dutch monarchy.

Your second translation is 100% correct.

Kramerman:

But, I take it fresno doesnt like America
Oh well. The US gov does make mistakes, but im sure the Danish gov does too....

Don't be sad, I don't like many aspects of America. I don't like some aspects of the Dutch (I'm not Danish ) government as well. But the American faults are both more numerous and worse as the faults of any other democratic western country in the last fifty years.

I've got the feeling that many Americans don't see that. If you do see those mistakes, then that's great.

[Kramerman]

Don't be sad, I don't like many aspects of America. I don't like some aspects of the Dutch (I'm not Danish ) government as well. But the American faults are both more numerous and worse as the faults of any other democratic western country in the last fifty years.

It may very well be true that we have more, and much more serious faults as many other western democracy, but we also have many more and much stronger good points as well. Like, apple pie, Disney World, Britney Spears , as well as a whole bunch of other women who sun bathe on beaches in thongs (you know when you have a democracy when women are allowed to ware as skimpy of clothing as they like. I mean look at the middle east succers). Wait, is it true women in parts of Europe (like Italy and France) sun bathe topless? Damn it! I guess those countries are better than the US.

P.S. "advantages" and "disadvantages" are often based on opinoin and very hard to prove to be one way or another. Someone who sees something as a bad thing - like Globalization - I think is a good thing, etc.
And if your not Danish fresno, what are yu? if your going to lie in your profile, make it obvious so fools like me dont believe it.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman
It may very well be true that we have more, and much more serious faults as many other western democracy, but we also have many more and much stronger good points as well. Like, apple pie, Disney World, Britney Spears , as well as a whole bunch of other women who sun bathe on beaches in thongs (you know when you have a democracy when women are allowed to ware as skimpy of clothing as they like. I mean look at the middle east succers). Wait, is it true women in parts of Europe (like Italy and France) sun bathe topless? Damn it! I guess those countries are better than the US.

P.S. "advantages" and "disadvantages" are often based on opinoin and very hard to prove to be one way or another. Someone who sees something as a bad thing - like Globalization - I think is a good thing, etc.
And if your not Danish fresno, what are yu? if your going to lie in your profile, make it obvious so fools like me dont believe it.

america brought the world a lot of things... but why... why why why did you have to bring us brintey ?

what? you say no topless bathing in the states? uh oh... put on scarfs and you could be an islamic state best would be the california chicks (from the baywatch-series) in europe

Kramerman: fresno isn't danish (denmark, scandinavian country, north of germany, south of sweden), but dutch (netherlands = holland, west of germany, north of belgium) ... where did you see denmark in his profile?

[Kramerman]

what? you say no topless bathing in the states? uh oh... put on scarfs and you could be an islamic state

Noooooooo!! its true. Its considered something like "indecent exposure" through most of the year and in most places. Though the law is pretty lax in New Orleans during Marti Graw, most any places during Spring Break (thats when the college students go wild), and year round on the nudist colony beaches (which none I seem to be able to locate), I still detest this oppressive law. If a women (or man, i guess) wants to put herself on public display, than I think that should be her right protected under The Freedom of Speech, garuntted to us by the US Contsitution.

best would be the california chicks (from the baywatch-series) in europe

Oh yeah, Baywatch, forgot about that. I heard somewhere that that show a somepoint was the most popular in the world. I also heard they found some Baywatch tapes in some former Taliban headquarters in Afghanistan. Looks like those Fundamentalists are hipocrites....

fresno isn't danish

Damn it!!
I could of swore it said he was from Denmark. I remember because I was going to make some Greenland jokes, but thought better of it. I think he changed it as I requested...yeah had to. I was going to say something about Denmarkians (being fresh) but decided to be politically corect and just say Danes.

(denmark, scandinavian country, north of germany, south of sweden), but dutch (netherlands = holland, west of germany, north of belgium

And thanks Sabrewolf for the explanation, but I learned all about Euro-geography in 5th and then again in 9th grade. My Dane-Dutch mistake probably had something to do with a stroke of dislexia(sp?) Do you know where Texas is?

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman
And thanks Sabrewolf for the explanation, but I learned all about Euro-geography in 5th and then again in 9th grade. My Dane-Dutch mistake probably had something to do with a stroke of dislexia(sp?) Do you know where Texas is?

sorry, just wanted to be sure... i've heard of some switzerland-sweden mixups... same for australia and austria. in a forum an american tried to convince me, that paris was the capital of europe... and europe was actually the united states of europe with italy, france, etc. as states, not sovereign countries

texas, of course i know where that is... good 'ol dubya (W) is from there ... but i couldn't name all the states of new england

by the way: i loathe baywatch... all exept some bouncing bathingsuits
there was another series. one with hulk hogan and a hi-tech racing boat. i think something like "thunder in paradise" .... the series was if worse, but the chicks even better.

so to come back on-topic: dress joan, cathy, cleo and liz with some nice beach-clothing and it would boost civ3 sales by 50%

[Kramerman]

Yes, baywatch had poor plots, horible dialogue, and even worse acting, I personally don think ive ever seen a full episode.
And dont let Baby Bush sway your opinion of Texas or America for that matter. Sometimes I wonder about him, then I think of our other choice for Pres, Al Gore. The American public were kinda between a rock and a hard place for that one.

but i couldn't name all the states of new england

I dont think I could name any provinces in Switzerland. Do you even have provinces?

so to come back on-topic: dress joan, cathy, cleo and liz with some nice beach-clothing and it would boost civ3 sales by 50%

Absolutely, and add more clevage, always add more clevage. sales would skyrocket.

Kman

P.S. Your English is better than mine. Fresno's wasn't bad either. My compliments.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman
And dont let Baby Bush sway your opinion of Texas or America for that matter. Sometimes I wonder about him, then I think of our other choice for Pres, Al Gore. The American public were kinda between a rock and a hard place for that one.

well... over here in europe most are not too pleased with 'W' ... but that would now be waaaaaay off-topic....

I dont think I could name any provinces in Switzerland. Do you even have provinces?

somthing like it. they're called cantons and we have 26 of 'em. but don't forget, that switzerland as whole is only about double the size of the everglades in florida, so they're not really very big [btw: that's why i think federalism is exagerated in CH... cantons of only 80'000 having there own school system, police, etc.]

P.S. Your English is better than mine. Fresno's wasn't bad either. My compliments.

wow, thanks

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Kramerman
And if your not Danish fresno, what are yu? if your going to lie in your profile, make it obvious so fools like me dont believe it.

I think he changed it as I requested...yeah had to. I was going to say something about Denmarkians (being fresh) but decided to be politically corect and just say Danes.

I never said I'm from Denmark.

My Dane-Dutch mistake probably had something to do with a stroke of dislexia(sp?) Do you know where Texas is?

Of course I do, it's in Denmark

[Kramerman]

I appologize for thinking your Danish.

I think that the game should come with a couple of leader heads for each civ, maybe a even several from some cives, and then the player can chose who he wants to be and who he can play aagainst.
For example, Id like to play as NApoleon if I played France, but if I played agains France I would perfer Joan to be the leader. Though the game developers may run into problems with this idea, I didn'y even know who Shaka was, let alone any other Zulu leaders.

my first on topic reply in some time,
Kman

[Fresno]

Well, I'll post on-topic too, then... Although I can't say I'm used to do that.... It would be a good idea, but if they add more civs, I guess they will busy enough making heads for each civ already. Let's not make it too hard for those developers...

[Kramerman]

No, I disagree. I say we give those developers a hard-ass time. I bought civ iii thinking it was going to be the coolest game ever and then was sorely disapointed. Now to get the game I thought I was going to get originally with the first 40$ I spent , I'm going to have to shell out more money now for PtW to get the stuff that should of been included with the original game!
The Firaxians just want our money! And the sad thing is.... they're gonna get it. I just like the game too much

Kman

There goes me staying on topic.

[Imperial-Markus]

Wohooo an interesting discussion therefore I could not resist to bring myself into it. So spotlights on a new European participant.
First of all in my book little Boney and Louis are both great leaders but than I realized the most important fact (TATA): Boney was a multitalent: He was a military genius AND ran a country. Louis could ONLY run the country. So after further consideration I voted for Napoleon. Hmmm but Joan is cute and therefore I reversed my decision another time well it's a tough question. Oh how about this: The French should be ruled by a triumvirate: Napo will do the fighting, Louis the bureaucracy and Joan will be their merchandising chic (for "negotiations" with other rulers; well I think you get the point )

Hmmm and regarding your little geography quiz one funny question for our American: Describe the position of Austria (perhaps name a few neighbouring states)

Have a nice day.

[Kramerman]

I think your idea for the triumvirate is excellent and I also believe Im the lone, resident American you are refering to.

Well, Austria, If I remember correctly, has a relative position north of Italy (from where I happen to have 50% descent from), east of Austria (Sabrewolf's nation of origin), south of Germany, and west of....uh, I would guess Hungry (from my knowledge of history, Austria-Hungry)? Oh yeah, and I belive Slovenia to be to the south-east (I remember hearing something about that they broke off from Yugoslavia many years back because they had a majority of ethnic Austrians, or something like that). Id be curious to how I did!

Kman
Well, looking back, we have had quite an off-topic, but still intersting conversation, I must say.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman


I think your idea for the triumvirate is excellent and I also believe Im the lone, resident American you are refering to.

Well, Austria, If I remember correctly, has a relative position north of Italy (from where I happen to have 50% descent from), east of Austria (Sabrewolf's nation of origin), south of Germany, and west of....uh, I would guess Hungry (from my knowledge of history, Austria-Hungry)? Oh yeah, and I belive Slovenia to be to the south-east (I remember hearing something about that they broke off from Yugoslavia many years back because they had a majority of ethnic Austrians, or something like that). Id be curious to how I did!

Kman
Well, looking back, we have had quite an off-topic, but still intersting conversation, I must say.

haha another dislexia-case? austria is east of austria ... but most here know, what you meant.

well done for your geographical knowledge! you left out the check republic (now how the hell does one write that ... cheque? )
you "ethnic knowledge" wasn't that good slovenia did split of from yugoslavia, but not because they had a lot of austrians (tourists yes, inhabitants no), but slovene's .

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Fresno
Well, I'll post on-topic too, then... Although I can't say I'm used to do that.... It would be a good idea, but if they add more civs, I guess they will busy enough making heads for each civ already. Let's not make it too hard for those developers...

actually i wouldn't mind, if they'd leave the whole leader animations and concentrate more on game options. imagine having 32 civs and each coming with 3 animated leaderheads... but still none of the VITAL changes in the game (more editing possibilities, no hardcoded maximal amount of techs, no maximal range for bombers, etc, etc, etc).

firaxis could get rid of some artists (or put them in games that need art) and get more and better programmers

[Kramerman]

haha another dislexia-case? austria is east of austria

austria is east of austria!? What the hell! How many freaking Austrias are there!? .
Anyway, I noticed the large number of Europeans not from England, and I know how close all yall's countries are together, but how many languages do you guys usually learn in a life time? Wouldn't it be nice if the EU adopted an official language, or have they already? See, most Americans usually only know English and maybe be "semi-fluent" in a second (dont get me wrong, many Americans do know several languages, but most don't) and thats only because all high school curriculums require at least 2 and sometimes 3 years of study in a forein language. I my self wanted to take German, but it was not offered at my school . Instead, being on the border of Mexico and the rest of Latin America, I took 3 years of Spanish, but I only know enough to get by.
Buenos Noches Los Europeaneros(I dont think that is actually a word).

firaxis could get rid of some artists (or put them in games that need art) and get more and better programmers

Agree completely. Only I think it is too late for civ iii. I think it'll always be remembered as the forgotten civ...

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman
but how many languages do you guys usually learn in a life time?

oh, that depends of the country and the person imho the most talented countries are the dutch, swiss, swedes and norwegian. strangely the danes i know weren't that great. but the swedish and norwegian girls i met in italy (language trip) all spoke PERFECT english, german, their own language and even the other scandinavian language(s).

here in the german part of switzerland we learn french as a first foreign language and then either italian or english. a lot choose more. spanish and russian are quite popular at the moment. but note, that i'm talking about the academic swiss. the 80% others get 1-2 foreign languages.
btw: i just started learning my 7th (after german, english, french, italian, bosnian, spanish) language: turkish unfortunatly none of them perfect and only two really fluent.

Wouldn't it be nice if the EU adopted an official language, or have they already?

my exgirlfriend is from paraguay and there they had 60 (i think) years long a regime which forbid them to speak the native indio language.... and even though the vast majority of the population are spanish decent, the language survived. it's called guarani.

i don't believe you could choose an official language. and if so, you couldn't enforce it. most speak english, so that probably comes closest.

don't you in the states neither have an official language? as far as i know, there's no officially declared one? but of course it's clear, that american-english is "the one"

[Imperial-Markus]

Well congratulation Kramerman to your profound knowledge in geography. Except these little mistakes sabrewolf pointed out already you're description was quite good.

Concerning our language knowledge: English is the first foreign language you learn from primary school till university shortly followed by Italian (Italy is our second important trading partner after Germany) French and Spanish being equal on the third place.
I speak German (certainly), English (think it's quite good; what’s your opinion?),Italian and French.

The official diplomatic language in the EU is French (it's quite clear with Bruxelles as it's capital and all laws and protocols will be first typed in French and afterwards translated in all other EU languages. Correctly German should be the 1st language regarding the population (80 mil. Germans plus 8 () mil. Austrians compared to 65 mil. Frenchies (France, Belgium and Luxembourg combined). But anyway it doesn't matter just wanted to show you my demographic skills

Oh and I didn’t know that Switzerland is a protectorate of Austria thanks for updating my knowledge on this matter Kram.

One final note for sabrewolf:
Schöne Grüße an die Schweiz.

[Ribannah]

The EU has no less than 11 official languages: Danish, Dutch, English, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish.

[Fresno]

Ribannah! You're Dutch! How could you ever forget the Frisians?

[Kramerman]

i don't believe you could choose an official language. and if so, you couldn't enforce it. most speak english, so that probably comes closest.

I meant an official language as a second language that would be satandard for most to learn. In other words, everybody would of course learn their native language, and then there would be like an "official" language that would be encouraged to learn, so anybody in Europe (which i pretty much consider a giant country as far as you guys are so close knit now - though I know each country does definately have a unique culture) could communicate easily with most anybody else in Europe; therefore eliminating the need to learn multiple languages. But as you said, if most speak English then that is pretty much what I was talking about.

but the swedish and norwegian girls

Scandinavian chicks eh . A friend of mine is of germanic/ scandinavian descent (most Americans keep somewhat in touch with their heritage- which is usually quite mixed- especially in my case) and has somewhat of a fetish with particularly Norwegian girls. He's kinda wierd though. Im pretty sure he does drugs.

Kman

[GhengisFarb™]

In America we don't even learn a whole language, just parts.

They start teaching you Anglish (different from English, English is too hard to spell, all kinds of extra letters) as soon as you show a desire to talk (average starting age at 2-18 years old depending on the political and pc views of the child's parents, "If Boompkins doesn't want to speak, Boompkins doesn't have to....").

Anglo-Spanish starts soon after and includes vocabulary necessary for the survival of the American species, words such as: taco, enchilada, tamale, uno, dos, tres(for really fat kids), and tequila(advanced Anglo-Spanish usually learned by age of 6).

Once the individual reaches driving age(16 except for OK and TX where its 12) there are various new language fragments such as croissant(necessary for Burger King breakfasts).

ON TOPIC
I have to side with Napoleon, excellent military general, as far as being a 'loser' as mentioned in previous posts, if you don't change your strategy the enemy will eventually learn. Might take them a decade or so, but they will learn. There were also a lot of other factors that contributed to Waterloo: the Prussians didn't like him, the weather, the Prussians REALLY didn't like him, Arthur Wellesley was a very good general, and the Prussians REALLY, REALLY didn't like Napoleon.

He was also a sucessful statesman and was able to introduce many reforms in France.


Or Charlemagne, who did an excellent job of organizing his fathers resources, establishing a stable civilization after an era of chaos left by the fall of the Roman Empire.

By the way, all those people who whine about Charlemagne and Clovis being German: Where do you think the French came from? Were they some spontaneous creature evolving from herrings and bird droppings? The Franks were a germanic tribe. Frenchmen are all german. (Not in the sense, they hail form Germany, but are descended from germanic stock).

Anyway, I'll shut up now.......

[Kramerman]

Where do you think the French came from? Were they some spontaneous creature evolving from herrings and bird droppings?

Yes! Of course! That explains everything! Now I can just brgin to understand them... .

Kman

P.S. French Toast Sticks and McBiscuit is also crucial by age 6 for various breakfasts (French Toast Sticks is a phrase hailing from the fine lands of France, McBiscuit I believe originates deep within the Scottish moores)

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ribannah
The EU has no less than 11 official languages: Danish, Dutch, English, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish.

Ever heard of "compromise"?

That is a joke.

For the sake of keeping this post on topic, I will not go into the posts against America made by ingrates.

Napoleon or Charlemagne should lead France, the rest can be GLs.

[Fresno]

Ever heard of "compromise"?

That is a joke.

For some Esperanto-speakers it isn't.

Anyone ever heard of the country of Neutral Moresnet?
(Probably only some Belgians or Germans...)

[Ribannah]

Yep - was there on vacation many years ago

And my vote goes to Charlemagne.
He did many great things for France, among them setting up an educational system. Bonaparte was just a warmongerer, excellent for a GL. Same goes for Jeanne d'Arc.

Originally posted by Verto
Ever heard of "compromise"?

I have, but the EU has not

Originally posted by Fresno
Ribannah! You're Dutch! How could you ever forget the Frisians?

That's where many of my ancestors came from!
But to the EU theirs is not an official language, ie reports will not be printed in Frysian. It is, however, a 'protected language' (not sure about the exact title) ie worthy, in the eyes of the EU, of efforts to preserve it.