more guns because there is more crime, more crime because there are more guns?

[Adalbertus]

we in Holland took care of our little problem, thanks to guns.

Hm. Isn't it sufficient to have illegal guns for that purpose?
[/sarcasm]

[Aeson]

Regardless of why people hunt, it does serve a purpose. We have eliminated all of the natural preditors and so have to keep the animal populations in check.

Hunting rifles are rarely involved in crimes. It's the other guns which aren't needed. The proper storage for a gun makes it less useful as a crime deterant. If a criminal busts into your house with the intent on shooting you, he won't wait for you to unlock and load your gun.

Improper storage leads to accidents.

[- Groucho -]

Le Pen was just the thin (ok, fat) end of the wedge. Europe likes to think that in the last 30 years it has put thousands of years of barbarism behind it, but those who forget (or in this case, deny) the past are doomed to repeat it.

[Adalbertus]

Europe likes to think that in the last 30 years it has put thousands of years of barbarism behind it, but those who forget (or in this case, deny) the past are doomed to repeat it.

Of course, America is immune to barbarism.

[Saint Marcus]

Of course, America is immune to barbarism.

indeed. and I'm sure the native Americans would agree.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Texas allows concealed handguns, once a training class is completed.
Not too surprisingly, crimes against individuals has dropped.

Violent crime has been dropping for the past ten years anyway.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by faded glory
Germany, Denmark, Holland, and UK have officially surpassed USA crime levels.

Violent crime or the property crime rate?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Echinda
Food for thought:



From John Tiernan's column in the New York Times this week comparing London and New York's recent crime statistics. Not sure how to verify that, but the NYT is usually pretty good at getting stuff like this right.

Doesn't NY have pretty stiff gun control laws? Every few years whomever happens to be mayor of NY will come out and blame Virginia for being the source of most of the guns used in NY gun crimes. The governor of VA will then deny it.

[markusf]

Of course having more guns in peoples hands leads to more crime.

Just think of it logically, if your going to kill someone, whats easier to do, chase after them with a hammer or use a gun? I'd assume a person would need to be a lot more pysc'd to use a hammer instead of a gun.

Make guns illegal for anyone under the age of 30.. That would take care of the gangs etc.

[faded glory]

"Violent crime or the property crime rate?"

I was being to vague perhaps. What I meant was crime..Vandalism, Theft ( especially theft) and Domestic violence are higher than American Levels

[- Groucho -]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Doesn't NY have pretty stiff gun control laws? Every few years whomever happens to be mayor of NY will come out and blame Virginia for being the source of most of the guns used in NY gun crimes. The governor of VA will then deny it.

NY gun laws are pretty strict by American standards. Compare them to the UK though ... Clearly the fact that NY only leads London in murder and lags substantially in the other violent crimes mentioned shows that more guns does not mean more violence. Maybe more murder, but not more violence.

[- Groucho -]

Here is an interesting exerpt from a Washington Post article from August of last year:

The statistics bear out the concern. In the first six months of the year [2001], crime [in France] rose about 9.6 percent over last year, according to the Interior Ministry. And a widely circulated new report, drawing on statistics from the Interior Ministry and the FBI, shows the crime rate to be higher in France than in the United States.

Last year France recorded 4,244 crimes per 100,000 inhabitants, compared with 4,135 in the United States, where crime has been steadily decreasing. The United States still leads France in the number of murders and rapes per 100,000 residents, but France leads in violent thefts and some property crimes, including car theft.

For violent theft, France recorded 185 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 145 in the United States. For simple theft, France had 2,588 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 2,475 in the United States. And car theft was far higher in France, with 507 reported cases per 100,000 compared with 420 in the United States.

For many French, who view the United States as a Wild West-style place with an abundance of firearms, the new statistics are alarming.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Echinda
Here is an interesting exerpt from a Washington Post article from August of last year:

But is their definition of violent theft the same as ours? In France using words not genuinely "French" during a theft constitutes a violent crime. For instance, telling someone that you're going to take their "television" not only constitutes robbery, but also an assault on the French language, which makes it a violent crime. Since now less than half the words in the French language are genuinely French almost any verbal exchange during a robbery will make the crime a violent one. As a solution to this problem the minisrty of police has requested that incarcerated felons be taught to mime. The rate of violent crime in France is expected to decrease soon.

[- Groucho -]

If you think an increase in the number of mimes will lead to a decrease in violent crime, well, you don't know mimes.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Wraith
--"However, Slowhand, in places where handgun ownership is banned completely, crime has dropped."

Like D.C. you mean?
Sorry, Chegitz, but crime rates correlate more closely with economic conditions than with gun ownership. The crime stats I've seen cover the latest boom period, so it shouldn't be surpring that overall crime rates have been declining (it's also interesting to note that country-wide gun ownership has been increasing during this time period). Now that the economy is suffering we may see a change in that trend.

That was my point, Wraith.

Faded, the fact that handguns are banned in Chicago doesn't mean that you can't get them. You just cannot have them legally. And while yes, you can buy just about anything you want, if you know the right people, they don't get them in Illinois. There are people known as straw buyers. People who go to areas where gun ownership and purchasing laws are more lax (and also gun shows), purchase large quantities of guns, and bring them back to the city, where they sell them. The Brady Law may have changed the dynamics of this, but before the Feds stepped in, most of Chicago's illegal firearms could be traced back to Texas.

In any event, Chicago is hardly an armed populace. In all my years there, I saw one gun, excluding the police, a .357 magnum, freshly fired by a psychopath who lived behind me. He waved a car full of Black kids into the neighborhood (where Black people were not allowed to go), asking them to jump his car. Once they crossed "the line" he pulled his gun and opened fire. My roommate and I decided to move that night. Up there on that balcony while he was telling us this was probably the closest I ever came to murder.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Adalbertus

Of course, America is immune to barbarism.

We have more of the hunter/killer instinct in barbarism, but have more experience with self-reliance and democracy. Free farmers as opposed to peasants and serfs. This is why we have both more bloodthirsty customs but more stable government.

[Wraith]

--"is not the fact that there is hunting guns in their home, but the fact they can get handguns and rifles ?"

Handguns and rifles are hunting weapons. Rifles for big game, shotguns for birds, handguns for small game and to protect against snakes.

--"And if a handgun costs 3,000 dollars on the black market"

Many guns used in crimes are stolen, not purchased (black market or otherwise).

--"I can imagine the police would be in favor of disarming the populace to make their jobs safer."

My father is a police officer, and he certainly is not in favor of this. Most duty officers are not, in fact. The only police that seem, as a group, to be in favor of gun control laws is police chiefs, which is more a political position than anything.
Duty officers understand they can not be everywhere and see everything all the time.

--"the reason they did this was to avoid a civilian uprise."

You don't think late-stage Rome could have really used a nice civilian uprising? Can't say things like the gladiator games were exactly signs of a great benevolent government.

--"Doesn't NY have pretty stiff gun control laws?"

NY city, last time I checked, had a total handgun ban, as does D.C. Interesting thing is that many citizens are either ignoring the ban or finding alternative, like carrying a can of oven cleaner (short-range spray in the face is a lot more effective than mace).

--"Make guns illegal for anyone under the age of 30.. That would take care of the gangs etc."

Yes, because gangs are obviously the law-obiding group, right?

--"But is their definition of violent theft the same as ours?"

This is why international comparisons are difficult.

--"That was my point, Wraith."

How can it possibly be that we agree? In a gun-control thread? Something must be wrong.

Wraith
Any mental functions attempted in this area must be re-evaluated during a subsequent period. It has been discovered that standard logic works sideways in this area due to the influence of the occupant.

[orange]

Originally posted by faded glory
Guns save thousands of peoples lives everyday. Wether it be an old lady who fires in the air to scare off a robber. Or a 7-11 clerk who blasts a mofo with a knife over a ladies neck.

The best part is that you ACTUALLY believe this!!

[faded glory]

Che, your wrong. Weapons are shipped in like any others, ordered up by ruthless gangs and drugdealers. They dont have runners that go texas and bring back guns. Your still restricted to federal background checks. Sorry, I would like to a source. To point the finger at texas just seems so politically, like you.

Oh and my bet with the Tech9 stands. If you want, we can get together in Chicago. I could probably prove it. Any street hustler or drug dealer will sell you a cheap firearm. Not from texas, but generally they come from oversea's purchases off the blackmarket.

[TCO]

Tech 9's cost more than that. That's more like what you can sell one to a dealer for. But to buy one, it's alot more...

[Az]

Tec-9 ? could someone post me a pic?

[David Floyd]

http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/class3_10.htm

[Ned]

As Roman Empire aged, the Emperors became increasingly autocratic and unrestrained by any deference to elected authority or to the Senate. They (Valens, who also brought us Andrianople) banned the private ownership of weapons precisely to prevent revolt in the face of tyranny. I can hardly believe that advocates of gun control can cite Valens actions in a favorable light.

[Az]

thanks , DF. looks like a fusion of a pistol, an Ingram , and .. something else , though. ( visually , of course )

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by orange


The best part is that you ACTUALLY believe this!!

Why is it funny? It's true.

[Sava]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Why is it funny? It's true.

Sure it is, just like there's a pink unicorn that lives behind our moon!

[Akka]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Why is it funny? It's true.

Half of the fun comes from the ridiculousness of the statement. The other half comes from the fact that you don't see anything ridiculous in it.

[David Floyd]

Many studies have reported that guns are used to prevent crimes in 600,000-2.5 million instances in a given year. These studies have been done by criminologists, not doctors, who are wholly unqualified to do such studies.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Many studies have reported that guns are used to prevent crimes in 600,000-2.5 million instances in a given year. These studies have been done by criminologists, not doctors, who are wholly unqualified to do such studies.

Oh, are we going to discuss Kleck's work again? You mean the study which predicted over 100,000 woundings/year resulting from "DGU" (defensive gun use)? Or was it 200,000? I forget, but we can take a little peak at the data again and find out. Nevertheless, if you wanted to find a study that was flawed by serious internal inconsistency, Kleck's work would be an excellent choice. And how does he explain it all? Black market physicians are hiding a massive epidemic of unreported gun woundings. I wonder, where does Cletus go to find one of them black market doctors when he gets shot while climbing over someone's fence? Do you reckon they're listed in the Yellow Pages?

[faded glory]

WHy is it untrue mr orange? You do know that happens alot in America??????