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Old June 1, 2000, 04:11   #1
Az
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Geneve Conventions & International Law in Civ3
What do you think about international law and military atrocities in Civ 3? plz post.

anyway:
I am posting here some of the things I found , if you find some more of them plz, post.


CONVENTION

for the pacific settlement of international disputes


His Majesty the German Emperor, King of Prussia; the President of
the United States of America; the President of the Argentine Republic;
His Majesty the Emperor of Austria, King of Bohemia, etc., and Apostolic
King of Hungary; His Majesty the King of the Belgians; the President of
the Republic of Bolivia; the President of the Republic of the United
States of Brazil; His Royal Highness the Prince of Bulgaria; the
President of the Republic of Chile; His Majesty the Emperor of China; the
President of the Republic of Colombia; the Provisional Governor of the
Republic of Cuba; His Majesty the King of Denmark; the President of the
Dominican Republic; the President of the Republic of Ecuador; His Majesty
the King of Spain; the President of the French Republic; His Majesty the
King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the
British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India; His Majesty the King
of the Hellenes; the President of the Republic of Guatemala; the
President of the Republic of Haiti; His Majesty the King of Italy; His
Majesty the Emperor of Japan; His Royal Highness the Grand Duke of
Luxembourg, Duke of Nassau; the President of the United States of Mexico;
His Royal Highness the Prince of Montenegro; the President of the
Republic of Nicaragua; His Majesty the King of Norway; the President of
the Republic of Panama; the President of the Republic of Paraguay; Her
Majesty the Queen of the Netherlands; the President of the Republic of
Peru; His Imperial Majesty the Shah of Persia; His Majesty the King of
Roumania; His Majesty the Emperor of All the Russias; the President of
the Republic of Salvador; His Majesty the King of Servia; His Majesty the
King of Siam; His Majesty the King of Sweden; the Swiss Federal Council;
His Majesty the Emperor of the Ottomans; the President of the Oriental
Republic of Uruguay; the President of the United States of Venezuela;

Animated by the sincere desire to work for the maintenance of
general peace;

Resolved to promote by all the efforts in their power the friendly
settlement of international disputes;

Recognizing the solidarity uniting the members of the society of
civilized nations;

Desirous of extending the empire of law and of strengthening the
appreciation of international justice;

Convinced that the permanent institution of a Tribunal of
Arbitration accessible to all, in the midst of independent Powers, will
contribute effectively to this result;

Having regard to the advantages attending the general and regular
organization of the procedure of arbitration;

Sharing the opinion of the august initiator of the International
Peace Conference that it is expedient to record in an International
Agreement the principles of equity and right on which are based the
security of States and the welfare of peoples;

Being desirous, with this object, of insuring the better working
in practice of Commissions of Inquiry and Tribunals of Arbitratio

CONVENTION (II) WITH RESPECT TO
THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND
(HAGUE, II) (29 Jul 1899)

Entry into Force: 4 September 1900

His Majesty the Emperor of Germany, King of Prussia; [etc.]:

Considering that, while seeking means to preserve peace and prevent armed
conflicts among nations, it is likewise necessary to have regard to cases
where an appeal to arms may be caused by events which their solicitude
could not avert;

Animated by the desire to serve, even in this extreme hypothesis, the
interest of humanity and the ever increasing requirements of
civilization;

Thinking it important, with this object, to revise the laws and general
customs of war, either with the view of defining them more precisely, or
of laying down certain limits for the purpose of modifying their severity
as far as possible;

Inspired by these views which are enjoined at the present day, as they
were twenty-five years ago at the time of the Brussels Conference in
1874, by a wise and generous foresight;

Have, in this spirit, adopted a great number of provisions, the object of
which is to define and govern the usages of war on land.

In view of the High Contracting Parties, these provisions, the wording of
which has been inspired by the desire to diminish the evils of war so far
as military necessities permit, are destined to serve as general rules of
conduct for belligerents in their relations with each other and with
populations.

It has not, however, been possible to agree forthwith on provisions
embracing all the circumstances which occur in practice.

On the other hand, it could not be intended by the High Contracting
Parties that the cases not provided for should, for want of a written
provision, be left to the arbitrary judgment of the military Commanders.

Until a more complete code of the laws of war is issued, the High
Contracting Parties think it right to declare that in cases not included
in the Regulations adopted by them, populations and belligerents remain
under the protection and empire of the principles of international law,
as they result from the usages established between civilized nations,
from the laws of humanity, and the requirements of the public conscience;

They declare that it is in this sense especially that Articles 1 and 2 of
the Regulations adopted must be understood;

The High Contracting Parties, desiring to conclude a Convention to this
effect, have appointed as their Plenipotentiaries, to wit:

[Here follow the names of plenipotentiaries.]


Who, after communication of their full powers, found in good and due
form, have agreed on the following:


Article 1

The High Contracting Parties shall issue instructions to their armed land
forces, which shall be in conformity with the "Regulations respecting the
Laws and Customs of War on Land" annexed to the present Convention.

Article 2

The provisions contained in the Regulations mentioned in Article 1 are
only binding on the Contracting Powers, in case of war between two or
more of them.

These provisions shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war
between Contracting Powers, a non-Contracting Power joins one of the
belligerents.

Article 3

The present Convention shall be ratified as speedily as possible. The
ratifications shall be deposited at the Hague.

A procŠs-verbal shall be drawn up recording the receipt of each
ratification, and a copy, duly certified, shall be sent through the
diplomatic channel, to all the Contracting Powers.

Article 4

Non-Signatory Powers are allowed to adhere to the present Convention.

For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting
Powers by means of a written notification, addressed to the Netherland
Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

Article 5

In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the
present Convention, such denunciation would not take effect until a year
after the written notification made to the Netherland Government, and by
it at once communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

This denunciation shall affect only the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present
Convention and affixed their seals thereto.

Done at the Hague the 29th July 1899, in a single copy, which shall be
kept in the archives of the Netherland Government, and copies of which,
duly certified, shall be delivered to the Contracting Powers through the
diplomatic channel.

[Here follow signatures.]

Annex to the Convention

REGULATIONS RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR ON LAND

SECTION I.--ON BELLIGERENTS

CHAPTER I.--On the Qualifications of Belligerents

Article 1

The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to
militia and volunteer corps, fulfilling the following conditions:

1. To be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
2. To have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;
3. To carry arms openly; and
4. To conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs
of war.
In countries where militia or volunteer corps constitute the army, or
form part of it, they are included under the denomination "army."

Article 2

The population of a territory which has not been occupied who, on the
enemy's approach, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading
troops without having time to organize themselves in accordance with
Article 1, shall be regarded a belligerent, if they respect the laws and
customs of war.

Article 3

The armed forces of the belligerent parties may consist of combatants
and non-combatants. In case of capture by the enemy both have a right to
be treated as prisoners of war.


CHAPTER II.--On Prisoners of War

Article 4

Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not
in that of the individuals or crops who captured them.
They must be humanely treated.
All their personal belongings, except arms, horses, and military
papers remain their property.

Article 5

Prisoners of war may be interned in a town, fortress, camp, or any
other locality, and bound not to go beyond certain fixed limits; but they
can only be confined as an indispensable measure of safety.

Article 6

The State may utilize the labor of prisoners of war according to their
rank and aptitude. Their tasks shall not be excessive, and shall have
nothing to do with the military operations.
Prisoners may be authorized to work for the Public Service, for
private persons, or on their own account.
Work done for the State shall be paid for according to the tariffs in
force for soldiers of the national army employed on similar tasks.
When the work is for other branches of the Public Service or for
private persons, the conditions shall be settled in agreement with the
military authorities.
The wages of the prisoners shall go towards improving their position,
and the balance shall be paid them at the time of their release, after
deducting the cost of their maintenance.

Article 7

The Government into whose hands prisoners of war have fallen is bound
to maintain them.
Failing a special agreement between the belligerents, prisoners of war
shall be treated as regards food, quarters, and clothing, on the same
footing as the troops of the Government which has captured them.

Article 8

Prisoners of war shall be subject to the laws, regulations, and orders
in force in the army of the State into whose hands they have fallen.
Any act of insubordination warrants the adoption, as regards them, of
such measures of severity as may be necessary.
Escaped prisoners, recaptured before they have succeeded in rejoining
their army, or before quitting the territory occupied by the army that
captured them, are liable to disciplinary punishment.
Prisoners who, after succeeding in escaping are again taken prisoners,
are not liable to any punishment for the previous flight.

Article 9

Every prisoner of war, if questioned, is bound to declare his true
name and rank, and if he disregards this rule, he is liable to a
curtailment of the advantages accorded to the prisoners of war of his
class.

Article 10

Prisoners of war may be set at liberty on parole if the laws of their
country authorize it, and, in such a case, they are bound, on their
personal honor, scrupulously to fulfill, both as regards their own
Government and the Government by whom they were made prisoners, the
engagements they have contracted.
In such cases, their own Government shall not require of nor accept
from them any service incompatible with the parole given.

Article 11

A prisoner of war can not be forced to accept his liberty on parole;
similarly the hostile Government is not obliged to assent to the
prisoner's request to be set at liberty on parole.

Article 12

Any prisoner of war, who is liberated on parole and recaptured,
bearing arms against the Government to whom he had pledged his honor, or
against the allies of that Government, forfeits his right to be treated
as a prisoner of war, and can be brought before the Courts.

Article 13

Individuals who follow an army without directly belonging to it, such
as newspaper correspondents and reporters, sutlers, contractors, who fall
into the enemy's hands, and whom the latter think fit to detain, have a
right to be treated as prisoners of war, provided they can produce a
certificate from the military authorities of the army they were
accompanying.

Article 14

A Bureau for information relative to prisoners of war is instituted,
on the commencement of hostilities, in each of the belligerent States,
and, when necessary, in the neutral countries on whose territory
belligerents have been received. This Bureau is intended to answer all
inquiries about prisoners of war, and is furnished by the various
services concerned with all the necessary information to enable it to
keep an individual return for each prisoner of war. It is kept informed
of interments and changes, as well as of admissions into hospital and
deaths.
It is also the duty of the Information Bureau to receive and collect
all objects of personal use, valuables, letters, etc., found on the
battlefields or left by prisoners who have died in hospital or ambulance,
and to transmit them to those interested.

Article 15

Relief Societies for prisoners of war, which are regularly constituted
in accordance with the law of the country with the object of serving as
the intermediary for charity, shall receive from the belligerents for
themselves and their duly accredited agents every facility, within the
bounds of military requirements and Administrative Regulations, for the
effective accomplishment of their humane task. Delegates of these
Societies may be admitted to the places of interment for the distribution
of relief, as also to the halting places of repatriated prisoners, if
furnished with a personal permit by the military authorities, and on
giving an engagement in writing to comply with all their Regulations for
order and police.

Article 16

The Information Bureau shall have the privilege of free postage.
Letters, money orders, and valuables, as well as postal parcels destined
for the prisoners of war or dispatched by them, shall be free of all
postal duties both in the countries of origin and destination, as well as
in those they pass through.
Gifts and relief in kind for prisoners of war shall be admitted free
of all duties of entry and others, as well as of payments for carriage by
the Government railways.

Article 17

Officers taken prisoners may receive, if necessary, the full pay
allowed them in this position by their country's regulations, the amount
to be repaid by their Government.

Article 18

Prisoners of war shall enjoy every latitude in the exercise of their
religion, including attendance at their own church services, provided
only they comply with the regulations for order and police issued by the
military authorities.

Article 19

The wills of prisoners of war are received or drawn up on the same
conditions as for soldiers of the National Army.
The same rules shall be observed regarding death certificates, as well
as for the burial of prisoners of war, due regard being paid to their
grade and rank.

Article 20

After the conclusion of peace, the repatriation of prisoners of war
shall take place as speedily as possible.


CHAPTER III. -- On the Sick and Wounded

Article 21

The obligations of belligerents with regard to the sick and wounded
are governed by the Geneva Convention of the 22nd August, 1864, [FN:5 TS
377, ante] subject to any modifications which may be introduced into it.


SECTION II. -- ON HOSTILITIES

CHAPTER I. -- On means of injuring the Enemy, Sieges, and Bombardments

Article 22

The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not
unlimited.

Article 23

Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is
especially prohibited:--

(a.) To employ poison or poisoned arms;
(b.) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the
hostile nation or army;
(c.) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down arms, or having no
longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
(d.) to declare that no quarter will be given;
(e.) To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause
superfluous injury;
(f.) To make improper use of a flag of truce, the national flag, or
military ensigns and the enemy's uniform, as well as the distinctive
badges of the Geneva Convention;
(g.) To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction
or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war.

Article 24

Ruses of war and the employment of methods necessary to obtain
information about the enemy and the country, are considered allowable.

Article 25

The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings
which are not defended, is prohibited.

Article 26

The Commander of an attacking force, before commencing a bombardment,
except in the case of an assault, should do all he can to warn the
authorities.

Article 27

In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps should be taken to
spare as far as possible edifices devoted to religion, art, science, and
charity, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected,
provided they are not used at the same time for military purposes.
The besieged should indicate these buildings or places by some
particular and visible signs, which should previously be notified to the
assailants.

Article 28

The pillage of a town or place, even when taken by assault, is
prohibited.


CHAPTER II. -- On Spies

Article 29

An individual can only be considered a spy if, acting clandestinely,
or on false pretences, he obtains, or seeks to obtain information in the
zone of operations of a belligerent, with the intention of communicating
it to the hostile party.
Thus, soldiers not in disguise who have penetrated into the zone of
operations of a hostile army to obtain information are not considered
spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers or
civilians, carrying out their mission openly, charged with the delivery
of despatches destined either for their own army or for that of the
enemy. To this class belong likewise individuals sent in balloons to
deliver despatches, and generally to maintain communication between the
various parts of an army or a territory.

Article 30

A spy taken in the act cannot be punished without previous trial.

Article 31

A spy who, after rejoining the army to which he belongs, is
subsequently captured by the enemy, is treated as a prisoner of war, and
incurs no responsibility for his previous acts of espionage.


CHAPTER III -- On Flags of Truce

Article 32

An individual is considered a parlementaire who is authorized by one
of the belligerents to enter into communication with the other, and who
carries a white flag. He has a right to inviolability, as well as the
trumpeter, bugler, or drummer, the flag-bearer, and the interpreter who
may accompany him.

Article 33

The Chief to whom a flag of truce is sent is not obliged to receive it
in all circumstances.
He can take all steps necessary to prevent the envoy taking advantage
of his mission to obtain information.
In case of abuse, he has the right to detain the envoy temporarily.

Article 34

The envoy loses his rights of inviolability if it is proved beyond
doubt that he has taken advantage of his privileged position to provoke
or commit an act of treachery.


CHAPTER IV. -- On Capitulations

Article 35

Capitulations agreed on between the Contracting Parties must be in
accordance with the rules of military honor.
When once settled, they must be scrupulously observed by both the
parties.


CHAPTER V. -- On Armistices

Article 36

An armistice suspends military operations by mutual agreement between
the belligerent parties. If its duration is not fixed, the belligerent
parties can resume operations at any time, provided always the enemy is
warned within the time agreed upon, in accordance with the terms of the
armistice.

Article 37

An armistice may be general or local. The first suspends all military
operations of the belligerent States; the second, only those between
certain fractions of the belligerent armies and in a fixed radius.

Article 38

An armistice must be notified officially, and in good time, to the
competent authorities and the troops. Hostilities are suspended
immediately after the notification, or at a fixed date.

Article 39

It is for the Contracting Parties to settle, in the terms of the
armistice, what communications may be held, on the theatre of war, with
the population and with each other.

Article 40

Any serious violation of the armistice by one of the parties gives the
other party the right to denounce it, and even, in case of urgency, to
recommence hostilities at once.

Article 41

A violation of the terms of the armistice by private individuals
acting on their own initiative, only confers the right of demanding the
punishment of the offenders, and, if necessary, indemnity for the losses
sustained.

SECTION III. -- ON MILITARY AUTHORITY OVER HOSTILE TERRITORY

Article 42

Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the
authority of the hostile army.
The occupation applies only to the territory where such authority is
established, and in a position to assert itself.

Article 43

The authority of the legitimate power having actually passed into the
hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all steps in his power to
re-establish and insure, as far as possible, public order and safety,
while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the
country.

Article 44

Any compulsion of the population of occupied territory to take part in
military operations against its own country is prohibited.

Article 45

Any pressure on the population of occupied territory to take the oath
to the hostile Power is prohibited.

Article 46

Family honors and rights, individual lives and private property, as
well as religious convictions and liberty, must be respected.
Private property cannot be confiscated.

Article 47

Pillage is formally prohibited.

Article 48

If, in the territory occupied, the occupant collects the taxes, dues,
and tolls imposed for the benefit of the State, he shall do it, as far as
possible, in accordance with the rules in existence and the assessment in
force, and will in consequence be bound to defray the expenses of the
administration of the occupied territory on the same scale as that by
which the legitimate Government was bound.

Article 49

If, besides the taxes mentioned in the preceding Article, the occupant
levies other money taxes in the occupied territory, this can only be for
military necessities or the administration of such territory.

Article 50

No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, can be inflicted on the
population on account of the acts of individuals for which it cannot be
regarded as collectively responsible.

Article 51

No tax shall be collected except under a written order and on the
responsibility of a Commander-in-Chief.
This collection shall only take place, as far as possible, in
accordance with the rules in existence and the assessment of taxes in
force.
For every payment a receipt shall be given to the taxpayer.

Article 52

Neither requisitions in kind nor services can be demanded from
communes or inhabitants except for the necessities of the army of
occupation. They must be in proportion to the resources of the country,
and of such a nature as not to involve the population in the obligation
of taking part in military operations against their country.
These requisitions and services shall only be demanded on the
authority of the Commander in the locality occupied.
The contributions in kind shall, as far as possible, be paid for in
ready money; if not, their receipt shall be acknowledged.

Article 53

An army of occupation can only take possession of the cash, funds, and
property liable to requisition belonging strictly to the State, depots of
arms, means of transport, stores and supplies, and, generally, all
movable property of the State which may be used for military operations.
Railway plant, land telegraphs, telephones, steamers, and other ships,
apart from cases governed by maritime law, as well as depots of arms and,
generally, all kinds of war material, even though belonging to Companies
or to private persons, are likewise material which may serve for military
operations, but they must be restored at the conclusion of peace, and
indemnities paid for them.

Article 54

The plant of railways coming from neutral States, whether the property
of those States, or of Companies, or of private persons, shall be sent
back to them as soon as possible.

Article 55

The occupying State shall only be regarded as administrator and
usufructuary of the public buildings, real property, forests, and
agricultural works belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the
occupied country. It must protect the capital of these properties, and
administer it according to the rules of usufruct.

Article 56

The property of the communes, that of religious, charitable, and
educational institutions, and those of arts and science, even when State
property, shall be treated as private property.
All seizure of, and destruction, or intentional damage done to such
institutions, to historical monuments, works of art or science, is
prohibited, and should be made the subject of proceedings.


SECTION IV. -- ON THE INTERNMENT OF BELLIGERENTS
AND THE CARE OF THE WOUNDED IN NEUTRAL COUNTRIES

Article 57

A neutral State which receives in its territory troops belonging to
the belligerent armies shall intern them, as far as possible, at a
distance from the theatre of war.
It can keep them in camps, and even confine them in fortresses or
locations assigned for this purpose.
It shall decide whether officers may be left at liberty on giving
their parole that they will not leave the neutral territory without
authorization.

Article 58

Failing a special Convention, the neutral State shall supply the
interned with the food, clothing, and relief required by humanity.
At the conclusion of peace, the expenses caused by the internment
shall be made good.

Article 59

A neutral State may authorize the passage through its territory of
wounded or sick belonging to the belligerent armies, on condition that
the trains bringing them shall carry neither combatants nor war material.
In such a case, the neutral State is bound to adopt such measures of
safety and control as may be necessary for the purpose.
Wounded and sick brought under these conditions into neutral territory
by one of the belligerents, and belonging to the hostile party, must be
guarded by the neutral State, so as to insure their not taking part again
in the military operations. The same duty shall devolve on the neutral
State with regard to wounded or sick of the other army who may be
committed to its care.

Article 60

The Geneva Convention applies to sick and wounded interned in neutral
territory.

================================================== =====================
An electronic publication of the MULTILATERALS PROJECT, Fletcher School
of Law & Diplomacy --- http://www.tufts.edu/fletcher/multilaterals.html
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Old June 8, 2000, 04:56   #2
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Long legal document, eyes closing, must fight...

I like the idea of implementing some form of conventions of war. However, it should be tied to the tech tree. It can't happen until certain forms of government and/or religion have been developed - mercy requires the development of a conscience. Perhaps make it a wonder?
 
Old June 8, 2000, 11:35   #3
agent4043
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you think our conscious is a technology development of sorts? I'd strongly disagree but that comes from my religious background. Although I would agree that official convention's should be tied to the tech tree once society has reached the point where the people who follow their conscious have enough influence on the government that it appears the government has a conscious. I believe individuals have always had a God given conscious but that's another thread in another forum.
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Old June 8, 2000, 15:31   #4
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quote:

Originally posted by abuzayd on 06-08-2000 12:48 PM
prisoners of war, something that doesn't appear in civ.


Something that doesn't, but should!

The thing you were talking about from SMAC could could tie in with the treatement of POWs. (For example: Imprisonment = OK...Forced Labor = bad...mass murder = VERY BAD) There should be a time (like during a Polythiestic religion or something) that POWs can be killed as "Human Sacrifices", which makes your citizens happy. (Example: Aztec and Mayan empires used Human Sacrifice before 1500s and Spanish conquest)

Thoughts?

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[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited June 08, 2000).]
 
Old June 8, 2000, 16:12   #5
N_A
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The one thing about war that I think has been missing from the other games, is that war should not always have to be about conquest. It can be about resolving conflicts, or enforcing treaties, etc. So occupation of a nation is only needed until you accomplish a goal, reach an agreement, etc.
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Old June 8, 2000, 18:54   #6
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People need a mind, the populous won't fight a war they don't know what they are fighting for. You need to have a doctrine or something with a declaration of war with set objectives. People don't want to fight a 10 year war, just capture their capital and kick them out of our ally's country. Or capture this, or reduce industry to 20%.

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Old June 8, 2000, 23:57   #7
abuzayd
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quote:

Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-08-2000 03:31 PM
The thing you were talking about from SMAC could could tie in with the treatement of POWs. (For example: Imprisonment = OK...Forced Labor = bad...mass murder = VERY BAD)



How would the POWs actually be reflected in gameplay, though? Would it mean introducing some kind of moral model (units surrendering themselves??)

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Old June 9, 2000, 00:48   #8
abuzayd
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the irony of course being that this document stands at the beginning of the bloodiest century in human history... lest than twenty years from when it was signed teenagers were dying by the millions in the bloodsoaked trenches of eastern France...

i'm curious how the Geneva convention would be reflected in Civ, though. as far as I understand it (sorry, i couldn't bring myself to actually read the posted text ), the convention governs the treatment of prisoners of war, something that doesn't appear in civ.

SMAC afficionados know that the "UN Convention on Human Rights" pops up from time to time when you want to do certain actions that are considered atrocities -- obliterating a city is one of them. Of course, the convention almost always get repealed when Yang and Sister Miriam get powerful. but, anyway, it might be possible to have something like that in civ.

Regarding international treaties and governance in general, it seems to me that part of the problem is the way civ is structured. As a model of what "civilization" is, civ uses what you might call the 19th and 20th century model of the nation state: a civilization is a uniform linguistic, ethnic, economic, and political unit. This, of course, reflects reality only in a rather limited fashion. The Roman empire was incredibly diverse and polyglot, not only this, but the definition of what "Roman" meant shifted from a purely ethnic (almost municipal) designation to something entirely different. Both the Byzantine and the Holy Roman Empires considered themselves in some way the continuation of the Roman Empire, yet the population of neither spoke Latin as a vernacular.

As it was, so it shall be; and it seems to me that the notion of the nation-state won't be around much longer in the 21st century. Economic factions -- inherently global in outlook and ambition -- wield more actual power than many governments these days. And, of course, there's always the question of whether the U.N. will actually, as so many midwestern militia groups fear, begin to wield real governing power at some point in the future.

My point is, that in civ, the object in civ *is* to unite the entire world under one flag: yours. How do you work the notion of increasing internationalization of government into this scheme, and still make it a playable game??
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Old June 9, 2000, 10:37   #9
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Capturing units - hmmm that's not a bad idea. Why does everyone have to die when they lose a battle, maybe after you destroy a rival unit you recieve P.O.W.s in your nearest city and depending on what you do with them, they can increase happiness (sacrifice), production (slaves), etc. Could be used in settlement of war. Could also make the rival civ's city recieve discontent. Could cause a push in that Civ to end the war. I suppose there are lots of directions to go with this, any comments?

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Old June 9, 2000, 16:15   #10
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Okay, I know this is totally off topic, but has anyone else noticed that this thread (and only this thread) is wider than their browser window?

Any idea why?
 
Old June 9, 2000, 18:40   #11
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I don't get a wider window, but in other threads it's because of the title of the thread, its all on one line and streches out a bunch in some. SI thread does it to me.

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Old June 9, 2000, 22:22   #12
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Spekter - YES! Infact I was wondering if anyone else noticed! Weird eh? I guess Par explained it...

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Old June 10, 2000, 00:31   #13
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also if you have a really long word like say
aaaahx100 that will the the window really long and the other text moves to fit it so it is really hard to read.

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Old June 10, 2000, 05:47   #14
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Sorry am getting off track still - but this thread title is fine for me 1024x768 in IE5.

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Old June 10, 2000, 15:55   #15
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Okay, I figured it out. It's a combination of the font size I'm using (we old farts can't read all that little typing) and all those damn === in Dalgetti's initial post

Jumping back a bit, I think agent4043 misunderstood my first post. I wasn't trying to say that conscience should be a technology, but rather that people tend to be selfish bastards until their laws and/or beliefs have evolved to a certain point. For example, the Aztecs routinely slaughtered all prisoners of war in religious ceremonies. That was the only reason prisoners were taken. It wasn't merciful; it was convenient. If you had prisoners who could be slaughtered, it meant that you didn't have to kill your own people to fulfill your religious obligations. Can you see a civ at this stage of development going for a war convention of some sort?

quote:

The one thing about war that I think has been missing from the other games, is that war should not always have to be about conquest. It can be about resolving conflicts, or enforcing treaties, etc. So occupation of a nation is only needed until you accomplish a goal, reach an agreement, etc.


This is a neat idea. You should have to state your goals in a declaration of war. If you don't obtain or at least make progress towards obtaining these goals, your people will support the war less and less. Eventually congress or the senate or your nobles or whatever make peace behind your back. Ideally, your government should be overthrown at that point to enable this to happen.

As for capturing units, I think that anytime you attack a unit whose condition is in the red, they surrender instead of being wiped out. Ideally, if you treat prisoners well enough (or brainwash them sufficiently if you use some of the city improvements from SMAC), they might change sides at some point.
 
Old June 10, 2000, 23:33   #16
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The Aztec ritual of human sacrifice was not convenient. It was religious. it was to appease the God's, not to extreminate a rival race.

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Old June 10, 2000, 23:40   #17
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I'm glad I'm not an Aztec POW I don't want my heart ripped out while its still beating then be thrown down the huge pyramid.

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Old June 10, 2000, 23:43   #18
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Wow Par, you know about Aztec rituals? Pretty sick stuff. Glad to be an American (not really, but I'd rather be an American than a Aztec POW. I'd rather be Jewish in a Nazi camp than be an Aztec POW)

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Old June 13, 2000, 04:04   #19
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Apolyton.net , I'm back ! ok I haven't been to here for some time now , but now I am fully operational again .
Really sorry for that long legal stuff ... but I guess that if I want to make a point I won't be able to just do it with : " hmmp... like that ... eeee .... for example .. eee... " so I just did that copy paste ritual .... hmmmp ... makes me think ... maybe I should just place links next time :/

quote:

Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-10-2000 11:43 PM. I'd rather be Jewish in a Nazi camp than be an Aztec POW)




1)
2) well gasing to death and making you tear your neck in a vain attempt of grasping an unexisting tip of air isn't much better of lying tied and feeling the enourmous pain of a power that turns your own body , YOU , into ashes.( wow what a description ..brrrr)

but about the topic . you should be able to send POWs , and regular prisoners and transform them into... like formers . can build , but cant settle ... or maybe they could even settle ... like Ozies ( austalians )

P.S. off-topic : England-Portugal 2:3 . a great game it was , right ?

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Old June 13, 2000, 11:37   #20
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quote:


The Aztec ritual of human sacrifice was not convenient. It was religious. it was to appease the God's, not to extreminate a rival race.



This is true; bloodletting formed a very important part of both the Aztec and Mayan religious life. Human sacrifice was but an extreme (and highly public) form of this; there was also lots of personal bloodletting going on as a form of piety. The king, for example, was supposed to draw his own blood in a number of ceremonies, often by perforating his own genitalia. For a good book on this in the ritual life of the Maya, see Freidel, Schele, and Parker's Maya cosmos.

In fact, in the case of Aztecs, I believe, the need for sacrificial victims grew so much that they would start wars just to get more of them.

Back to the subject of POWs, I'm still not sure how this could be reflected in Civ-3 without enacting some radical changes to the way combat works. Units would have to have some kind of morale rating, which, when it became too low, would cause them to surrender. Would that fit w/the strategic scale of Civ??
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Old June 13, 2000, 13:24   #21
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That's exactly what I was had imagined, only expand it and take that slave and give some options..

1) Return to Civ (after a cease fire or peace treaty)
2) Human Sacrifice (good in beginning, bad at end)
3) POW (extra production)

Thanks for the info Quartz!

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Old June 14, 2000, 00:06   #22
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Dalgetti - let me start by apologizing. I meant no disrespect to the horrible death that many Jewish (and other) people found in Nazi Germany. I have done a lot of research on the subject and I meant no disrespect. "Night" is a great first hand look at the horrors of the camps. I didn't want you to get the wrong idea, I'm not ignorant.

Abyzayd - yes, I understand that it may be a hard concept to implement in Civ 3, so maybe it's not the right time. But if Firaxis was considering a radical change in the war element of the game, I would definitely suggest including it. Glad to see you know your stuff about Aztecs and Mayans. I'm fascinated by it (among many other things in History) Any comments on the morale/POW topic?



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Old June 14, 2000, 00:49   #23
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CTP has the trick early game trick of including a slaver in your armies. When you win a battle, each enemy unit turns into a slave at your nearest city.
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Old June 14, 2000, 17:38   #24
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Quartz -- I'm not familiar with CTP, so could you (or anyone) maybe clarify how a slave functions in that game? Free production??

OrangeSfwr -- Now that I think about it, in SMAC, they've got a pretty complex morale model, and you have a chance of capturing some (alien) units, which I think is determined by morale. Maybe a simple solution would be to make it so that in every combat there is a chance (determined by the morale of the defending unit) that the unit will be captured instead of destroyed. Then, as you suggest, the player would have a choice as to what to do with the units:

(1) enslave them (requires advance "Slave system", functions like CTP).

(2) human sacrifice (requires advance "Blood sacrifice" increases morale of city??)

(3) POW (requires "Geneva convention" ... units returned at end of hostilities)

I think the Geneva convention should be neither advance nor wonder, but something actually worked out diplomatically among the players (see the Planetary Council in SMAC). Of course, failure to sign on would mean that your units would become slaves... something like that happened to Russian soldiers in the Second World War, because Stalin refused to recognize the Convention.

p.s. my interest in Mayan stuff came out of reading the Popol Vuh... what a weird, cool, story!
[This message has been edited by abuzayd (edited June 14, 2000).]
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Old June 14, 2000, 17:54   #25
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quote:

Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-13-2000 12:06 PM
Dalgetti - let me start by apologizing. I meant no disrespect to the horrible death that many Jewish (and other) people found in Nazi Germany. I have done a lot of research on the subject and I meant no disrespect. "Night" is a great first hand look at the horrors of the camps. I didn't want you to get the wrong idea, I'm not ignorant.





oh ... no need apologize . from meeting you in the other threads I know you ain't that kinda guy . but thnx anyway.

about that ritual sacrifise thing as I know it was made in such small scales ( of POWs , anyway ) that it isn't worth mentioning . if even 1 human sacrifice is made during the day how can that affect a whole CIV ?

PoWs should be placed in camps and make some things.... like working in the fields in the mines etc.


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Slaves in CTP :
slaves are captured by slavers from unwalled cities or settler unit . slaves are also taken when a slaver is present during the fight in the Victor's army. the slaves are the transferred to the closest city that can accept them. the only problem with getting slaves is that each 3 slaves demand 1 military unit to guard them . if that military unit leaves a slave revolt occurs.
[This message has been edited by Dalgetti (edited June 14, 2000).]
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Old June 14, 2000, 18:26   #26
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Because Civ is turned based, and each turn is about 100 years (in the beginning when human sacrifice would be more predominant), human sacrifice would be beneficial to primitive civs because a massive number of people could be killed in that time period. It would only add one happiness when you do it, and it would only last for that turn (basically increasing tax and luxury output?) But there should be a system for it and I agree that it might not be used that often in the game. More likely POWs will become slaves or be held to affect other civ cities, causing discontent and revolt.

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Old June 17, 2000, 06:20   #27
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well I thought about that idea again , and i just keep imagining this pic over and over again ....
upkeep cost = temple :
1 gold
1 PoW

that's kinda scary ......

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Old June 18, 2000, 10:15   #28
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Why not tying those "enslave/sacrifice/pow" actions to some technologies? (i think it's already mentioned above, but i just wanted to repeat it ;-))
The idea of reaching International Laws by diplomacy sounds not bad, tough. Why not dealing with this like in SMAC:
e.g. by researching "Advanced Military Algorithms", you gain the ability of getting rid of the UN Charta
Why not turning this effect into reverse and make, lets say, a technology like "International Conventions" (just an idea), and by researching this technology you gain the ability of signing multi-national contracts concerning the abolition of slavery/sacrifice. (and maybe also the returning of slaves or PoWs to their civ)
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Old June 21, 2000, 11:50   #29
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quote:

Why not turning this effect into reverse and make, lets say, a technology like "International Conventions" (just an idea), and by researching this technology you gain the ability of signing multi-national contracts concerning the abolition of slavery/sacrifice.


Great idea -- perhaps "Internationalism" (??) But a question: would every civ need this to convene a "League of Nations" or only one?

I could picture a situation in which only two or three civs are advanced enough to acquire "Internationalism," and start dictating things for the rest.... like the Paris treaty at the end of WWI.
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Old May 12, 2001, 17:15   #30
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blah, many ideas posted by crazy people which haven't been driven to the fullest.
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