Foreign Relations 101

notyoueither · May 17, 2002, 03:24

"Excuse me sir, but we have a lack of intelligence. The rest of the world seems to have caught up to us and now have Tanks. Don't you think it would be wise to plant some spies to see where the Persians, Babylonians, Aztecs, and Americans stand in the way of forces compared to us?"

Yes. Well, I'm a bit focused on ridding the world of the Greek scourge. Didn't notice. Oh well, do as you will.

"Very good sir."

...

"Sir?"

Yes, what is it? Can't you see that I am busy moving our armoured legions into position to liberate Athens?

"Yes sir, but it seems..."

Well, what is it?

"Well Caesar, it seems that our spies found easy access to the Aztec and Persian capitals."

Very good then. Leave me alone to go about my business.

"But sir..."

What?!

"It seems that out agents in Washington and Babylon were caught. It also seems as if Lincoln and Hammurabi were less than pleased. It also seems that we are now at war with America and Babylon. That's all."

!!!

"But sir..."

Nevermind! I'll handle it.

...

It is easy to find yourself at war. You do not have to do anything, it will come looking for you from time to time. The difference between victory and defeat will often be determined not by what your beautifully uniformed armies may do, but by how your diplomats perform once hostilities commence.

The staged conversation occurs as I, the glory of Rome, am pummeling Alexander into oblivion. Rome is on a continent with Greece and the remnants of Egypt. The Iroquois from our continent were previously snuffed. The other major continent is peopled by the Aztecs, Americans, Babs, and Persians. They are all roughly equal. War never seems to have broken out over there.

I notice that everyone now has Tanks. I also notice that I have neglected to place spies in any capitals. So I decide, Caesar want spys, Caesar get spys. Good plan. The downside of the good plan is that I find myself at war with two more powers in addition to the Greeks.

Rome is a Republic, as it should be. So far we have not experienced any war weariness despite a lengthy period of active warfare in which we have captured many Greek cities. We have not experienced WW due to the fact that we move slowly and deliberately. We avoid situations where we will suffer many casualties. We believe that these factors will keep the citizens of the Republic content, and so far they have. 0 WW after many, many, many turns of war.

Now Rome finds itself in a pickle. The Americans and the Babs will surely send forces to invade Roman territory and bombard our land. Furthermore, they will surely enlist the Aztecs and the Persians. In that case we will be at war with the entire world. Even though Caesar is brilliant on the field and could overcome these odds, we are certain that the citizens of the Republic would grow weary of war.

So how does Rome get out of the pickle? Well... It cost 1 Ivory to get Montezuma to attack the Americans. It cost 1 Spice to get Xerxes to attack the Babs. During the following AI sequence of turns, war breaks out between the Aztecs and the Babs as well as between the Persians and Americans. AI MPPs can work to your advantage

The whole peaceful continent is at war with itself. Aint it great? Now it is unlikely that we are going to see many, if any enemy units from 'over there' near our shores. Thus, although our inept spies dumped us in the sauce, our diplomats saved the situation in short order.

The lesson? You be the judge.

Jethro83 · May 17, 2002, 04:55

Great story. I agree with the lesson here.

I've done the same sorts of things to help me in war. It helps in more situations than just war weariness.

LaRusso · May 17, 2002, 04:57

yes, i've learned that lesson too. pay as much as necessary to get an ally if you are puny and miserable. also, it's better to pay a lot to a proxy than to keep 12 jet fighters all over the invasion coast.

notyoueither · May 17, 2002, 05:07

Whether puny or grand, it is better to be 1 of 5, rather than 1 against 5.

Or in this case, 1 of 3 rather than 1 against 5.

Harovan · May 17, 2002, 05:18

Yeah. It's fun to stick the torch in the haystack and 20 turns later go away whistling. A republic can stand this period without the WW getting annoying, and you will certainly get rid of a lot of competitors. Especially if the haystack is on another continent. Later do all to prolongue the conflict. Determine the loser. Sell him the ressources he needs. If one gets too strong, send expeditional forces to cut him down, but only after making sure you can make enough allies. Again 20 turns of war. Rinse, repeat.

Nym · May 17, 2002, 06:39

I experienced it too. I tried to place spies everywhere and so got a war against Persia, which was certainly the most powerful civ. Selling some techs (it is useful to have tech lead) or luxuries, I succeed in putting all other civs in the war against Persia.
The only wrong thing I did was to conclude peace with Persia about 5 turns later. Other civs did not really pardon me.

The Viceroy · May 17, 2002, 07:01

Excellent story, and so so true ..

to add to those perls of wisdom .. the bit about war comming looking for you ..

If your faced with multiple intrusions, and your sending the AI out of your territory each turn .. then one of them plucks up the courage to declare war .. BEWARE ... the others will also .. so, let there silly units through, and smash your enemy .. and when they crawl for forgiveness .. crush the next intruder . .and so on ..

Unless of course, your happy to go for World War

..

campmajor! · May 17, 2002, 07:59

Hm, in my latest game I was on a continent with the Americans and the Russians. I was a bit puny, so the Yanks wanted tribute from me. At first I gave in, but at the same time I created a large army. I was the Babs, so I made a lot of bowmen. The Russians also wanted tribute, but were further away than the Americans, so I did not give in to them. They declared war but were so far away that I did not notice it a lot.

Once I thought I was strong enough, I refused tribute, so I got a war with the Americans. It was tough at first because they had a lot of units as well (and had iron and I did not), but I managed to keep them off and later conquer a lot of cities of them. With the Russians I made peace, because I came nearer to them. Also I let them declare war to the Americans, so Abe was down to his knees!

To prevend cities to flip back to Abe, I finally took the last city as well. And there I was after a lot of years of war. Under a Monarchy gov, where others were democracies....

Once again (in most of my games it happens more or less) I was behind in tech. Which reminds me: Why did Firaxis remove the rule that let you aquire tech by conquering cities?

So the Greeks, Egyptians and English on the other continent were very far ahead in tech. Also the Russians were somewhat ahead. So I formed a democratic gov and started closing in on tech. Also I traded a lot with the other civs. I had some resources and some money, but not enough to aquire all tech. Most former American cities suffered a lot of corruption (this is 1.16f, mind you), so the treasury was not so good...

But on the other hand, the Russians were much stronger than I am and started to ask for tribute again. Same story all over again as with the Americans. I gave in, but increased my forces. But I was far behind because I was still weak compared to them according to the mil advisor.

Once he said we were average compared to them I stopped giving in to them and it became war again. But I forgot one thing: by this time they gained cavalry tech and thus had cossacks...

Personally I like the cossack unit a lot, but this time I was on the other side...

So a long war started. At first I could not answer their brute force, so I lost property. Only with setting all production to building mil units, I could contain them. But I could not get any further as well. Then I dicovered Nationalism and drafted the hell out of me! That worked good enough to be able to make a line of units which they could not penetrate through. But I still could not attack them as well. I named this stage WW1 because it was a trench-type of war. All this time the Russians were not willing to even speak to me.

At this time the war weariness became too high, it sucked up all my money and science since I was forced to set the lux to about 60/70%. Finally the Russians allowed a conversation. So I did a great effort to stop the war and they gave in.

By this time it became clear that the Greeks were very developed. And very far away.... On that continent it was all settled, the Egyps, the English and the Greeks were at good terms with each other and the Aztecs were small, but also at peace with them.

In this short period I continued to build up my army, but also tried to gain tech by all means possible.

I also tried to gain a lot of resources, but they made me pay a lot....

Then I lost one of my captured cities back to the Russians, so I declared war upon them again. This time I had a lot of cav and inf, so I was able to slowly gain terrain. This time I razed most cities, so the Russians could not get them back by culture.

During this war (I called this one WW2) I also got the English and the Egyps to make an MPP with me, so they declared war upon the Russians as well. Though it was mainly off-shore bombing it still helped me to totally wipe out the Russians eventually.

So here I was, with a large continent mainly in my hands and the other parts populated by my friends (although I kept their prop surrounded by inf to keep them from sending settlers to razed territory).

Suddenly the Greek start building the Apollo Program and soon after that they build it. Followed by building parts...

So I had to do something and sent out a spy to the Greek. It got captured and they started a war with me. But I still had an MPP with the English and Cleo, so they declared war on the Greeks!

The problem was that they were not as powerful as the Greeks are, so they lost infrastructure. Also the Greeks had an MPP with the Aztecs, so they joined in. You could consider this one as WW3. I still had a lot of units from the war against the Russians, so I made a lot of transports and battleships and sent out a large fleet to the Greeks, but they are a bit far away, so it takes 6 turns to get there....

Now they take the land of the Aztecs, but the Greeks are very strong...

This is where I am at the monent. My problem is if I will be in time to keep them from completing the Space ship. I guess it will take a while before I have their territority captured....

It was not an option for me to set the AI civs up against each other because:
a. My resources are limited;
b. The Greeks are much more powerful than the other ones;
c. The Greeks do not like me...

Jon Shafer · May 17, 2002, 08:34

Just find the city they're building stuff in, and blow it up.

As far as the gaining techs by capturing cities, Firaxis probably thought the problem was similar to the reforestation/chop down cheat for shields, and decided it was too much of a benefit to warmongers (after all, we're trying to tone down on war in this game right?

). That's my theory at least.

bigvic · May 17, 2002, 09:26

2 things to say here.

1. Is it just me or do AI's get way bent out of shape over foiled plant spy missions. Kind of makes the whole thing pointless. I mean, if you are going for a UN victory, well, you piss everyone off. I usually spy only on those already pissy.

2. Wow. Just can't win w/ the Frenchies. Seem like they should be pretty solid, comm./ind. and all. In my mod, muskateers are awesome, 5/4/1 (I've upped all UU's), but I just can't get to that stage in a position to use them for anything more than staying alive. Getting on my nerves. For some reason they seem to get early exploratory warriors killed in droves, by tormenting barbarians, who seem to hit Frenchie w/ especial gusto. Then all sorts of stupid crap goes down.
On top of that, everytime it seems I may have overcome the "frog curse" I do something stupid and ruin it for the pinko legions myself. Last game, for instance, I start on a typically crappy island. I'm playing "iron man", monarch, raging barbarians, 16 civs on large world, random everything else, trying to keep the game moving. So at first I play a nearly flawless game, placeing cities perfectly, following solid research path, snagging a couple of early wonders, establishing bases on the main continent. Hell, I even manage to build a solid Napoleanic force of muskateer, cavalry, riflemen, cannon. Then, late at night, I do something abysmally stupid. I follow my roommate's advice and make a mutual protection pact. True to form, the frog curse kicks in next turn and the AI dogpiles the *******s I allied w/ (the English).

Watch out w/ those damned things. From a position of power, they can win the game, but... I had lurked mid position the whole game til then, but w/in a few turns the AI had flattened all my coastal improvements and reduced my well balanced force to a desperate holding force, isolated on the campaigning continent due to the cheatass freakin sinking of my entire freakin fleet, and hordes of cheatass freakin ai units were swarming in. Yep. Frogs suck. If they don't lose my game, I will

Stuie · May 17, 2002, 11:01

My current game has put all my foreign relations skills to the test. I started as a random civ, and ended up with the pinkies... er, I mean the French. First time playing them. I chose large continents with maximum land mass possible.

So I try to quickly establish some cities and such, thinking I'll go for culture for once (even though the French aren't really suited to this task). After some time, I have met all my neighbors on the continent, which turns out to be a supercontinent with eleven civs, and I'm smack dab in the middle. My neighbors, clockwise from the north, are the Persians, Zulus, Iroquois, Aztecs, Greeks, Americans, English, Romans, Egypt, and the Indians. Early on the Americans demand some bauble or other, I refuse, and war is declared. I immediately contact the Aztecs, Greeks, Romans and Egyptians and soon we are all fighting the Americans. This cost my various trade goods - some techs (luckily I was slightly ahead), some cash, and some resources/luxury items. I always tried to provide strategic resources or techs that would boost the civs ability to fight the Americans without endangering me in the future. Anyway, I didn't even bother sending any troops into the fray, since the other four were keeping Abe busy. Instead I continued to concentrate on infrastructure and techs.

Then the Persians came calling with their demands. Again, I refuse, they declare war. This time I empower the Indians, Zulu (have to be careful there) and Iroquois to fight my war. This one goes slightly worse, as the Persians actually take one of my northern cities, so I send enough troops to retake the city, and then return to development while my proxies pound on the Persians.

Once both wars are concluded (after about 20 turns), I have gone further ahead in techs and culture, and everyone loves me except the rump-Persian state and the English (whom I never enlisted). Rome is fighting the English so I feed Caesar some resources/techs to keep Bitty under control. Oh, and the Americans are gone. Then I start acquiring my former allies' cities through culture. Apparently this disturbs the Egyptians (well, that I the city I built on the ruins of Buffalo to grab some ivory...) and a pile of their swordsmen show up on my doorstep. I try to calm Cleo down with a trade, but next turn she tosses down the gauntlet and on come her swordsmen. I lose my ivory city immediately. Hmph. So I contact the Indians, Romans, Greeks and Aztecs, and for the usual compensation they fight my war for me while I quickly reestablish my ivory town. During this war, I send galley after galley to the bottom of the ocean in an attempt to find the other continent. Success rewards me with exclusive contact with the Germans, Babylonians, Chinese, Russians and Japan.

Toward the end of the war, the previously gracious Zulu brought their demands (contact with the Germans - yeah, that would be a great combination) to my table, so I enlisted everyone except the English and Egyptians to fight them, and through in Right of Passage to boot. I went to these extreme measures for two reasons: the Zulu were mildly strong thanks to my bribes over the years, and I wanted Zimbabwe because they had built Sun Tzu and the Pyramids there. So I focused on these tight objectives - straight line to Zimbabwe, while the other AIs tied up the Zulus in other regions. Worked like a charm and I took their capital this morning before coming to work.

Anyway, if you can get a slight edge on the tech race, don't be afraid to trade some away to drag the AI Civs into wars. The AI will focus on the war, and you are free to build and research.

Jawa Jocky · May 17, 2002, 11:15

I have used notyoueither's strategy too. It does have one downside.

Everytime I meddle in the affairs on another continent that has a stalemate, I end up making a rival superpower. That is to say somebody always seems to win the war and gain control of the entire continent.

This could make an overseas invasion more difficult. Personally I'm too lazy to attack big enemies overseas, but people going for domination should keep this in mind.

bigvic · May 17, 2002, 12:18

Ok, went home to get something off my computer and couldn't resist...Started a new game w/ frenchies, 16 civs on standard world, monarch, large continents landmasses, normal everything else, raging hordes. Did speed play. Don't want to curse myself, but looks like I'm kicking some @$$!!! Got plopped on the coast, managed to secure two each of iron and horses, varied terrain consisting of everything but jungle and tundra (AWW man

), and two types of luxuries in decent quantity...in other words too good to be true! I suspect I will probably find myself devoid of saltpeter or coal, or something absurd like that (saltpeter the worse, though, of course - w/ saltpeter I WILL have coal

). Diplomatically going well, got rop's w/ all neighbors - aztecs, americans, russians, english, japs, babs, zulu, in roughly that order of distance. Aztecs have been pushy, had to swallow pride & cave in to a demand early, but have managed to build a nice military, trading w/em, now seems to be smooth sailing. I even built the colossus, which is solid in my mod, never going away and giving offshore platform sea minerals. Must play machiavellian diplomacy! No stupid mmp's w/ chumps! No finger farts this time!!!!!

BTW, In my American game, I'm right proud of having eliminated my co-continentals (aztecs, iroqois, indians - no small feat for the early game UU challenged gringos). Also managed to visciously slaughter every intrisive diahretic settler the frenchies, chinese, babs and someone else who escapes me now squirted onto MY continent before I sewed it up. Ended up w/ 3 armies and all requisite small military wonders. Anyway, was proud of the way I have become the puppetmaster ("Pull ze strings! Pull ze strings!) by teching up and subsidizing the weaklings.

Panag · May 17, 2002, 15:10

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
"Excuse me sir, but we have a lack of intelligence. The rest of the world seems to have caught up to us and now have Tanks. Don't you think it would be wise to plant some spies to see where the Persians, Babylonians, Aztecs, and Americans stand in the way of forces compared to us?"

Yes. Well, I'm a bit focused on ridding the world of the Greek scourge. Didn't notice. Oh well, do as you will.

"Very good sir."

...

"Sir?"

Yes, what is it? Can't you see that I am busy moving our armoured legions into position to liberate Athens?

"Yes sir, but it seems..."

Well, what is it?

"Well Caesar, it seems that our spies found easy access to the Aztec and Persian capitals."

Very good then. Leave me alone to go about my business.

"But sir..."

What?!

"It seems that out agents in Washington and Babylon were caught. It also seems as if Lincoln and Hammurabi were less than pleased. It also seems that we are now at war with America and Babylon. That's all."

!!!

"But sir..."

Nevermind! I'll handle it.

...

It is easy to find yourself at war. You do not have to do anything, it will come looking for you from time to time. The difference between victory and defeat will often be determined not by what your beautifully uniformed armies may do, but by how your diplomats perform once hostilities commence.

The staged conversation occurs as I, the glory of Rome, am pummeling Alexander into oblivion. Rome is on a continent with Greece and the remnants of Egypt. The Iroquois from our continent were previously snuffed. The other major continent is peopled by the Aztecs, Americans, Babs, and Persians. They are all roughly equal. War never seems to have broken out over there.

I notice that everyone now has Tanks. I also notice that I have neglected to place spies in any capitals. So I decide, Caesar want spys, Caesar get spys. Good plan. The downside of the good plan is that I find myself at war with two more powers in addition to the Greeks.

Rome is a Republic, as it should be. So far we have not experienced any war weariness despite a lengthy period of active warfare in which we have captured many Greek cities. We have not experienced WW due to the fact that we move slowly and deliberately. We avoid situations where we will suffer many casualties. We believe that these factors will keep the citizens of the Republic content, and so far they have. 0 WW after many, many, many turns of war.

Now Rome finds itself in a pickle. The Americans and the Babs will surely send forces to invade Roman territory and bombard our land. Furthermore, they will surely enlist the Aztecs and the Persians. In that case we will be at war with the entire world. Even though Caesar is brilliant on the field and could overcome these odds, we are certain that the citizens of the Republic would grow weary of war.

So how does Rome get out of the pickle? Well... It cost 1 Ivory to get Montezuma to attack the Americans. It cost 1 Spice to get Xerxes to attack the Babs. During the following AI sequence of turns, war breaks out between the Aztecs and the Babs as well as between the Persians and Americans. AI MPPs can work to your advantage

The whole peaceful continent is at war with itself. Aint it great? Now it is unlikely that we are going to see many, if any enemy units from 'over there' near our shores. Thus, although our inept spies dumped us in the sauce, our diplomats saved the situation in short order.

The lesson? You be the judge.

hi ,

Notyoueither what is going on between you and Ceasar , ......

the lesson , well , RES NON VERBA , ........

foreign relations are build on the strenght and power of one's army , .......
war as a whole is a continuation of politics , not to mention the relationship's with other nations , ......

have a nice day

notyoueither · May 18, 2002, 04:07

What are you on about Panag? I am Caesar!

Do I have a thing with myself? Well, you can never love another...

Panag · May 18, 2002, 13:27

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
What are you on about Panag? I am Caesar!

Do I have a thing with myself? Well, you can never love another...

hi ,

oh , you ARE Ceasar , hmmm , now i get it , .....this explains a lot , .....

okay back to the topic ; there should be a way to cancel foreign relations but keep trade going , .............and that embassy , grrrrrrrrr , there should be a way to close it , .....

have a nice day

Jaybe · May 19, 2002, 00:40

It is easier to successfully plant spies within your civ 'grouping' (e.g., Americans, Iroquois, Aztecs).

Panag · May 19, 2002, 12:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe
It is easier to successfully plant spies within your civ 'grouping' (e.g., Americans, Iroquois, Aztecs).

hi ,

maybe because they are "nextdoor" , .........?

have a nice day

Jaybe · May 19, 2002, 14:03

panag,
No, because they are supposedly 'friendlier'.
If I was the French, I would be more willing to plant a spy with the 'friendlier' Germans or English than with the Iroquois or Chinese.

Unless, of course, I was HOPING to trigger a war!

have a better day,

JB

Panag · May 19, 2002, 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe
panag,
No, because they are supposedly 'friendlier'.
have a better day,

JB

hi ,

friendly , ahem , ...........Iro an Azt , pffff , when you have more power yes , if not , they walk all over you , after a war , they tend to be a bit more friendly , even asking for mutual protection and so , .....that is if you win that war of course , ...........

have a nice day

MiloMilo · May 19, 2002, 16:17

bigvic, I think that your game is cursed, not the french. The Frenchies have become possibly my favorite civ. Love those super fast workers, and commercial really helps w/ money and corrution. But what really made my current game is their UU. In terms of strength they're not really different from musketmen, but their timing could not be more perfect. With an early-middle ages golden age, they made it possible for me to snag a tech lead (finally) and Copernicus', J.S. Bach's, Adam Smith's, AND Magellan's Voyage. These should keep me cloase to the other world powers into the endgame.

bigvic · May 20, 2002, 09:42

Quote:

Originally posted by MiloMilo
bigvic, I think that your game is cursed, not the french. The Frenchies have become possibly my favorite civ. Love those super fast workers, and commercial really helps w/ money and corrution. But what really made my current game is their UU. In terms of strength they're not really different from musketmen, but their timing could not be more perfect. With an early-middle ages golden age, they made it possible for me to snag a tech lead (finally) and Copernicus', J.S. Bach's, Adam Smith's, AND Magellan's Voyage. These should keep me cloase to the other world powers into the endgame.

Yeah, still playing the second french game I blabbered about. Wow! French rule, just like I thought they should. Guess I did have bad luck. Strange how that happens. W/ my mod, muskateers are truly awesome, 5-4-1 (yeah, I know, WHAT?, but its a long explanation, all UU's are upped in my mod, later more than early, as a reflection of % of increased values, etc). Managed to get to gunpowder intact, built true Napoleanic hordes of muskateers (like napoleanic guards/grenadiers), riflemen, cavalry, and a whole bunch of cannons. ThenI unleashed them onto the world!!!! Gonna win now, I know, so getting a bit tedious, but, wonder how I'll win?

Jon Shafer · May 20, 2002, 10:45

Napoleonic era is my favorite in history. I was fighting a game on regent on a real map of Europe as France, and somehow I got a tech lead (gotta figure out how I did that!), and ended up with Musketeers, cannons, and cavalry, and I invaded Britain.

Their swordsmen didn't have a chance, and I just marched up through London. It was great.

grapedog · May 20, 2002, 11:11

Ok, heres one I don't get, and I'm only playing on Warlord...

Large continent, random Civ's, I end up with at LEAST 6 neighbors. I managed to cut off the entire southern end of the continent for the most part by building cities across the breadth to keep people out. A greek and Aztec settler managed to get in so I let them build their tiny backwater cities and planned on crushing them with culture eventually but keeping the close cities with an extra 2 defenders just in case they get any ideas.

Now, whenever I trapse through another cultures land they give me the polite boot and I leave. Well Egypt was parading chariots around like no tomorrow, I think I saw more chariots than I did my own troops. Well, on the second warning they declare war on me. So ok, fine...I start pumping out Immortals and reinforcing my defenses on the front lines first. All new towns switch to barracks in case I need to pump out LOTS of immortals. The egyptian chariots(1.1.2) if am not mistaken crash themselves into my cities and basically no big issue, making more Immortals than I'm loosing. Stockpiling a few in invasion launch points for couter attacks. After about 10 turns Egypt is thoroughly frustrated apparently because they ally with the romans who from some ungodly hell pull out more Horseman than I have ever seen. I mean LOTS Of horseman, now the horseman are 1.1.2 as well from what I remember, and my immortals are 4.2.1 and all veterans or elites. Now, you would think that a veteran or elite Immortal would take out a horseman in single combat more often than a horseman taking out the Immortal, not so from my experience here. Been about 20 turns, still haven't lost a city but I am now having to spread defense around as their crappy horseman are traversing my roads to my lesser defended cities.

Ok, 30 turns about now, still no cities lost, losing infrastructure and troops but not gaining or losing any cities still...a war of what? Ok, Aztecs, my good buddies, I ally with them against the Babs and they ally with me against the Egyptians. Babs declare on me ans Aztecs go to work on the Egyptians for a bit. 5 turns later Egypt declares peace. Cool, but now the Babs have allied with the Greeks and went to war against me. So I'm still fighting the Babs, Greeks and Romans. A few turns later, nearing at least 40 turns the Egyptians offer contact to Germany with me. In the spirit of being a good neighbor and not wanted to get reattacked, 50gold is a small price to pay and I can extract that later anyhow. The turn after I get contact with the Germans, they sign a war alliance against me with the Babs....WTF? Now, to be honest, I've never seen a german troop so thats not too bad, but really, was it neccesary. The aztecs, after 20 turns eventually end our peace treaty. Apparently since I wasn't able to help at all, they were not happy. The turn after the treaty ended they declared war on me with the Greeks. I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do. I've lost one city that I took from the greek and one of my original ones. I have a juggernaut of about 10 Immortals razing Roman cities, but they have about 20 some odd Longbowman(4.1.1) and are just ripping through my pikemen/spearmen/immortals.

I've bought peace with the Greeks now too, but still the Romans, Aztecs and Babs are all railing hard on me. I'm sure if I wait long enough the Germans will come all too soon as well. I'd hate to be playing this on the Regent or worse setting.

My one lost original city is in Romans hands and my Immortals juggernaut is in Roman lands, so I'll see how many cities he needs to lose before he gives me peace AND my city back.

Panag · May 20, 2002, 11:26

Quote:

Originally posted by grapedog
Ok, heres one I don't get, and I'm only playing on Warlord...

Large continent, random Civ's, I end up with at LEAST 6 neighbors. I managed to cut off the entire southern end of the continent for the most part by building cities across the breadth to keep people out. A greek and Aztec settler managed to get in so I let them build their tiny backwater cities and planned on crushing them with culture eventually but keeping the close cities with an extra 2 defenders just in case they get any ideas.

Now, whenever I trapse through another cultures land they give me the polite boot and I leave. Well Egypt was parading chariots around like no tomorrow, I think I saw more chariots than I did my own troops. Well, on the second warning they declare war on me. So ok, fine...I start pumping out Immortals and reinforcing my defenses on the front lines first. All new towns switch to barracks in case I need to pump out LOTS of immortals. The egyptian chariots(1.1.2) if am not mistaken crash themselves into my cities and basically no big issue, making more Immortals than I'm loosing. Stockpiling a few in invasion launch points for couter attacks. After about 10 turns Egypt is thoroughly frustrated apparently because they ally with the romans who from some ungodly hell pull out more Horseman than I have ever seen. I mean LOTS Of horseman, now the horseman are 1.1.2 as well from what I remember, and my immortals are 4.2.1 and all veterans or elites. Now, you would think that a veteran or elite Immortal would take out a horseman in single combat more often than a horseman taking out the Immortal, not so from my experience here. Been about 20 turns, still haven't lost a city but I am now having to spread defense around as their crappy horseman are traversing my roads to my lesser defended cities.

Ok, 30 turns about now, still no cities lost, losing infrastructure and troops but not gaining or losing any cities still...a war of what? Ok, Aztecs, my good buddies, I ally with them against the Babs and they ally with me against the Egyptians. Babs declare on me ans Aztecs go to work on the Egyptians for a bit. 5 turns later Egypt declares peace. Cool, but now the Babs have allied with the Greeks and went to war against me. So I'm still fighting the Babs, Greeks and Romans. A few turns later, nearing at least 40 turns the Egyptians offer contact to Germany with me. In the spirit of being a good neighbor and not wanted to get reattacked, 50gold is a small price to pay and I can extract that later anyhow. The turn after I get contact with the Germans, they sign a war alliance against me with the Babs....WTF? Now, to be honest, I've never seen a german troop so thats not too bad, but really, was it neccesary. The aztecs, after 20 turns eventually end our peace treaty. Apparently since I wasn't able to help at all, they were not happy. The turn after the treaty ended they declared war on me with the Greeks. I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do. I've lost one city that I took from the greek and one of my original ones. I have a juggernaut of about 10 Immortals razing Roman cities, but they have about 20 some odd Longbowman(4.1.1) and are just ripping through my pikemen/spearmen/immortals.

I've bought peace with the Greeks now too, but still the Romans, Aztecs and Babs are all railing hard on me. I'm sure if I wait long enough the Germans will come all too soon as well. I'd hate to be playing this on the Regent or worse setting.

My one lost original city is in Romans hands and my Immortals juggernaut is in Roman lands, so I'll see how many cities he needs to lose before he gives me peace AND my city back.

hi ,

you know , it would be intresting to post that game , .........

have a nice day

grapedog · May 20, 2002, 12:13

Like a save file? Typically, how big are the save files for the game...unfortunately I'm at work right now, but if you would like me to I can when I get home. It's not a pretty sight.

I was polite with most of my neighbohrs for the longest time but I would not trade them any world/territory maps of my own, I guess thats why they decided to walk all over the place. That whole, AI know where there is open land, is a little frustrating too, but I enjoy culture crushing when I can.

I was decent at CivII, and I played CivIII when it first came out, but took a break and came back to it...and sadly, not very good yet.

Panag · May 20, 2002, 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by grapedog
Like a save file? Typically, how big are the save files for the game...unfortunately I'm at work right now, but if you would like me to I can when I get home. It's not a pretty sight.

I was polite with most of my neighbohrs for the longest time but I would not trade them any world/territory maps of my own, I guess thats why they decided to walk all over the place. That whole, AI know where there is open land, is a little frustrating too, but I enjoy culture crushing when I can.

I was decent at CivII, and I played CivIII when it first came out, but took a break and came back to it...and sadly, not very good yet.

hi ,

the save is nice , one can always learn from another , ..........

so workind and playing , ............

have a nice day

grapedog · May 20, 2002, 12:27

I wish I was working and playing, but playing will have to wait till i get home, I can only browse the forums at work.

bigvic · May 20, 2002, 15:12

Grapedog,

How did you deal w/ your neighbors real early? Sometimes there's no avoiding war, especially on a crowded continent, especially w/ certain civs like aztecs. Horsemen - 2-1-2. In sits like that, building lots of units might keep the AI off your back a while, but once you have a bunch of units, you may as well go for blood. Thats the beauty of playing random start. Who knows, you might get the chill & build frenchies on a fight or die situation, or the kill kill kill from the get go aztecs on a splendidly isolated island.

Back to your quandry. Try to isolate your enemies and pick 'em off one at a time. Rights of passage, luxuries/resources, techs, world maps, $, commo w/ other civs,...all can ingratiate you to at least some civs unless they are in "dogpile on you" mode. Also, jumping into a dogpile on some poor unfortunate AI, esp. if they are far away, can earn you the same goodies and ingratiate you to the AI's.

Be prepared to swallow some pride if it means survival. Comfort yourself with fantasies of torturing your tormentors one day.

notyoueither · May 20, 2002, 15:18

grapedog

If you had approached Caesar before Cleo did, things might be a lot different?