Foreign Relations 101 - Page 2

bigvic · May 20, 2002, 15:25

Yeah, an early and entirely understandable mistake many players make once they figure out what a pack of @$$holes the AI's are is go into isolationist hedgehog mode. They've been burned by those mean ole AI's and want nuthin' to do w/ em. Again, understandable, but the benefits of taking at least a partially proactive diplomatic approach cannot be bested by even the luckiest setup and total hedgehog mode.

grapedog · May 20, 2002, 15:57

It's possible about Ceasar, not sure. To be honest I didn't do anything to them, until I started kicking them out of my land they were all polite. Egypt was the first the pop and didn't think about bringing anyone else in because I would just let her waste her units...but then all hell broke loose a couple of times. I'll post my save file when I get home if your interested.

I got the Greeks and Egyptians off my back, but the Aztecs and Romans I believe are two that are still trying to beat the crap out of me. I think it was the fact that I wouldn't give anyone Masonry so i could build the pyramid pretty much alone and I wouldn't let anyone have any maps of my territory but they knew there was a few good spots for cities left in my territory. I got a REALLY good map placement, at least I think so. It was large continents, I was in the SW corner and if using the OCP theory I had room for 5 or maybe 6 cities across the breadth and at least 3 deep. I was slowly filling in the rest of the spots when all my neighbors started trying to explore into my land. I tried to keep em clear and kept kicking them out and war broke loose, unfortunately I wasn't ready for it at that moment...but I'm holding on barely. They will have a much harder fight to take any of my big cities and my main resources like horses and iron are sitting behind my capitol and the like. The AI players just pump out MASSIVE amounts of troops. I don't know how they can afford them all.

notyoueither · May 20, 2002, 16:17

The AI will go nuts to explore all unknown areas. They value maps highly. It might be a mistake to withhold your maps for so long. If you trade the map, they won't send explorers. They will send forces to kill Barb camps though. You can often trade your maps for tech the first time you trade.

The bit about Caesar highlights the principle that if you are not enlisting the neutrals against your enemy, your enemy will get them in against you.

Panag · May 20, 2002, 17:54

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
The AI will go nuts to explore all unknown areas. They value maps highly. It might be a mistake to withhold your maps for so long. If you trade the map, they won't send explorers. They will send forces to kill Barb camps though. You can often trade your maps for tech the first time you trade.

The bit about Caesar highlights the principle that if you are not enlisting the neutrals against your enemy, your enemy will get them in against you.

hi ,

hmmmmm, okay , BUT if you give your map , you give also a nice amount of intel , .......that could lead in the higher levels at least to pinpoint strike's , ........with nuke's , ..........based on the info that you sold , .......

have a nice day

notyoueither · May 20, 2002, 18:53

Somehow, I don't think nukes would be much of a factor in 1000bc.

Withholding the maps certainly will get you swarms of AI units exploring. They will get the knowledge of the lay out of your area. You will get nothing, except maybe some grief.

The AI will leave you alone for the most part if you build sufficient units and if you are not a cultural dwarf. Not always, that's why the units you build will usually get some use.

Panag · May 20, 2002, 18:57

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Somehow, I don't think nukes would be much of a factor in 1000bc.

Withholding the maps certainly will get you swarms of AI units exploring. They will get the knowledge of the lay out of your area. You will get nothing, except maybe some grief.

The AI will leave you alone for the most part if you build sufficient units and if you are not a cultural dwarf. Not always, that's why the units you build will usually get some use.

hi ,

hey Tiger , later on , ......and with the tech rate of the AI , there are people who saw nukes in 1750 , ..........;

have a nice day

grapedog · May 20, 2002, 21:56

Ok, my save game is attached here. This is about 3 or 4 turns before I start to get crushed. The Egyptian city in the south next to the aztec city used to be Greek but I razed it and after egypt became buddies with me again they planted one there before I had a chance to pump out a settler(to busy with mil units). There was a small corridor between Bactra and Antioch that other cultures were able to sneak through.

Bursis and Pithom were both originally Roman cities but I razed them so I could move on. Good ole Egypt waltzed right in to take the space over.

Tyre is about to get it's butt kicked by the Aztec's...but they can be bought off for around 100 gold...still leaving me with Babylon, Rome and Germany. Ugg!

Anyhow, this is my save. I'm still new to the game and struggling a bit to understand a lot of it. This is on Warlord level and I am playing the Persians. As you can see I got what I would call almost perfect placement for a starting city with Persepolis where it is. I could also fit another city south or Arbela comfortably. I also had one placed between Sardis, Antioch and Pasargarde where the triangle in the road is.

2 stacks of units near arbela, thats where the majority of the forces were coming from. It wasn't until about a turn or two ago they massed near Hamadan. Hamadan has so far fallen a few times, I can't seem to keep it. I could probably backpedal a little and pull out of Heraklia and give it back to whomever and reinforce Hamdan.

Tyre, Hamada and Sidon were recent cities and as of yet, no roads there. I JUST got one to Sidon. Tyre apparently sits on a saltpeter bed I just found out recently...now it's producing musketeers but have switched it back to Spearmen for fast unit production multiple times.

Anyway to start fresh on a map if you don't have a save game from 4000bc?

grapedog · May 20, 2002, 21:57

here

bigvic · May 20, 2002, 22:37

Dude...just checked out your game. No problem! Zulus will sign a peace treaty for 80, babs for 160, Romans for 0. Krauts are the only ones who won't talk. Youe have, what, 260+ gold? You could come to peace w/ all but the germans. Personally I'd pick the weakest or strongest of the three you can deal w/, pay off the other 2, and slaughter the third.
Diplomacy, my dear boy, DIPLOMACY!! Divide & conquer. Swallow a little pride now and drink from your enemy's skulls later - one at a time...Vengeance is best served cold anyway!!!!!

notyoueither · May 20, 2002, 23:23

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
with the tech rate of the AI , there are people who saw nukes in 1750

You keep your maps secret as late as 1750? How many wars has that started?

grapedog · May 21, 2002, 01:08

Well, in answering one of my own questions, I was able to restart that same exact map...I guess there is always one auto save at the very beginning that never disappears. Anyhow, I did a few things different. Knowing the terrain a little I was able to create a solid line of my cities so no one could get to my southern territories early. Two other Civ's managed to bring boats around and they each have a colony on the tundra in the far south for now. I'll try culture crushing them.

This time around I freely traded my Territory map with a few civ's too keep them from snooping too much. I used workers non-auto'd to create roads to and from every city so they all had access to Iron and making Immortals. I then pumped out a ton of Immortals and landed them at most of my top half cities. Cranked out the barracks and Immortals. So far I've had one short war with the Zulu's and they lost a city and then gave up. I'm trying to remain civil with most of the Civ's while I tech and arm all my cities to the teeth...or at least what I think is the teeth for now. I've got more land, better placement, more troops, better relations, more cities, more tech and all much earlier. A much better show around this time.

On this new game I'm going to put one more city between Hamadan and Tyre, and then Tyre and Umtata. That should provide a very stable front line. Plus I have room for another 2 or 3 interior cities as well if I need them. Not sure how I'm going to try and win the game yet...thats the next thing I need to figure out.

bigvic · May 21, 2002, 08:46

What? You're not playing from the point you posted? Oh man, why not? You can kick some serious AI @$$ on that one. Persia may not be a mil power, but for this stage of the game especially, they sure compete well in military matters. Make peace w/ 1 or 2 enemies and crush the others. W/ that many powers on you rcontinent its sooo hard not to fight. Even a real Metternich would be taxed in that situation. Of course, Bismark understood the fact that "blood & iron" (you've planty of both as the Persians) are simply a part of your diplomatic arsenal. not a seperate catagory. Now get back in there boy and quit bellyaching!!!

Panag · May 21, 2002, 09:24

Quote:

Originally posted by grapedog
Well, in answering one of my own questions, I was able to restart that same exact map...I guess there is always one auto save at the very beginning that never disappears. Anyhow, I did a few things different. Knowing the terrain a little I was able to create a solid line of my cities so no one could get to my southern territories early. Two other Civ's managed to bring boats around and they each have a colony on the tundra in the far south for now. I'll try culture crushing them.

This time around I freely traded my Territory map with a few civ's too keep them from snooping too much. I used workers non-auto'd to create roads to and from every city so they all had access to Iron and making Immortals. I then pumped out a ton of Immortals and landed them at most of my top half cities. Cranked out the barracks and Immortals. So far I've had one short war with the Zulu's and they lost a city and then gave up. I'm trying to remain civil with most of the Civ's while I tech and arm all my cities to the teeth...or at least what I think is the teeth for now. I've got more land, better placement, more troops, better relations, more cities, more tech and all much earlier. A much better show around this time.

On this new game I'm going to put one more city between Hamadan and Tyre, and then Tyre and Umtata. That should provide a very stable front line. Plus I have room for another 2 or 3 interior cities as well if I need them. Not sure how I'm going to try and win the game yet...thats the next thing I need to figure out.

hi ,

when you restart the combat shall be different every time , you have an action , save and replay , it shall be different , .....

have a nice day

Panag · May 21, 2002, 09:38

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither

You keep your maps secret as late as 1750? How many wars has that started?

hi ,

the players who can keep there maps secret , but buy it verytime from other civ's , and do that , so your map is always uptodate , ...have it easier , .....if war start's over a map there is something else , ...in 85% , .....

, ...that is the real "trigger" of the war , ....

in a game from a fellow player maps are secret until 2300 , .....and in his mod he made the explorer like the privateer , ....no "flag" , .......nice game , ....

have a nice day

grapedog · May 21, 2002, 10:15

Quote:

Originally posted by bigvic
Now get back in there boy and quit bellyaching!!!

I'm going to retry the game from that point, after I finish it from this point(restart), probably another 2 nights or so. I already am understanding Civ III a little better and some of the big changes from Civ II. Thanks everyone for all the help btw!

grapedog · May 21, 2002, 11:18

One quick question...

If you have an MPP with another AI, and they get into a war and you say "Sure, I'll go to war with them" but never actually attack the other Civ your buddy is at war with, will they remember that or know about that and be cross with you, or since you agreed is it ok with them and they leave it at that?

Panag · May 21, 2002, 11:24

Quote:

Originally posted by grapedog
One quick question...

If you have an MPP with another AI, and they get into a war and you say "Sure, I'll go to war with them" but never actually attack the other Civ your buddy is at war with, will they remember that or know about that and be cross with you, or since you agreed is it ok with them and they leave it at that?

hi ,

yep , ......

have a nice day

bigvic · May 21, 2002, 12:40

Quote:

Originally posted by grapedog
One quick question...

If you have an MPP with another AI, and they get into a war and you say "Sure, I'll go to war with them" but never actually attack the other Civ your buddy is at war with, will they remember that or know about that and be cross with you, or since you agreed is it ok with them and they leave it at that?

Not sure exactly what Panag just said, but I don't think it hurts you at all.

Panag · May 21, 2002, 12:43

hi ,

the AI keeps "records" , .....so , what you do in the past as a human player counts , as how they will behave to you

also , after a war the AI can be "furious" , depending on how you react it can become your best friend , ....

have a nice day

grapedog · May 21, 2002, 13:09

I'm still not clear on the one point. So they do or do not have reactions directly relating to how helpfull you were in attacking the Civ they were at war with?

Yes, we both agree to war with someone, he sends his units, i stay at home and let him tough it out even though i agreed to fight. Will he understand that i kept my units home and did nothing even though i said yes or will he just know that I agreed and thats it whether I did or did not send my units.

Panag · May 21, 2002, 13:13

Quote:

Originally posted by grapedog
I'm still not clear on the one point. So they do or do not have reactions directly relating to how helpfull you were in attacking the Civ they were at war with?

Yes, we both agree to war with someone, he sends his units, i stay at home and let him tough it out even though i agreed to fight. Will he understand that i kept my units home and did nothing even though i said yes or will he just know that I agreed and thats it whether I did or did not send my units.

hi ,

yes your "friend" shall take notice as of how you shall help them , ....and if you do a poor job , ....that could be the start of another war , ........with your former friend , ........

however ; if you have a poor civ with a very small army , on the other side of the world , and only sink a ship or 2 , the AI shall understand this , and not blame you ,...

have a nice day

notyoueither · May 21, 2002, 13:18

Quote:

Originally posted by grapedog
I'm still not clear on the one point. So they do or do not have reactions directly relating to how helpfull you were in attacking the Civ they were at war with?

Yes, we both agree to war with someone, he sends his units, i stay at home and let him tough it out even though i agreed to fight. Will he understand that i kept my units home and did nothing even though i said yes or will he just know that I agreed and thats it whether I did or did not send my units.

I have never seen any evidence that the AI is capable of making such calculations.

Panag · May 21, 2002, 13:38

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither

I have never seen any evidence that the AI is capable of making such calculations.

hi ,

tip ; in the editor , change the default AI level to deity , ....

have a nice day