Which civs should be in?

[Stefu]

Firaxis' decision to limit number of available civs to 7 has caused much consternation. To me, however, decision to have only 16 civs to choose from is bit more dire. I don't know, I just want to have many cultures with those spiffy leader faces as possible. Also, having Firaxis design them gives them the 'official' feel that player-made civs would inevitably lack. And we can't forget that this means Firaxis would have to drop 5 of Civ2 civs (and that's assuming they haven't taken any new ones in.)

So, what's your 'civ list'? If we ignore all the info of what civs will be in that Firaxis has given us, mine would be:

Americans
Germans
French
Russians
Mayas (replacing Aztecs as 'the' Native American civilization.)
Ethiopians (replacing Zulus as 'the' African civilization.)
Egyptians
Chinese
Indians
Japanese
Mongols
English
Romans
Greek
Babylonians
Arabs

Yargh! This still means we'd have to forget about Civs like Persians, Spanish, Incas, Mali, Assyrians, Vikings, Turks, Aztecs, Zulus, Celts and many, many more! Can't stand it

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Major Civs

Americans
Inca (they were a lot bigger than Aztec + mayas together)
English
French
German
Russian
Mongols
Indians
Chinese
Japanses
Zulus
Egyptians
Romans
Greeks
Sioux
Babylonians

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

[Solver]

I want all the three great American civs - Aztecs, Incas and Mayas, but I would also like to see the Jewish in there. With others, I don't care so much.

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Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

[jadlakha]

Rather then Jewish civ I think you mean a Hebrew civ, retard.

[King Richard]

Egyptians
Babylonians
Indians
Chinese
Greeks
Persians
Romans
Franks/Carolingians/French
Germans
Spanish
English/British
Russians
Mongols
Incas
Americans
Turks or Arabs?

I would like to see a lot more, though... -Sadly, we know the Zulus are in... We will probably not see The Incas, Turks or Arabs either. -Damn, I want as many Civs as possible TO CHOOSE FROM!!!

[Ralf]

Its confirmed that a viking longship is added to the game. Would it be farfetched to belive that they added vikings as an all-in-one people for Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Finland?

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by jadlakha on 04-28-2001 03:05 PM Rather then Jewish civ I think you mean a Hebrew civ, retard.

Why not change "retard" to instead? One thing I like with this forum is the general absence of name-calling. Lets keep it that way, shall we.

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 04-28-2001 04:40 PM Why not change "retard" to instead? One thing I like with this forum is the general absence of name-calling. Lets keep it that way, shall we.

I totally agree. Change it NOW!



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- SilverDragon, scourge of the western skies

Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com

My vote would be for:
United States
Aztecs
Inca
Argentine
Roman
Celtic
British
German
Spanish
Geeek
Egyptian
Arabs
Zulu
Chinese
Indian
Mongol

Still a little euro-heavy for my tastes, maybe the following instead -

United States
Argentine
Inca
Maya
Aztec
Roman
Greek
Celtic
European Union (replacing all medieval to moden euro powers)
Arab
Persian
Eygptian
Zulu
Chinese
Indian
Mongol

[bertje121]

Most of the lists given here are OK. I just think that 16 is just not enough. But I understand Firaxis, they want to give specific things to each civ.

Mister Pleasant, you say that's it's to Euro-heavy. But you just have to admit that European culture is the base of the current society. Then of course, there were some South-american en Asian civ's, but not many.
I don't like your European-Union idea, as 'Europe' is not one culture. It's very diverse.
In fact, if we are objective, the US shoudn't be included at all! The US is no real 'civilization'. But of course, we have to please everyone.

Well, thats it!

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by bertje121 on 04-28-2001 05:15 PM Mister Pleasant, you say that's it's to Euro-heavy. But you just have to admit that European culture is the base of the current society.

I agree. One shouldnt garble historic/present day realities, just because 19-century colonialism and 2 major wars, perhaps have made it "politically incorrect" to emphasize the huge impact that european culture has brought about - mainly from the renaissance and forwards, but also (dont forget) from ancient Roman and Greek cultures. Whether one likes it or not, the selection of civs should be a little "Euro-heavy", I think. Its only fair.

[Wittlich]

I have a question .... Do we know for a FACT that we will only have 16 civilizations to choose from? Of course, I'm assuming that these would be the "major" civilizations.

The number of "minor" civilizations which can be in play opens up a whole new issue

[MrFun]

European civilizations have made important contributions to the world along with African, Arabic, Asian, and American Indian civilizations.

Anyway, my list would be to include 25 civilizations to choose from, not 16.

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"I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle, making exceptions to it -- where will it stop? If one man says it does not mean a Negro, why does not another say it does not mean some other man?"
-- Abraham Lincoln's quote, and his anti-racist ideals

[Shadowstrike]

I liked the original 14 from CivI plus Arabs and Inca.

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 04-28-2001 06:43 PM I agree. One shouldnt garble historic/present day realities, just because 19-century colonialism and 2 major wars, perhaps have made it "politically incorrect" to emphasize the huge impact that european culture has brought about - mainly from the renaissance and forwards, but also (dont forget) from ancient Roman and Greek cultures. Whether one likes it or not, the selection of civs should be a little "Euro-heavy", I think. Its only fair.

But all of that is the result of Geographical and Geobiological factors. Civ is supposed be able to start any civilization anywhere, so it's wrong to penalise the Mali just beacuse they happened to start in a contitent with a north-south axis, with no domesticable species of animals and very few plants, with desert to the north and jungle to the south, and some 3000 years after the fertile crecent civilizations.

My choices:

Americans
British
Russians
Mongols
Chinese
Spanish
Vikings
Incas
Aztecs
Mali
Kush
Egyptians
Austronesians
Babylonians
Arabs
Magyars

(Vikings are in purely because I'm scandinavian, Magyars because I'm half finno-urgic, the others are three from each continent, except asia which has five (south east, east, central, and two western.)

My concern with euro heaviness has nothing to do with ham handed politically correct diversity. Rather, I think with so many contribtuions made in the world we should try to capture more civs. I included the US and Argentina because they are important post colonial civs (different than either the native cultures or the colonizing cultures). Greece and Rome are in, I take it, because of their clasical cultures - I wasn't thinking their addition created a sort of euro-heaviness, I was refering more to the euroheaviness of the modern euro nations. England, France, Spain, and Germany all had their moments of dominance in the world, but they are fairly close in the grand scheme of things. I also would not be opposed to a North American civilization (US, Canada, Mexico, Panama)or a Mexican civilization (another post colonial power). Mali, BTW, was a good idea, I'd forgotten about them (Mansa Musa destabilized the world gold market on his pilgramage to Mecca) certaily, they had a moment in history as large as France or the US for that matter. Certainly we should have our share of ancient, medieval, modern, and post colonial representatives. Just an idea.

[Cyclotron]

What exactly is the problem here? Asssuming that Firaxis lets you choose your own Civ name and Leader as all previous Civ games, how does it matter at all that they decide to put in some civs and take away others? What is keeping you guys from just making your own custom civ?

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

[Bereta_Eder]

I'd really like to see the Arabs in CIV III. I think they were a big minus in CIV II.

I think Zulus are ok as the (South) Africans.

For America, I'd say Aztecs or Incas.

I think it's important to have civs that are imediatly recognised (even if they are not the most important - who will judge that anyway ) and are the most famous in order to capture the imagination of everyone and increase the sales.

I'd like to see again the mongols because the face of a pissed off Ghenkis Ghan always made me laugh in civ I

Spain should be in too I think. I don't wanna have frigates if I can't play spanish

Big no no to a European Union. You'd eliminate some «heavy» civs.
Edit: plus you'd put us Greeks and Italians in a dilema: should we choose European Union and reaffirm our conviction to european integration or chose Greeks or Romans??? We only have one country

Oh, I'd also challenge you to tell me who would be the «leader» of European Union lol

[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited April 29, 2001).]

[MrFun]

Paiktis -- isn't it obvious??

The Estonians should be the leader of the European Union because they're SO powerful and have SUCH a large country.

Maybe the emphasis on European civilizations is not so bad. After all, if it were not for the pillaging, massacres, and slavery in North America, I might not be in Iowa, but in Germany today.

See the wonderful progress Europeans bring wherever they go??

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"I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle, making exceptions to it -- where will it stop? If one man says it does not mean a Negro, why does not another say it does not mean some other man?"
-- Abraham Lincoln's quote, and his anti-racist ideals
[This message has been edited by MrFun (edited April 29, 2001).]

[Sabre2th]

you guys want to take away my aztecs!?!?! noooooooooo



other than that, the ideas are good

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"We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything."
-Thomas A. Edison

[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by MrFun on 04-29-2001 12:35 AM Paiktis -- isn't it obvious?? The Estonians should be the leader of the European Union because they're SO powerful and have SUCH a large country.

I have nothing against the mighty Estonians but they are not a member of the European Union.

So it has to be Greece

[Nemo]

Whats definately already in:

Chinese
Egyptians
Americans
Romans
Indians
Germany
English
Zulu
Vikings
Japanese
+one country i cant tell from the picture; but i think it is Joan of Ark, in which case that would be:
(French)

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that leaves 5 more to define.
my guesses are:

Russia (this is a shoe in, so to speak)
Native American (may be defined by any one tribal name, e.g. Sioux)
Aztec, Incans, or Myans -only one will make it. (whichever was a more influential civilization. if i knew more history on them, i would pick, but i don't know, so i can't pick)
Greeks
Spain

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these are two i would like to see in the game due to their historical signifigance, but i don't believe either have made the cut:

Babalonians
Mongols
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited April 29, 2001).]

[bertje121]

I want to say one more thing on this topic. On a lot of you lists I can see Spain. But I don't think Spain has had a bigger influence than in example, the Portuguese. There was a time when the Portuguese where much more powerful and prosperous than the Spanish.
AN

Actually, if you are looking for a middle eastern civ, the turks would be a good choice. You might remember the Turks from such empires as the Ottoman empire which was really big and really important until around WWI. And by the way, Portugal had a big influence on Brazil, the larges economy in Latin America. Hmm, Brazil might be a good coice for a civ.

[Nemo]

but without spain, neither south, nor north america would be what it is today. they had a profound effect on teh new world when it was first discovered.

[OzzyKP]

Well rather than just giving wish lists (cause i'd love to see the Magyars/Hungarians) lets try to guess which 16 would make sense.

Factors for civ selection would have to include the following:
-Historical significance and power.
-Geographic disbursment. (assuming world map)
-Recognizability from a Western point of view.
-Quality of land for start. (assuming world map)

So from what we know or have guessed:

Chinese
Egyptians
Americans
Romans
Indians
Germany
English
Zulu
Vikings
Japanese

And those all fit the above criteria and make sense.

So 6 more. As previously mentioned France and Russia are shoe ins.

So 4 more. Need some more in the Americas. I'd pick Inca and Aztec. While the typical American view point is to give a civ to the "Native Americans" i don't think any civ there really had anything big or powerful enough to be on par with some of the other notables. It'd be like picking the Aborigines in Australia. But considering this game is made by Americans, and we are totally ethno-centric, hehe, i bet a Native American civ will be in. Probably out west to balance out the Americans, so probably Sioux like before. Though i think Aztec and Inca would be much better picks.

So 2 more. Nothing in the Mid-East yet, the craddle of civilization. If they follow previous trends it'll be Babylonian or something, but i deffinatly think Arabs should be the pick. They have had great power, good name recognition. Only problem is that Saudi Arabia is all desert, if played on a world map this unbalances the Arab player alot, so i dunno. Though with the additions of real trade goods there is alot of oil which is a great plus for the region historically and in the game, so i bet Arabs are in.

So 1 more. Options from the other games that people have mentioned are Spain, Greeks, Mongolians. Personally i doubt they'll pick Spain again. I think a lot of the additions in civ 2 were just because of the 2 scenarios that were included. Spain was needed for the ww2 scenario so that was a factor in putting them in. Same with the Celts to serve as a Barbarian type civ in the Rome scenario. But Celts are certainly out of place with the other civs selected. So since Spain is stuck on a small pennisula in an already crowded area, blocked in easily by France or someone else, i imagine Spain is out. Which leaves Greeks and Mongolians. Which creates a dilema. I can't imagine either being left out. Both fit all the criteria perfectly, only minus is for Greece because they are already on a crowded continent, but i couldn't concieve of them leaving out Greece. Especially with a war game like this the most recognizable and feared warriors in history, the Mongols couldn't possibly be left out. Though again, the seed of culture in Europe, the Greeks, and spawn of another fearsome conquerer, Alexander the Great couldn't possibly be left out either. Both again were around since the beginning. So I imagine both are in.

So -1 now. Ummm, how is this possible? Grrr. Possible answer: can't possibly have only 16 civs!!

Though i bet they'll ax one of the American civs or the Arabs from my above scenario. Sigh.

[Al'Kimiya]

We've also read that the Iroquois will be in. (Some interview with Sid I think.)

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Ceci n'est pas Snapcase on 04-28-2001 08:44 PM My choices: Americans British Russians Mongols Chinese Spanish Vikings Incas Aztecs Mali Kush Egyptians Austronesians Babylonians Arabs Magyars

No Romans nor Greeks? You are kidding, aren't you?

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: Originally posted by Wittlich on 04-28-2001 06:53 PM I have a question .... Do we know for a FACT that we will only have 16 civilizations to choose from? Of course, I'm assuming that these would be the "major" civilizations. The number of "minor" civilizations which can be in play opens up a whole new issue

Well, I'm afraid not. I've lost my hopes with the last game preview: minor civs will simply be the new barbarians, that come with camp (tents towns).

Firaxis obviously chose more commercial modern civ names, while some of us proposed to start the game with few realistic old Civ, then let players decide to switch name at main events (e.g. Civ splits or main annexion).

USA can appear at a later point of game, if any player want to rename so, after surviving to early Civ raise and fall, and so can U.E. (may be after a long pact between Civs).

But no, they want Abrahm Lincoln and Mao chatting each other...
Why did I put so many hopes into a game? Because I'm a stupid dreamer, that is!

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Roman]

I agree Adm. Naismith, Romans must be included.