Which civs should be in?

[Mathphysto]

My picks:
Great Ancient Civs:
Egyptians
Indians
Chinese
Persians
Greeks
Romans
Mayans (the Greece of the Ancient Americas)

Great Renaissance/Industrial Civs:
England
France
Spain
Mongols
Byzantines (Constantinople was the light of the Western World during the Dark Ages)

Great Modern Civs:
Americans
Russians
Japanese
Germans

Now just try and tell me that the bleeding Celts, or Apaches, or Vikings should be on here, and I'll tell you a little something. None of them affected the course of human history on so grand a scale as any of the civs I listed. The Apaches were just another name on a long list of victims of disease and greed. The Viking raids didn't last that long, didn't afflict many people, and they eventually settled down and were assimilated into the British culture. And the Celts had their butts whooped on their own turf just like so many other cultures around the world. One could make a better argument for the Gauls or Huns as being significant in history (their impact in the early Dark Ages on the rise to power of the Roman Catholic Church was immense), but they still lacked the longevity and magnitude of the other civs on my list. I'll put them on my list of the top five alternate civs:
Huns
Gauls
Carthaginians (I was tempted to put the Phoenicians instead, but they were really just Mediterranean middle men, and made money doing so)
Ottomans (major players before WWI)
Muslims (not really a civ, but Mohammed's Jihad was very crucial to history)

[Mathphysto]

Antonios - there has been some speculation that the Phoenicians may have made it to South America around 300 BC, if I remember correctly. But I have never ever heard anything about Greeks sailing to the New World!!

And what is this about Greek pyramids? If you're talking about building square tetrahedrons out of stone, I'm sure Greeks weren't the first. It's so common a symbol across all cultures that I'm sure its origin predates the Greek or even Mycenean cultures - but I may be wrong about that.

And Greeks weren't the first to appreciate thinking: Indians had developed greater mathematics and architecture that even the Greeks never discovered, and provided much of the basis for science and philosophy in Persia and Greece. It's just that the Greeks killed the Persians, and the Indians suffered from isolation, so couldn't directly impact the Western world. So from the modern Westerner's point of view, Greek science and culture is incorrectly seen as the first to appreciate the power of thought.

This isn't to say that the Greeks didn't have a magnificent science and culture, merely that it wasn't the first, or even necessarily the best of its day.

If we're going by the criteria of (1) Massive area (2) actually having recognizable cities (3) Power of their time, then we have to have the Incas. There empire was huge (Equador to Chile, incl. Peru and Boliva), they were a terror to their neighbors and had recognizable cities, many of which like Cuzco are still cities today.

For that matter, the Turks or Ottomans have to be in. Huge, powerful, with contributions to science, philosophy, and cultural stuff.

And kick out the Mongols. Gengis led nomadic warriors (lacking recognizable cities). And Khubli tried so hard to be chinese, he might as well be considered a dynasty for game purposes.

Kick out the Sioux/Apache/etc. Again, no cities. For some strange reason, the native americans prone to building cities resided in the southwest (Anasazi/Pueblo). But the Aztecs pretty well cover this end of the continent.

Mali makes more sense than the Zulus. (this was the BIG medieval African power). Mansa Musa built a huge empire and destabilized the world gold market (which earned the greedy attention of those to the north of the Sahara . . . )

The Carthaginians were big, but other than being conquered by the Romans, I'm not sure there's much else to say.

Vikings? Lose them - see mongols above.

My revised list:

Must be in: Romans, Americans, Russians, Chinese, Indian, Incan, Aztec, British, French, Mali, Turks, Spaniards, Egyptian

Runner Ups (3 go in): Germans, Brazil, Cathaginians, Persians, Portugese, Japanese, Babylonian/Sumerian/Assyrian, Canadians (wild card), Argentina (wild card)

Should be out: Mongols, Zulus, Native Americans w/o cities, Vikings

And as I said before, later barbarians should be terrorists: Sendero, ETA, IRA, Michigan Freemen, even the ELF.

[Bereta_Eder]

Can we for a minute stop wishing and look at the facts as we know them by now?

SO

GREEKS ARE IN
AMERICANS ARE IN
GERMANS ARE IN
CHINESE ARE IN
ROMANS ARE IN
FRENCH ARE IN
RUSSIANS ARE IN
ZULUS ARE IN

Now, please fill in the rest ONLY if you know the specific screenshot and / or text by articles or the web site of Firaxis or anything else that tells you so.

[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 13, 2001).]

[Pedrun]

Paiktis22, Call the american British and change the Zulu. You just chose the civs for a European scenario.

[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by Pedrun on 05-13-2001 10:35 AM Paiktis22, Call the american British and change the Zulu. You just chose the civs for a European scenario.

Pedrum I don't understand what you said.

BTW, the civs I posted are the ones that are definitely in CIV 3 according the snapshots and Firaxis statements.

Do we know for sure about any others?

[tniem]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-13-2001 02:30 PM Pedrum I don't understand what you said. BTW, the civs I posted are the ones that are definitely in CIV 3 according the snapshots and Firaxis statements. Do we know for sure about any others?

Pretty sure England is in. Screen shot of Elizabeth next to Lincoln and Mao in the gallery section on the Firaxis website.

[bagdar]

If we'll have the Turks in the game, please don't make the buildings/theme music/whateverelse look or sound Arabic. This happens all the time, everywhere. (Including CrapToPlay) Come to Istanbul and you'll see that Ottoman architecture looks clearly Byzantine so: no Arab-Persian-Indian Domes.

Anyway, I'm happy with the present civ-set, no further alterations.

[Bereta_Eder]

Thank you Tniem.

So we have:

GREEKS ARE IN
AMERICANS ARE IN
GERMANS ARE IN
CHINESE ARE IN
ROMANS ARE IN
FRENCH ARE IN
RUSSIANS ARE IN
ZULUS ARE IN
ENGLISH ARE IN

[C. Gerhardt]

Maybe we are forgetting a "civ"?

What about the Firaxians from Firaxis.
They are becoming a world threat by there upcoming invention called CivIII.

As I can see the world as emerged into WW III. (Or so to speek)

Whe can also place mythical civs like Atlantis and Leprechauns or even Science Fiction like the Martians in the game?

All I know is that Sid makes the final desicion!!!

Live long and prosper!

[Maxxes]

I'm afraid we will be playing the Firaxians ourselves with all those look-a-like advisors

[Vrank Prins]

Here's my list based on history
In order of chronological appearance.[list=1][*]chinese[*]indians[*]egyptians[*]mesopotamia (stands for babylonians/assyrians/sumerians/phunicians etc.)[*]persians[*]greeks (stands for minoians(crete)/mycenians/sparta/athens/hellenistic world of Alex.t.G.)[*]romans[*]arabians[*]incans[*]mongols[*]aztecs (stands also for mayans, toltecs etc.)[*]spain[*]ottomans (turks) (günaydin bagdar !!!)[*]english[*]french[*]americans[*]japanese (stands for the asian western rim of the pacific)[/list=1]
I'm very persistent about the arabians. There role in history has always been and still is obscured in western writings because of the (one could say allmost traditional) rivalry and competition between the arabian and the european world over a very long period of time. But they really have been of great importance to development of all the world.

My guess is that the geographical spread on the map of CIV's will also be of importance. In that case I would drop the persians, the ottomans and french and replace them by the zulus, just to have a CIV deep down south in Africa), the russians to have a CIV in more-or-less Europe, and the timbuctuans (is that correct anglo ????? nowerdays Burkina Fasso) in the northwest of Africa.

If the vikings are in, then I think the portugese and the dutch ought to be in there as well, being important naval and trading CIV's too.

[tniem]

Originally posted by Vrank Prins
I'm very persistent about the arabians. There role in history has always been and still is obscured in western writings because of the (one could say allmost traditional) rivalry and competition between the arabian and the european world over a very long period of time. But they really have been of great importance to development of all the world.

I have to agree again, the Ottomans/Arabs/Turks whatever must be included in Civ III.

If the vikings are in, then I think the portugese and the dutch ought to be in there as well, being important naval and trading CIV's too.

Not sure you want to open up that can of worms. Where do you draw the line? Do you include the Portugese and Dutch for being traders and forget the Phoenicians/Carthaginians?

[Arator]

My ideal would be the following 32 civs (* indicates my TOP 16):

Ancient: Egyptians Babylonians Persians Romans Carthagenians Ancient/Medieval/Modern: Israelis* Greeks* Celts* Germans* Chinese* Indians* Medieval: Vikings Mongols Aztecs Incans

Medieval/Modern: Arabs* Turks English* Spanish* Portuguese French* Dutch Danish Russians* Polynesians Zulus* Austro-Hungarians Italians Japanese* Modern: Iroquois* Americans (with a "Yankee only" toggle)* Confederates*

[Stefu]

Heck, as long as we are sailing on the Fantasy Island, here would be my 32 civs:

Americas:

Americans
Aztec
Mayas
Inca

Africa:

Carthagians
Egyptians
Mali
Zulus

Central Asia:

Mongols
Chinese
Japanese
Koreans

Southern Asia & Australia:

Indians
Siamese
Javans
Australians

Middle East:

Arabs
Turks
Babylonians
Persians

Northern Europe:

Vikings
English
Germans
Dutch

Southern Europe:

French
Spanish
Romans
Greeks

Eastern Europe:

Russians
Poles
Hungarians
Finns (You can guess my nationality )

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by Mathphysto
...And the Celts had their butts whooped on their own turf just like so many other cultures around the world. One could make a better argument for the Gauls or Huns as being significant in history
Carthaginians (I was tempted to put the Phoenicians instead, but they were really just Mediterranean middle men, and made money doing so)
Muslims (not really a civ, but Mohammed's Jihad was very crucial to history)

Umm... Gauls were Celts, but with a Latin name. Awfully hard to separate them, as they were one...

The Phoenicians, who spun off from the "Minoan" Cretans, actually settled Carthage (Kart-Hadesh) and other cities that later became the Carthaginians. Same people, different time periods and names...

Muslims (do you mean Arabs?) not a civ?! Read the news, you might notice that they are gargantuan on the world scale, have impacted history is ways only dreamable by many of the popularly listed european civs, were at the forefront of intellectual developments for centuries (altho this last has languished in our time somewhat).

Sorry, thought I ought to point this out...

[Wernazuma III]

I can't accept my dear Mexica (Aztec is a very wrong name) are not wanted by some of you. Those Maya losers were conquered by those who were too weak to resist us chichimecs.

My humble list:

Europe:
Spanish
French
English
Germans
Romans
Greeks
Russians
Normans
Portuguese

Asia:
Arabs
Jews
Turks
Mongols
Chinese
Indians
Japanese
Babylonians
Persians

Africa:
Egyptians
Ethiopians
Mali
Zulu

Pacific:
Polynesians

Americas:
Americans
Toltecs
Mexica (Aztecs)
Mayans
Inca

What would make 28civs, 7colors, 4 choices each.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq


Umm... Gauls were Celts, but with a Latin name. Awfully hard to separate them, as they were one...

The Phoenicians, who spun off from the "Minoan" Cretans, actually settled Carthage (Kart-Hadesh) and other cities that later became the Carthaginians. Same people, different time periods and names...

...

correct that phoenicians settled Carthage.

incorrect that phoeniecians were Minoans.
Phoenicians were semites, canaanites in particular. As, essentially were hebrews, who share language and culture with the canaanite/phoenicians, except for hebrews monotheist relgion. (and even there hebrew names for God come from the canaanite pantheon)

carthage is latinization of kart hadash - new town.

In modern Hebrew - kiryat hadash.

All (Hebrews, canaanites, phoenicians,) were apparently descended from early bronze age ugaritic/ebla civilization.

No one knows exactly who the minoans were - Cretan linear A has never been translated. Linear B is mycenaen greek, but thats later.

LOTM

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



No one knows exactly who the minoans were - Cretan linear A has never been translated. Linear B is mycenaen greek, but thats later.

LOTM

You have it all mixed up LOTM.

If you want to go to the dawn of the birth of the greek nation mycenaeans and then later minoans (two different things) were two of the seven ancient races of greeks. (and later dorians, ionians etc etc)

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by paiktis22


You have it all mixed up LOTM.

If you want to go to the dawn of the birth of the greek nation mycenaeans and then later minoans (two different things) were two of the seven ancient races of greeks. (and later dorians, ionians etc etc)

The minoans are an older culture than mycaeneans. Mycaeneans conquered most of crete after the decline of the minoans. Well, I don't want to destroy your national sense of ethnogenesis but minoans and mycaeneans were both pre-indo-european peoples and were by nothing related to the later coming tribes. But of course they are a good part of the ferment of later greeks (I've heard the theory that among the Ionians, Dorians and Achaians the Ionians probably were most mixed with pre-indoarian populace).

[C. Gerhardt]

I agree with Wernazuma III.

To add to this discussion, the Minoans where overrun by the Mycaeneans from Greece.

There are also discussions about the Minoans being the original inhabitants of Atlantis.

[Vrank Prins]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
What would make 28civs, 7colors, 4 choices each.

My guess is that the Firaxians are keeping the numder of CIV's (17 as I've understood from somewhere around here) down becuse of the work they have to do on the 3D diplomatic heralds.

[Vrank Prins]

Originally posted by C. Gerhardt
I agree with Wernazuma III.
To add to this discussion, the Minoans where overrun by the Mycaeneans from Greece.

But is this a relevant discussion. Do we really want them in ??

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


The minoans are an older culture than mycaeneans. Well, I don't want to destroy your national sense of ethnogenesis

After so many years ethnogenesis doesn't really matter now does it

But why do you insist on something that's wrong? Who do you call the Mycaeneans? Are we using the same word for two different people? The Mykines as is the word were living in the south east aegean islands long before the minoans. The first known people ever to inhabit the area, metriarchship, fertility statues etc etc?

[Bereta_Eder]

I just looked at the dictionary: Mykines IS mycenaeans. SO sorry but you are certaintly wrong.

Minoan culture started somewhere between 1600 bc
Mycenaenas came to the scene anywhere between 3000 and 2000 bc.

Also, the seven ancient races of greeks include both. It's not my word of the greek ethnogenesis but the one of historians, mostly western historians for that matter.

[C. Gerhardt]

Sorry, but your wrong.

Both Minoans and Mycaeneans started ad approx. 3000 bc, but the Minoans where destroyed by the Mycaeneans approx. 1450 bc.

If you don´t believe me, check out www.historial.homestead.com

No further comment.

[Vrank Prins]

Originally posted by paiktis22
After so many years ethnogenesis doesn't really matter now does it
But why do you insist on something that's wrong? Who do you call the Mycaeneans? Are we using the same word for two different people? The Mykines as is the word were living first known people ever to inhabit the area in the south east aegean islands long before the minoans. The , metriarchship, fertility statues etc etc?

For those who wanna go there.
Mycene is a tiny village on the eastern peloponnesos, about three hours bussing form Athens. The archeological site is of mediocre interest, a bit too much a rubble of stones. And the youth hostel is really very very very basic. In the village itself is really nothing else to do then . . . hang around and booze ????. I've helped picking fresh oranges there (november it was).
The palace of Minos (King of the minoans) was the home of the Minotaurus which lived in the maze of king Minos. It lies about half an hour south by citybus out of Heraklion city on the isle of Crete. It's really worthwhile seeing because it's being "restored" early 20th century by an english archeologist. In the neighbourhood of the youth hostel are lots of good value restaurants. There is a great musem on the minoan culture in Heraklion and the city itself is rather nice too.

[Keygen]

Paiktis22, the Minoans rised before Mycenaeans in the greater area of Greece. Minoans appeared in Crete aproximately in 3000 BC and flourished between 1800 and 1500 BC. The Mycenaeans seems to have appeared mainly in Paloponessos aproximately in 2000 BC. After the volcanic eruption of Thira (Santorini) the Minoans got into decadence until they were conquered by the Mycenaeans.

I don't know whether the Minoans were Greeks or not but they might have been as the theory of Indo-Europinian race isn't confirmed. It bases its speculation entirely in the reletion between the languages many nations had developed. No archeological or anthropological evidence has ever been found. All of the modern western Europian languages have come from the Latins but it's well known that they are not Romans .

When you go far back in time it is difficult to identify what the truth is...


As for the original subject I think it would be more fair to include the Celts than the Zulus as they have contributed much more in history and inhabited the entire Western Europe for more than a thousand years.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Vrank Prins
For those who wanna go there.
Mycene is a tiny village on the eastern peloponnesos, about three hours bussing form Athens. The archeological site is of mediocre interest, a bit too much a rubble of stones. And the youth hostel is really very very very basic. In the village itself is really nothing else to do then . . . hang around and booze ????. I've helped picking fresh oranges there (november it was).

But they were warlike. What did you expected? Acropolis? For the time they rised they had a developed civilization much more advanced than the rest Europian civilization at that time . Not to mentioned the disaster their buildings had suffered from wars and time...

Besides the Piramids of Egypt are a bunch of rocks too but they are an evidence of a great ancient civilization .