Civ3 and Sim Golf: Mortal Enemies?

yin26 · May 10, 2001, 21:13

Click **here** for my full treatment of the topic, limited not only to Civ3. But as far as Civ3 is concerned, Sim Golf can only be HURTING it. Period. End of story.

Now let me just say: This is fine. Plenty of other good games to play these days.

tniem · May 10, 2001, 21:35

I don't necessarily believe that Sim Golf is hurting Civ III. Firaxis seems to have a pretty large staff of talented individuals that should be able to handle two games. The art department is being used for both but at this point in developement I would guess most of the art for both games is at least getting near finalized.

As for Sid himself, who really believed that he was concentrating 100% on Civ III? I mean, it is obvious that he wants and looks for new challenges. He didn't make Civ II, SMAC, and now Civ III because he has already done so. He wants to be the greatest in multiple genres, so here he is going to try another one. In the end it should be interesting...

Jeje2 · May 11, 2001, 02:37

Yin

Well, I had yesterday alomst the same question in my mind.

I'm not that convinced that Sid working on two projects is a totally bad thing.

Reason:
Sid is in a position were he gives guidelines in how the game should be developed next. And no matter this doesn't take all workingtime. Also, by having two, quite different, projects he can get some distance from CivIII project every now and then. (And we have talked about becoming blind to own work here earlier) One thing more is that when doing two projects you just might have the possibility to chose that today I could work on golf, becouse I'm just tired of CivIII and so getting some rest.

Of course it is dangerous to work on two titels simultanously, but it might work. At least JMS (Joe M. Straczynski) has sad that for him writing/working on many things is good.

One question I would like get an honest answer is: Is Sid interested in doing CivIII? (How many sequels has Sid made? I think he is better known for always trying to do something new.)

Btw. I join ya in not buying this game.

Zanzin · May 11, 2001, 03:23

What annoys me is that SimGolf gets officially announced, and boom, 5 official screenshots have been posted on the web by GS. Civ3 was officially announced yonks ago and we still don't have any "real" screenshots (we've all agreed that the ones we've seen are pre-alpha). Must annoying!!

On that note, SimGolf does look pretty cool

yin26 · May 11, 2001, 03:23

Well, from the standpoint of Sid himself, I have no doubt HE could spin ideas for two games simultaneously without much problem. But one just really gets the sense that he doesn't want much to do with Civ3. He left Civ2 and SMAC totally alone for the most part. A few comments here and there, but that's about all from what we've been told.

Looks like Civ3 is going the same way while the ONLY excitement we've heard from Sid (after his Dinos died) is about plopping down trees and watching a sim golf ball fly through the air.

What does that mean for Firaxis on Civ3? I for one know that when my boss is REALLY interested in Project A, how hard and with how many resources am I going to be working on Project B? Hell, it's not even as if these two games have ANYTHING related to each other.

Are we a history/war/RTS/TBS company or a Will Wright clone?

Surely that question has to be burning the minds and budget at Firaxis, and no matter how you look at it, every programmer and every dollar and every word of hype for this odd-ball Sim Golf project is a programmer, a dollar and word taken away from Civ 3.

I'm not normally a zero-sum kind of guy, but when you're talking about ONE company making TWO completely different games, something HAS to give. And right now, it certainly looks like Civ 3 is the one moving over. This, any rational person would agree, is a risk to say the least.

Grumbold · May 11, 2001, 03:33

It is a risk and we should be slightly concerned BUT if Sid doesn't want to get involved in Civ III then scrapping SIMGolf will only have him casting around for a new game to get involved with. It won't increase his interest in supervising and committing additional resources to Civ III. Unless more staff have been drafted from the Civ team to assist the ex-Dino people in doing Golf it won't make much extra difference. I was worried before that Dino was occupying the most creative people, but I don't think anything has got worse with its temporary demise in favour of a different title.

Jeje2 · May 11, 2001, 03:37

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-11-2001 03:23 AM
Well, from the standpoint of Sid himself, I have no doubt HE could spin ideas for two games simultaneously without much problem. But one just really gets the sense that he doesn't want much to do with Civ3. He left Civ2 and SMAC totally alone for the most part. A few comments here and there, but that's about all from what we've been told.

Yup, I have the same thoughs myself.
Does Sid have any real interest in developing CivIII or is it just a "cash-cow" that has to be made by Sid now that Brian is gone.

quote:

What does that mean for Firaxis on Civ3? I for one know that when my boss is REALLY interested in Project A, how hard and with how many resources am I going to be working on Project B? Hell, it's not even as if these two games have ANYTHING related to each other.

OK, have I missed something?
I have (or had) the impression that Sid Golf would not be coded by FIRAXIS.
Am I wrong in this?
Since if it's only Sid from FIRXIS I don't see that big problem.
But, if Firaxis is doing all the work on a basic engine then I agree with you.
[This message has been edited by Jeje2 (edited May 11, 2001).]

yin26 · May 11, 2001, 04:20

Grumbold and Jeje:

If this Golf thing is being totally outsourced, I suppose there's hardly a loss since Sid seemed not much interested in Civ 3 anyway. Nevermind that it's still got to be a distraction from the far more important (and certainly lucrative) Civ3, no big deal I guess.

What I continue to not understand is why Sid insists on chasing Dinos and Golf carts when CIV 3 is on the table? For goodness sake, pour your heart into Civ ONE LAST TIME and then do whatever. I mean, doesn't that just makes sense financially? Sure, Sid can do whatever he wants, but lots of people there hang on his decisions for their paychecks. If he's running off chasing rainbows, who's minding the store?

So strange. I've never seen this kind of behavior before. A gaming company has THE HOTTEST continuance of a game finally coming back to them after all kinds of court-room drama, etc., and the head guy goes and makes a Golf Sim?

Fascinating.

May 11, 2001, 05:09

on the issue of who's developing simgolf:

quote:

To be clear, aside from the initial consulting done by Will Wright, Maxis has little to do with this game's development. While some Maxis producers and general managers are still involved in its design, as its title indicates, Sid Meier's SimGolf is a Sid Meier game, and as such, it's being worked on at the Firaxis headquarters.

meanwhile...

quote:

After it ships, Maxis will provide continued online support for the game by releasing new skins and items through its official Web site as it's done for all of its previous games.

Jeje2 · May 11, 2001, 05:58

MarkG:

THX for the clarification.
Now I am a little worried about CivIII, is Firaxis big enough for developing two games simultaniously?

One thing sure is that CivIII will not be a 2001 game. (Just as I had hoped, but not for this reason) They have now spent over two years on CivIII and a third is also (most likely) required before release.

=> Q: What is the longest developingtime a wellknown game has had and still been released? (This starts to sound like CivIII will breake records)

[This message has been edited by Jeje2 (edited May 11, 2001).]

May 11, 2001, 06:03

from the pcgamer preview

quote:

Number of developers on Civilization III : 20
Number of Firaxis employees : 36

Grumbold · May 11, 2001, 06:54

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-11-2001 04:20 AM
What I continue to not understand is why Sid insists on chasing Dinos and Golf carts when CIV 3 is on the table? For goodness sake, pour your heart into Civ ONE LAST TIME and then do whatever. I mean, doesn't that just makes sense financially? Sure, Sid can do whatever he wants, but lots of people there hang on his decisions for their paychecks. If he's running off chasing rainbows, who's minding the store?

So strange. I've never seen this kind of behavior before. A gaming company has THE HOTTEST continuance of a game finally coming back to them after all kinds of court-room drama, etc., and the head guy goes and makes a Golf Sim?

Fascinating.

Sid has alwast been a revolutionary, not evolutionary, game designer. Railroad Tycoon II, Civ II etc have all been left for other designers to persue while he goes on to pastures new. I know personally at least two people with exactly the same attitude. One is so bad it is almost impossible to get him to complete any project before being sidetracked by the next hot idea. Once the initial rush of planning and designing is over he has little interest in the actual execution despite a burst of pride should others actually carry it through to fruition. With the PC Gamer review stressing that Civ III is making no attempt to bring the genre truly into the new century, just evolving the old ideas where customer demand is strongest, no wonder he can barely stifle a yawn.

When Firaxis lost some key staff he had to step into the breach and exert leadership to prevent a loss of public confidence. Once the team was rebuilt I expect all he wanted to do was go back to persuing the next big idea. Provided he actually plays the latest beta occasionally and suggests a new model or tweak where the gameplay is unsatisfactory, that is enough for me. Insisting he work on the game full time is unlikely to produce any better results. If he is not an addict of the genre itself then it will do more harm than good. Going off to make SIMGolf, an original idea assuming Golf Tycoon had not been announced, will hopefully keep him fresh, happy and bursting with some innovative ideas when he does spend a little time with Civ. Brian Reynolds Civ II was a good game. Hopefully unkown-project-leader's Civ III will be equally good even if it does not contain all the improvements The List and others suggest.

Fintilgin · May 11, 2001, 14:27

Simgolf? Ok.

Not my cup of tea, I think, but no biggie.

What has me scratching my head is that Simgolf has those nice crisp large and attractive screenshots to show off. CivIII has only had blurry hard to see scans from magazines.

Odd PR strategy I think. Perhaps it'll change after E3?

Joe

May 11, 2001, 14:36

quote:

Originally posted by Fintilgin on 05-11-2001 02:27 PM
What has me scratching my head is that Simgolf has those nice crisp large and attractive screenshots to show off. CivIII has only had blurry hard to see scans from magazines.

simgolf has pretty much fixed release date around fall. civ3 is still unclear when it will be released...

Hundred Waters · May 11, 2001, 15:18

[quote]Originally posted by yin26 on 05-11-2001 04:20 AM
I mean, doesn't that just makes sense financially? Sure, Sid can do whatever he wants, but lots of people there hang on his decisions for their paychecks. If he's running off chasing rainbows, who's minding the store?
quote]

I would assume Jeff Briggs is the one minding shop in the day to day development and operations.

yin26 · May 11, 2001, 19:09

More than 1/3 of the staff on Sim Golf! I rest my case.

tniem · May 11, 2001, 23:37

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-11-2001 07:09 PM
More than 1/3 of the staff on Sim Golf! I rest my case.

But when does too many people on the same project actually detract from the work that is getting done. Obviously adding people to the staff should improve quality and reduce the time it takes for the game to be released, but eventually the benefits are reduced and negated by extra workers on the staff. So if the 1/3 of the staff on Sim Golf were to move back to Civ III, would it help make the game better? I don't believe it would. In fact it would probably slow down production time. I would have to think Firaxis has the proper number of workers dedicating their lives to Civ III (now whether or not Sid should be involved is another story entirely).

yin26 · May 12, 2001, 00:11

Yes, moving people around in mid-project can often do more harm than good, which is another reason I can't understand why Firaxis wouldn't do one game at a time? Even if that's Sim Golf, do THAT one with everybody you've got (certainly if you manage it right from the start, more people can get more done...otherwise you hired the wrong people). It might well be that Firaxis has over-hired and NEEDS to be doing two games at once. Obviously not a good road to walk.

tniem · May 12, 2001, 00:24

Fact: Sid has been programming games for about 20 years now.

Recently, I have been messing around with C++ after I got a copy from a friend. After purchasing a book to figure the stuff out, I have learned that it is very different from the Visual Basic that I have had some classes in college to learn. Now, what I am wondering is how has Sid been able to consistently learn the newest languages and code to that specification?

It would seem eventually that you couldn't stay on the cutting edge of design and code especially when with every new game you have to relearn how to design things. Eventually then it would seem to make sense to me that a programmer would turn to new people to have their ideas come to life. Take more of a hands off position and let people under you do the actual programming. I think this is what has happened to Sid.

May 12, 2001, 06:00

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-11-2001 07:09 PM
More than 1/3 of the staff on Sim Golf! I rest my case.

eeer who says that 20 is not the number that is needed at this stage?

yin26 · May 12, 2001, 06:23

You could be right, of course. That means when one game is finished, however, what will the others do? What I'm talking about is pressure on them to HAVE to keep making two games at once or fire some people.

IT'S SIMPLE: They should have kept the team smaller, put all the savings back into themselves, and focussed on Civ 3 to make it the best damn game ever.

ancient · May 12, 2001, 06:56

i dont like this either.. i mean sure its a big company.. and sure maybe Meier doesnt want to work on civ3... but what exactly do they think making two games at the same time which will compete with each-other is going to get them? it would be better to make civ3 first since it has the largest fan base of about pretty much any game ever made and then do sids little golf game..

May 12, 2001, 07:23

two things:

1) what's wrong with the simgold people moving to another project? firaxis has been a 2-game company for some time now: when smac started, gettysburg was at it's late stages, and when smac was being released, sid had been working on his dinos with a small team for a long time before

2) we dont know exactly what kind of people are included in those numbers. does "20" cover pr or marketing or the web? perhaps, yes, perhaps not. we also dont know how many people from maxis are working on simgolf

btw, if firaxis could get some of the maxis artists(no offence meant to current firaxis employees) for the city graphics(especially), it would be interesting

May 12, 2001, 07:34

quote:

Originally posted by ancient on 05-12-2001 06:56 AM
two games ... which will compete with each

first of all, it's not hard for me to see civ3 coming out 6 months after simgolf

second, how will an real-time golf course manager compete with an empire building turn-based strategy game?

yin26 · May 12, 2001, 07:45

Yes, but Markos, we were waiting for a Civil War game and SMAC! What are we waiting for now? A curiously vague Civ3 and....SIM GOLF! Let me repeat that last part: SIM GOLF!!!!

Any staff member put on that project is one too many for me since I will never buy the game and (to your poll) would never visit the forum here if you had one.

Will it make money and not hurt Civ 3 in any way? Hell, I'll even grant that. It just burns me to no end knowing that Sid is doing a Golf game when Civ 3 is still on-going. And it also burns me that Sid is going to release a game I won't play.

Yes, that's likely the source of most of my posting about this.

Ah, well, time will tell I suppose.

yin26 · May 12, 2001, 07:49

By the way, using the Maxis artists looks like a damn good idea. Also, let the Maxis people do all the PR work for Civ 3. In fact, why not just let Maxis do Civ 3?

[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited May 12, 2001).]

ancient · May 12, 2001, 07:50

of course theyll compete with each other all games do realy but i imagined them being 3-4 months apart..

May 12, 2001, 07:53

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-12-2001 07:45 AM
And it also burns me that Sid is going to release a game I won't play.

well, he's a bit older now, and instead of dreaming of ancient civilizations that stand the test of time, he dreams of the greatest golf courses in the world!! but that's life!

May 12, 2001, 07:55

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-12-2001 07:49 AM
By the way, using the Maxis artists looks like a damn good idea. Also, let the Maxis people do all the PR work for Civ 3. In fact, why not just let Maxis do Civ 3?

Sid Meier's SimCiv 3?

ancient · May 12, 2001, 07:57

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-12-2001 07:45 AM
And it also burns me that Sid is going to release a game I won't play.

Yes, that's likely the source of most of my posting about this.

thats one of my problems i dont have a job (im only 15) and i dont take money from my parents (no allowance or anything like that) so i would have a hard time getting both so, of course id be getting civ3 and golf cause golf is usually boring anyways maybe your own golf resort could be fun .. especially if its like RailRoad Tycoon... so i probably wont ever play sim golf unless they release a demo.. but i probably wont be missing much..

But what im really look forward to is Sid Meier's SimBird