What will the remaining 2 unknown civs be?

[civman2000]

i'm getting suspicious that a roman scenario will also be added...

[KaiserIsak]

The arabs and the babylonians are two completly different civilizations.
The babylonians are in the game as the assyrians, hettitians, sumerians, akkadians and the babylonians. These were among the first civs to develop ever, and they used ancient languages (sumer is not related to anything we know of, and akkadian is related to semitic i think, hittitian is a indoeuropean language and babylonians and assyrians used the akkadian language). They were the first to develop writing, and were the first to build cities. They dominated the "world" (near east with persia, anatolia, egypt and middle east) for centuries, even milleniums, and even if the babylonians only lasted a few hundred years as a great power, their city were the religious center and famous for their wonders.

The arabs are originally nomadic semitic people living in the deserts and semi-deserts on the arabian peninsula. Lead by Muhameds successors, they conquered the two greatest civilizations in the world, the byzantium empire and the sassanidian persians. The byzantiums survived their raids, but lost their richest territory syria and northern africa. The arabs had in hundred years since muhameds death conquered an empire from southern France to the indus and they even fighted the chinese tang dynasty. This empire did not last so long, but the cultur, language and religion the arabs brought with them shaped the hole of this territory. The arab cities of Cordoba, Cairo, Damascus, Samarkand and Bagdad were the worlds scientific and cultural centers. The arab wise mens collected knowledge from the hole world, and the are indirectly on of the reasons for europes own knowledge since they learned it from the arabs.

The turks are a nomadic people from central asia. They have their own ethnic group and dominated the muslim world from about 1060 and untill 1918. In many of these years turkish empires were the strongest in the world (selsjuk turks, ottoman turks, mameluk turks were all the most powerful in the world at various stages).

In comparison the hebrews were a mayor power under three great kingd, and after that conquered.
The us have only excisted for three centuries, and are much more similar to the british then all these. And they have only been an international power for about 50 years (the isolationism before the second world war made them be non-excistent on the international arena).
Offcourse i would like to see the koreans ad the incas, but i must face that my own favorite, the incas are not worth it conpared to the arabs and the turks.

[civman2000]

I doubt hittites would be included under "babylonians"...but I agree with the rest

[KaiserIsak]

I dont remember the hittite capital, but i think it is in the babylonian city list. But I maybe wrong on that.

[KaiserIsak]

Hattusa was it called, i just got it. It probably is´nt in their list, but maybe it should be? And the urartu empire should maybe be as well.

[kring]

Originally posted by civman2000
i'm getting suspicious that a roman scenario will also be added...

Why not? They are doing a Shogun one; I would expect a Greek and Egypt one as well.

They will be 10 scenarios based on the article I saw at CivFanatics.



There is a new Jeff Morris interview on Gamespy about Play the World. The interview contains lots of interesting stuff and I recommend everyone to read it. Here is a summary of the new info:





New game types such as Capture the Flag and Regicide can be played in single-player. For the Capture the Flag mode, the "flag" could be a flag, a relic or an artifact. You need to take it from their city and take it to your own. Regicide puts that Civ's leader in one of their towns. If you take the town, you take the leader out and win the game.

Autobombard effectively orders a cannon or bomber to auto-bombard a square or city. You can do that with a stack of units, effectively ordering a stack of bombers to keep attacking the same square every turn.

Better stack movement, so you can marry a settler and a warrior or a warship and a transport together.

Spanish conquistador unit replaces calvalry, but doesn't need gunpowder.

Two units in the same character is now possible. This opened the door to adding units to existing character like catapults. Now you'll see guys falling down when the catapult is destroyed.

Play-by-email games have player passwords and admin passwords. If someone quits halfway through a long game, the admin can replace them with an AI or another player.

Players can set victory conditions so you can win a game by capturing a single enemy city -- first one to lose a city loses the game!

Victory Points: Some locations can be worth more than others. If you hold them at the end of the game the one with the most points wins.

Once again, the scenario editor WILL be released in June as a free download.

Balanced Multiplayer Scenarios: You can specify detailed things like "everyone gets six grasslands, all irrigated and with roads."

The game will shipped with 10 multiplayer scenarios.

World Map with Historical Start Locations for Civs will be included in the June patch!


These are all great stuff! The only disappointing thing is single player scenarios such as World War II may not be included. "Rather than take that upon ourselves, we're letting the people who really love the history of the eras do it. We're giving them the tools to do it", says Jeff Morris.

http://www.gamespy.com/e32002/pc/civ3interview/


__________________
Thunderfall

[monkspider]

I have no problem with either the Arabs or Turks being in, in fact I have frequently defended them against people who have said in the past that Persia and Babylon ably represents them.
I do, however, have a major problem that both of them are in at the cost of the Koreans and Hebrews.
I'm not quite as angry as I was last night about it, but we, the civ 3 community, need to let Firaxis know this is silly.
Actually naming them Gauls instead of Celts is highly silly as well. What on earth were they thinking with that?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think both of them SHOULD be in at the cost to the Koreans and Hebrews .

[Spiffor]

Gaul was the name of the territory which encompasses France & Belgium I think. Their identity was not bound to the territory (there were plenty of tribes) but to their ethnic origin : Celts. They referred themselves as Celts, rather than Gauls, which was the name the Romans gave to them. I'm sure the standard Apolyton modpack will replace them by Celts, those who encompass both British islands and Gaul territory.

BTW, Gauls are not ancestors of the French, even if it's taught in French schools : French are mostly from Latin ascent, and are considered a Latin folk (sure there was some interbreeding)

[Jon Shafer]

If people have such a problem with "Gaul" instead of "Celts", then just rename them in the editor. It'll take you all of 1 minute maximum.

[Spiffor]

Trip :
We would have to change the cities' names too : the Gauls cities will all be named from the mainland part of the Celt culture, none from the British part, which would be sad.

[Jon Shafer]

Okay, tack on an extra 5 minutes for adding city names then.

[monkspider]

It is just the thought that Firaxis could have commited such a serious folly that has us flustered Trip.
I guess I can just copy/paste the Celtic names from the XP pack in the Civilizations forum.

[monkspider]

double post

[KaiserIsak]

It will we wrong to say that todays french people are not the ethnic descendents of the Gauls. After the fall of the roman empire, german tribes like the franks, the visigoths (later settled in spain and south france), the burgunds and many other settled in France. Since there is very unlikely that the Gauls simply dissappeared, most people believe that they after a while got accepted into the german tribes. So todys french are a combination of the Gauls, the romans and the german tribes.
But they are culturaly in the lating group as descendents of the romans.

Like i said the arabs and the turks have had much more impact on the world then the hebrews, and i therefore think they should be in. The hebrews was great under Saul, David, and Salomon. After that they were conquered. And even when they were great they did´nt controll so much.
I dont know about the koreans, but they definatly should not be covered up by the chinese civilization, as they are very different (at least language and ethnic group). But I do feel that they are not one of the most important. (think abut the khmer empire, the incas, the bysantines+++)

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by Mikhail

Israel won't since most of the world opposes the very fact that the country exists (and, as someone else said, it's really too young. Hebrews are an ethnic group, but not really a civilization. Or a Great civilization anyway)

You're correct that the Hebrews won't be included because the world (well.... really just Europe and the Middle East) is filled with Jew-haters.

You are seriously wrong that the Hebrews weren't a civilization.

Let's see.... in antiquity the 1st Commonwealth lasted over 1000 years. The 2nd Commwealth lasted 250 years. During that time, the Hebrews produced fantastic achievements in architecture and literature-- primarily the Bible-- which became the basis of moral, ethical and religious beliefs for 3 billion people (2 billion Christians, 1 billion Moslems alone...).

I'd say a 4000 year history (with now about 1350 years of independence...) certainly qualifies as a "civilization"

Shame on you Arab posters for denigrating this achievement..... remember who came first, and where Muhammed drove his inspiration from (not just the Koran-- the Shaaria VERY closely resembles Jewish Oral law that preceeded it by 6 centuries).

Even after they lost independance, they became incredibly influential in commerce and science. Jewish scholars preserved the Greco-Roman heritage in Arab Spain, while Jewish merchants and money-lenders provided the economic backbone for the European reniassance and subsequent economic explosion.

Without Jewish/Hebrew skills, the Arabs and Europeans would still be statue worshippin' pagans, living in huts and drawing water from rivers.

I'd say that definately counts as being worthwhile.

Nevertheless, Euro and Arab Jew-hated will keep them from inclusion. And, in turn, will keep me from buying this expansion

[Panag]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth


You're correct that the Hebrews won't be included because the world (well.... really just Europe and the Middle East) is filled with Jew-haters.

You are seriously wrong that the Hebrews weren't a civilization.

Let's see.... in antiquity the 1st Commonwealth lasted over 1000 years. The 2nd Commwealth lasted 250 years. During that time, the Hebrews produced fantastic achievements in architecture and literature-- primarily the Bible-- which became the basis of moral, ethical and religious beliefs for 3 billion people (2 billion Christians, 1 billion Moslems alone...).

I'd say a 4000 year history (with now about 1350 years of independence...) certainly qualifies as a "civilization"

Shame on you Arab posters for denigrating this achievement..... remember who came first, and where Muhammed drove his inspiration from (not just the Koran-- the Shaaria VERY closely resembles Jewish Oral law that preceeded it by 6 centuries).

Even after they lost independance, they became incredibly influential in commerce and science. Jewish scholars preserved the Greco-Roman heritage in Arab Spain, while Jewish merchants and money-lenders provided the economic backbone for the European reniassance and subsequent economic explosion.

Without Jewish/Hebrew skills, the Arabs and Europeans would still be statue worshippin' pagans, living in huts and drawing water from rivers.

I'd say that definately counts as being worthwhile.

Nevertheless, Euro and Arab Jew-hated will keep them from inclusion. And, in turn, will keep me from buying this expansion

hi ,

please try to stay on topic , .....

there is room enough on the off-topic forums , ....

have a nice day

[Mikhail]

I'm a bit sore over Korea (note how I didn't attack Hebrew to it) not making it in, whether or not it was a greater civilization that Turks or Arabs, I think it would be more fun to play as them.

Personally though, the very fact that ANY of the 8 civs included in the XP are included over Byzantium (which is even more important that some of the original 16), ESPECIALLY Mongolia, is rediculous.

Yes yes, I know all these Mongol fans who want to play as a man who slaughtered innocent Russians and Persians, and playing as the most evil man in histroy is so appealing, but still.

[Alanus]

I voted for Turks/Ottoman that are a major civilization in the history of Europe and Middle East.

But for sure, Incas and Mayas would deserve consideration.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by jugurtti
I've always been annoyed because of having all english, french and germans, whose difference i really in real history can't tell and which i see belonging to the same civilization.

WTF???!!!

NO DIFFERENCES BETWEEN FRENCH AND GERMANS???!!!

You're insane. Do these dates mean anything to you? 1870, 1914, 1939

Here's a hint: Franco-Prussian War, World War I, World War II.

There's a whole lot of history that says you're wrong.

EDIT: Mikhael, I just noticed your post. Byzantium wasn't included because it is a part of Roman culture and civilization, even if not the actual Empire. It's just like America instead of the United States; they didn't include the Confederacy either.

[Jon Shafer]

Don't forget 1806 and 1813.

[KaiserIsak]

You are seriously wrong that the Hebrews weren't a civilization.

Let's see.... in antiquity the 1st Commonwealth lasted over 1000 years. The 2nd Commwealth lasted 250 years. During that time, the Hebrews produced fantastic achievements in architecture and literature-- primarily the Bible-- which became the basis of moral, ethical and religious beliefs for 3 billion people (2 billion Christians, 1 billion Moslems alone...).

I'd say a 4000 year history (with now about 1350 years of independence...) certainly qualifies as a "civilization"

Shame on you Arab posters for denigrating this achievement..... remember who came first, and where Muhammed drove his inspiration from (not just the Koran-- the Shaaria VERY closely resembles Jewish Oral law that preceeded it by 6 centuries).

Even after they lost independance, they became incredibly influential in commerce and science. Jewish scholars preserved the Greco-Roman heritage in Arab Spain, while Jewish merchants and money-lenders provided the economic backbone for the European reniassance and subsequent economic explosion.

Without Jewish/Hebrew skills, the Arabs and Europeans would still be statue worshippin' pagans, living in huts and drawing water from rivers.

I'd say that definately counts as being worthwhile.

Nevertheless, Euro and Arab Jew-hated will keep them from inclusion. And, in turn, will keep me from buying this expansion

First, i did no say that the hebrews were not a civ., i just said it did not have as much impact on the world as many others (which i will consider more important).
The biggest archievement from the hebrews,is the bible, the koran and the tora, which have had a great impact. You say that this impact is positive, but i would not be to sure about that. As an example the womens position here in norway were very weakend after the victory of christianity here in norway. And what about the wars, and tons of other things i could name.
But offcourse the christianity have brought many good things as well, i just would´nt be to sure about it being 100% positive.

You give me 4000 years of history with 1350 years of independence. I definatly agree with you that this is probably true, but remember that here you have to be one of the 24 biggest civilizations ever, and what i have heard of the old hebrew kingdom is not enough. The jews invented the religion, but never raided the world with it like the romans or the arabs, they may have conquered the philistians, but never conquered the world like the mongols or the us, the may have a long history, but they dont have a 3000+ year history as the strongest country in the world like egypt and china. My point is that they definatly have a culture and civilization that is worth talking about, but to get into this game you have to be the BEST. And the hebrews are not that.
Should we include the portuguese only for sailing to india? It is a big achievement, but is it big enough when colombus sailed to america. People may discuss this, but i think that all the civilizations should be the best in something for its time. The turks have founded at least three of the most powerful states in the world history, and even more if you count in the many turk dynasties in Persia and India.
The arabs gave, like you said, one billion people their religion, and teached us christians the ability to learn from nature and also gave us very much of the knowledge already developed to the east.

If i were to decide which civs to be included, i would rather let the hyksos (a tribe from todays israel) into the game then the hebrews. That is because they were the first to conquer the greatest civ ever, the mother civ of all of us here in west in many ways, the egyptian empire. That is remarkable.

Just one more thing, everyone who dont agree with jews are not anti-semittic. That should be perfectly simple to understand.
I dont support israels action against palestina, but that is not because i am anti-semittic (if i were, then i should not support the semittic palestinian either). That is because i think that the palestinians are people as well, and should be treated that way.

[KaiserIsak]

I think the romans should include the byzantines, that will give the roman civ a stronger candidate.

About who you would prefere to play: That is very induvidual, and as the good nationalist we are raised to be, i guess we all want to play with our own country.

As interested in history i generally want to play as a country who almost did it, and then failed. Then i can do what they did´nt (=
I think we should rather combine the americans and the british then the french and germans. But i guess they shuld all be there.

Mongolia is very important because they conquered all of it, at least more then anyone before. But more important is the trade routes that followed from east to west afterwards. The far east and the far west were binded togheter much more then before. It is also special for its destruction of midle east which not went into shadow and they made it possible for the black death to spread all across the euro-asian continent.
The mongols stand, at least for me, as a so special event that they should be included, and at a very high priority.

[civman2000]

I agree about the Hebrews, and I am jewish myself.

[Yurt]

I think that having the Babylonians, Persians, Turks and Arabs is too much. If the Incas aren't included, this will be even worse. Sure, they are all different. But cramming four civs (five if you include Egypt) into the Middle East while leaving South America completely empty is insane. I would get rid of the Persians, or combine the Turks with the Arabs. Yes, both are different from the Arabs. But are they any more different than Austria-Hungary is from Germany, or Canada from Britain? People have argued that putting in the Mayans would make for a crowded map, but having four civs vying for the small amount of quality building space in the middle east?

[jugurtti]

Originally posted by skywalker

NO DIFFERENCES BETWEEN FRENCH AND GERMANS???!!!

You're insane. Do these dates mean anything to you? 1870, 1914, 1939

"Civil wars". Doesn't proof anything. I would be happy with one germanic civ (germans, english, vikings), and one composed from spanish, italian and french. Enough distance, and all those europeans look the same

[Eli]

Originally posted by civman2000
I agree about the Hebrews, and I am jewish myself.

Check your PMs please.

[XarXo]

Brennus? Why him? I preffer Boadicea, just to put in the game a girl with a long curly read-hair, blue or green big eyes, and a huge pair of tits in a small war dress. Woah!! YES!!! Celts are known by their special relationship with nature, we want a HEALTHY and DEVELOPED girl in the game!!

This kind of girls are very common in medieval/renaissance movies, specially in road bars/"restaurants".

An example (well, she isn't read-hairish, but the she has the other things)

[Dr. Stiby]

I voted Dutch, but that was mere wishful thinking!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Turks with the Arabs. Yes, both are different from the Arabs. But are they any more different than Austria-Hungary is from Germany, or Canada from Britain?

They are as different as England is from Germany. Would you take out Germany because England and Germany are so similar?