Pure TB, TBSE or STB?

[Urban Ranger]

SE is going to screw up some operations. For example, in a turn based game, I could send in a spy to a city, seeing that it is lightly defended, send a large stack to attack it. Or maybe I bribe an enemy unit and use it in some fashion the same turn.

[0:) Innocence]

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger on 04-25-2001 12:07 PM SE is going to screw up some operations. For example, in a turn based game, I could send in a spy to a city, seeing that it is lightly defended, send a large stack to attack it. Or maybe I bribe an enemy unit and use it in some fashion the same turn.

Yes. In most SE games you select units and assign one or several waypoints. The next waypoint defines where you to go next turn. So setting 5 waypoints defines the next 5 turns of movement for that unit - of course you can change these waypoints anytime you like, but generally the idea is to reduce MM since you wont have to check up on each unit every year - in fact you could even skip a few turns since your units would move according to your plan, but it's risky since many things can happen during a turn.

Anyway: In your scenarion you would select the Spy, assign the City as the first waypoint and choose the "Investigate City" as the waypoint Order. You might set an extra waypoint to move the Spy out of the City afterwards, but this waypoint wouldn't have any effect until the following turn. And since at planning fase you don't know the strength of the defence, you decide not to move your army, just the Spy.

Alas after turn generation, you Spy would be located in the City, you would get the city report, and your army is sitting idle. Your Orders for this turn will be to move the Spy out of the city again (you already put in Orders for this via the waypoint), and as the report shows a weakly defended city you decide to assign the city as your army's waypoint.

However is this a problem? Your Spy is in the City, and even if the enemy can see your Spy he wont be able to just kill it off. All he can do is to choose a unit to attack the Spy by setting a waypoint on the Spy. This however is critical, because next turn your Spy will move out and your army will move in and attack the city, so if the enemy pursues the Spy with units he will weaken the defense of the city. So effectively you will get the same outcome - although one turn later.

But isn't the the most fair way to handle this? Each player will get a chance to act and react. The model was partly designed to counter the "I-move-before-you-so-I-screw you-over"-situation.

As for bribing enemy units, true you would not be able to use the unit until the following turn. Again I say that if you had this oppotunity the enemy wouldn't be given a fair chance to react to your action of taking over his unit.
[This message has been edited by 0 Innocence (edited April 26, 2001).]

[Adm.Naismith]

ChrisShaffer and Innocence spoken very same explanation I'd do!

Simultaneous Turns (Execution) needs some orders concept that RTS (and, to some extent, Civ II and SMAC) already developed: Waypoints, Sentry mode, Patrol, Scramble (for fighters), Transfer, Attack, Charge Attack, Hold position (to last soldier), Defense and Counterattack, Defense and Retreat (if movement points left)...

It's not so strange, is the way real things work (time lenght apart, of course). It's not as any military unit can move at maximum speed then defende itself full strenght against enemy at the end of turn.
With STE we can set ambush, plan realistic blitzkrieg...

It's not as we shift the game on military tactic, simply we can add a full shade of enhancement with a single more click (my proposal: drag unit "line of movement" with right mouse button clicked will prompt a popup menu to chose movement type; using left mouse button the previus movement type will be kept).

About the limit to tactics as "spy, destroy city walls, bribe units, attack the same turn, move reinforcement into city, sell a facility" you should consider that until very recent communication advance, every war tactic needs some time to be applyed, and often original plan was changed by battlefield unplanned events. War times are dangerous, you know

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[ChrisShaffer]

doh! I just remembered a great example of a very popular, well done TBSE game. Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters...196956,00.html has been winning awards and selling like hotcakes in the historical wargame category.

[0:) Innocence]

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer on 04-27-2001 07:26 AM doh! I just remembered a great example of a very popular, well done TBSE game. Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters...196956,00.html has been winning awards and selling like hotcakes in the historical wargame category.

Yes... that's why I mentioned CM in my little introduction document