Ai Cheats !

chrisgilbert · May 21, 2002, 15:38

This is a great game except

The AI is the biggest damn cheat i've ever seen.

PROBLEMS I have :

Nuclear subs can not EVER EVER EVER be sunken by a troop transport ship with a machine gun.
(this happened to me last night right before i uninstalled the game and about threw away the CD)

Nuclear missiles can't destroy cities ?

I don't know if they developers felt this was just to powerful a weapon and thought it would be neater to just make it reduce the city by 1/2 but I nuked a city 6 times and it was a nice little lvl 1 city forevor.

A guy with a gun can't hurt a tank. A tank is made of thick steel, and a guy with a gun (Rifleman at that) can NOT hurt a tank.

anyway this game is now on my craplist.

If anyone has any suggestions to how a Nuclear sub can be sunk by a troop transport, feel free to reply.

Otherwise I'm probably not going to ever play this game again.
Alpha Centauri is a much better game, as is CTP I.

later
Chris

Sean · May 21, 2002, 17:00

We all know the AI cheats. But not in the way you mention...that is just random chance. Though I agree the odds should be twicked.

Catt · May 21, 2002, 17:32

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisgilbert
The AI is the biggest damn cheat i've ever seen.

Not one of your points explains how the AI cheats.

Panag · May 21, 2002, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisgilbert
This is a great game except

The AI is the biggest damn cheat i've ever seen.

PROBLEMS I have :

Nuclear subs can not EVER EVER EVER be sunken by a troop transport ship with a machine gun.
(this happened to me last night right before i uninstalled the game and about threw away the CD)

Nuclear missiles can't destroy cities ?

I don't know if they developers felt this was just to powerful a weapon and thought it would be neater to just make it reduce the city by 1/2 but I nuked a city 6 times and it was a nice little lvl 1 city forevor.

A guy with a gun can't hurt a tank. A tank is made of thick steel, and a guy with a gun (Rifleman at that) can NOT hurt a tank.

anyway this game is now on my craplist.

If anyone has any suggestions to how a Nuclear sub can be sunk by a troop transport, feel free to reply.

Otherwise I'm probably not going to ever play this game again.
Alpha Centauri is a much better game, as is CTP I.

later
Chris

hi ,

would you care to post a SAV(e) , ........

what version do you have , OS ,.....?

its possible , an elite transport can , if the sub's is a bit damaged , ....

have a nice day

Jaybe · May 21, 2002, 18:13

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisgilbert
A guy with a gun can't hurt a tank. A tank is made of thick steel, and a guy with a gun (Rifleman at that) can NOT hurt a tank.
...
If anyone has any suggestions to how a Nuclear sub can be sunk by a troop transport, feel free to reply. ...

Chris, you obviously just got this game and you have not perused much of the Civ3 forums before. Your ignorance is thereby excused.

Unit graphics are just graphics. A transport unit is not necessarily just a bunch of transports (those 'landing craft' of the graphic would weather a storm no easier than a Tireme!). Consider that they get a few escorts to boot.

After a Rifleman with a smoothbore musket comes tanks, and the Rifleman gets a few anti-tank weapons, crude ones at least. So do the Infantry, and even Pikemen and Spearmen!!

Think of it as attack and defense strengths. You won't get so upset that way. If you don't like the strengths of the units, you can go into the editor and change them. Especially a good idea if you always want the more modern unit to win -- just remember that you might not always have the more modern unit!!!

BTW, while the AI does not cheat, it DOES play by some rules different than yours to make up for it not being able to "think"! The game can be full of mystery and surprises (depending on your attitude!!).

JB

Harovan · May 21, 2002, 18:20

You must have been extremely unlucky in your game. I play this game half a year now, and had not even 1 anti tank spearman. Not even a pikeman. Same with subs and transports, maybe mainly because I don't build subs. I think Jaybe's explanation is very good, you are not fighting with a tank against a rifleman, but with a 16.8.2 unit against a 4.6.1 unit. The 4.6.1 unit has some odds to win, especially if the 16.8.2 unit is already damaged, but not much. By the way, there have been instructions for guerillas about fighting tanks with Molotov cocktails and such, so far about the chances for men even without guns.

Cyclotron · May 21, 2002, 18:30

Technology dissemenates throughout the world when it is invented. This is the reason for easier tech rates for those not ahead in the tech tree, and it is also the reson (along with the obvious game balancing) that riflemen can defeat tanks.

A rifleman is not firing at the tank. If he has any brains at all, he is using the anti-tank weapons he probably is equipped with aside from his rifle. Even a unit like a musketman or spearman has sufficient mental power to pick up a gun or grenade from enemy dead... you can't control the location of every gun your Civ has ever made. Granded, changing unit graphics might be a better way to ensure verisimilitude, but this seems to be a problem only who take the game to literally: A rifleman is a guy with only a rifle who is physically incapable of using anything but a rifle. Huh?

Theseus · May 21, 2002, 18:48

Nuclear sub: 8a-4d
Transport: 1a-4d

Formula for success of attack: a/(a+d)

Thus, if the sub is attacking: 66% chance of winning each hp.

If the transport is attacking (!): 11% chance of winning each hp.
(BTW, I used to do this all the time in Civ2 when I had like 30 extra transports).

Explain it however you want, whether with rationalization or whatever, but them's the facts, ma'am.

Even Coracle gets this.

Spiffor · May 21, 2002, 18:49

Double post

Spiffor · May 21, 2002, 18:50

My friend in the military explained me it was pretty possible to destroy a tank for a foot soldier, as the FA-MAS (standard French assault rifle, equipping the French military since the 70's) is equipped with a grenade launcher, which is adapted to anti tank grenades. That's not surprising if Tanks don't come out that often in modern warfare, just like the battleship.

I'm sure most militaries in the rich countries also give a serious anti-tank weaponry to their foot soldiers.

Theseus · May 21, 2002, 18:50

Oh noooo - here comes Theseus' fleet of Attack Transports!

Cyclotron · May 21, 2002, 19:33

I think most of us agree that subs are underpowered. That doesn't invalidate the combat system as a whole.

Coracle · May 21, 2002, 19:54

My least favorite AI cheats (there are many) are two:

1. Ocean-going galleys that get teleported around the world.

2. Freebie settlers that are given to enemy military units near a just razed city.

AI cheating greatly detracts from the game.

Cyclotron · May 21, 2002, 20:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
My least favorite AI cheats (there are many) are two:

1. Ocean-going galleys that get teleported around the world.

That's not a cheat, it's a bug. Unless you are talking about a different teleportation bug... it's a result of diplomatic expulsion, right?

Quote:

2. Freebie settlers that are given to enemy military units near a just razed city.

A save? I haven't seen that one yet.

Quote:

AI cheating greatly detracts from the game.

AI cheating is also the only way to make the AI competitive. Until we perfect artificial intelligence, AI cheating is the only way to make a game's SP an actual challenge. That's reality.

Harovan · May 21, 2002, 20:01

There we go again. Ocean going galleys. Freebie settlers. Unfortunately, nobody but Coracle has seen them yet. What about a prove far from mere statements? None so far.

Lung · May 21, 2002, 20:26

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisgilbert
This is a great game except

The AI is the biggest damn cheat i've ever seen.

A guy with a gun can't hurt a tank. A tank is made of thick steel, and a guy with a gun (Rifleman at that) can NOT hurt a tank.

Not this old chestnut!

Excluding the gameplay problem of having units being impervious to other units, it's a rather broad statement you make. I saw a WWII doco on tanks, and i was amazed at how many models of German tanks were disasters as opposed to the few models that were a roaring success. Of of the worst was an anti-tank tank which had no turret and no machine gun. In being specialised to kill tanks by having a longer range by virtue of having no turret, it was defenceless against everything else - especially infantry!

You see, you seem to forget that riflemen carried weapons other than rifles. For Russian soldiers, it was like shooting fish in a barrell, by simply dropping grenades in their cockpits. Very quickly the battlefield was littered with dead tanks filled with charred corpses

I guess the lesson for the military and people such as yourself who believe that weaponry is the be-all and end-all, is that technological superiority is useless without appropriate tactics.

Pikemen attacking tanks, on the other hand.....

ACooper · May 21, 2002, 20:42

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisgilbert
This is a great game except ...blah, blah, blah..... later
Chris

Goodbye.

DL anyone?

Ethelred · May 21, 2002, 21:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
My least favorite AI cheats (there are many) are two:

Your favorite fabrications.

Quote:

1. Ocean-going galleys that get teleported around the world.

Which no one but Coracle believes happens. Coracle how about you post of save of this. You claim it so often you must have something that remotely resembles evidence.

In the meantime I think you might lay of the hallucinagenics as only that can explain your insistance on this nonexistent abberation.

Quote:

2. Freebie settlers that are given to enemy military units near a just razed city.

Nonexistant settlers that NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN. Including Coracle considering his inablity to document this apparition.

Quote:

AI cheating greatly detracts from the game.

We are waiting for real evidence of the alleged cheating Coracle. You NEVER respond to this request.

Ethelred · May 21, 2002, 21:31

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisgilbert
This is a great game except

The AI is the biggest damn cheat i've ever seen.

You may not like those things but they don't qualify as cheats. They are part of the rules and they work for you exactly like they do for the AI.

Its one thing to not like the game and you are welcome to that. Its another to call following the rules cheating.

Civ is a game about creating a Civilization. Its not a war game and its not a multi age military simulator. Things have to be abstracted.

Infantry CAN kill tanks. The Israelies got reminded of that the hard way in the Yom Kippur War when they rushed 40 tanks without infantry support to take a pass and got creamed by Egyptians with RPGs and no tanks.

Tuberski · May 21, 2002, 21:37

Coracle isn't even on the boards anymore, He posts his whines and leaves.

He almost HAS to be a DL.

star mouse · May 21, 2002, 21:39

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisgilbert
A guy with a gun can't hurt a tank. A tank is made of thick steel, and a guy with a gun (Rifleman at that) can NOT hurt a tank.

It is quite possible for a foot soldier to take out a tank. I recommend you watch the tank scene in the movie "Saving Private Ryan" for one possible method.

alva · May 21, 2002, 21:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
My least favorite AI cheats (there are many) are two:

1. Ocean-going galleys that get teleported around the world.

2. Freebie settlers that are given to enemy military units near a just razed city.

AI cheating greatly detracts from the game.

You don't miss a chance, do you

i really would like to know how you do(perform) in MP.(yes i know it' not there yet...etc,etc......)
btw, maybe you can team up with leech(or was it Leet

)

Deornwulf · May 21, 2002, 22:54

I can document the existance of ocean going galleys. I have actually seen them. The circumstances were as follows - I had the Great Lighthouse and had discovered Navigation. I actually followed an AI galley with my caravel all the way across an ocean. This was several patches ago so I don't know if the bug that allowed the AI to do this still exists. I have no desire to go back that many patches to prove it to the board but I have nothing to gain by lying.

As far as the instant settlers - I know for a fact that the AI will keep settlers on standby to be rushed to the newly vacated spots on the map. I have never seen the AI get them for free but tracked their existance through city espionage and Fighter Recon. The little buggers can move really fast after rails start appearing. However, I have noticed the AI is slow to exploit the empty space if the distance is really far from its capital.

ACooper · May 21, 2002, 23:38

Once a civ discovers Navigation it's galleys can go anywhere without restrictions.

Ethelred · May 22, 2002, 00:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Deornwulf
I can document the existance of ocean going galleys. I have actually seen them. The circumstances were as follows - I had the Great Lighthouse and had discovered Navigation. I actually followed an AI galley with my caravel all the way across an ocean. This was several patches ago so I don't know if the bug that allowed the AI to do this still exists. I have no desire to go back that many patches to prove it to the board but I have nothing to gain by lying.

That doesn't require a cheat. You also could have used a galley at that point. Presumably the AI civ also had navigation. The AI goes into the open ocean frequently once it is safe to do so. I have done it occasionally when I allready had a galley a long way from any port when I got the tech.

I have seen AI galleys sink. Not often because that requires having a unit that can see out far enough into the ocean to see it happen. I may have only seen it once or twice but it does happen.

Quote:

As far as the instant settlers - I know for a fact that the AI will keep settlers on standby to be rushed to the newly vacated spots on the map. I have never seen the AI get them for free but tracked their existance through city espionage and Fighter Recon. The little buggers can move really fast after rails start appearing. However, I have noticed the AI is slow to exploit the empty space if the distance is really far from its capital.

I think everyone has seen this. It isn't what Coracle was claiming though. Its likely that he was seeing this and decided it was cheating since he didn't notice the settlers before the city was razed. I have done it also but not very often as I usually take cities and keep them instead of razing them. I do like to send settlers into someone elses war zone if I think I can connect them to my empire as the AI does tend to raze faster than it sends in new settlers.

Jaybe · May 22, 2002, 01:11

Speaking of filling in unclaimed (razed) land:
The Zulus have been destroyed. France has settled/taken towns. One town has incense adjacent to it, but there are two incense just outside the 1-square radius. After a LONG time, France has still not built any culture in the town, so I sail 3 turns with Settler/Garrison/Worker, walk 3 more turns to where the two incense are and now I have my own incense. No longer am I tied to France's trading for incense (which was quite expensive, of course).

Soren, where has the AI financial sense gone? It would have been SO easy to just build just one culture building to claim the extra incense!

JB

Arrian · May 22, 2002, 11:17

*does the DL dance*

Though I will say this... his parting comment is more intelligent than most of the whiners - he's off to play games he will enjoy. Good idea. Coracle, you may want to try it. It's more fun than cutting and pasting the same complaints over and over.

-Arrian

Panag · May 22, 2002, 16:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Lung

Not this old chestnut!

Excluding the gameplay problem of having units being impervious to other units, it's a rather broad statement you make. I saw a WWII doco on tanks, and i was amazed at how many models of German tanks were disasters as opposed to the few models that were a roaring success. Of of the worst was an anti-tank tank which had no turret and no machine gun. In being specialised to kill tanks by having a longer range by virtue of having no turret, it was defenceless against everything else - especially infantry!

You see, you seem to forget that riflemen carried weapons other than rifles. For Russian soldiers, it was like shooting fish in a barrell, by simply dropping grenades in their cockpits. Very quickly the battlefield was littered with dead tanks filled with charred corpses

I guess the lesson for the military and people such as yourself who believe that weaponry is the be-all and end-all, is that technological superiority is useless without appropriate tactics.

Pikemen attacking tanks, on the other hand.....

hi ,

if pikeman can beat thanks , well , they must have found antitank weapons , ......

even an unarmed man can "kill" a tank , ......with some gasoline , ....

have a nice day