The Virtues of being Industrious.... - Page 4

King of Rasslin · June 2, 2002, 03:06

"There is no spoon"

What does that mean? Speak English, I'm American.

Jethro83 · June 2, 2002, 07:13

Quote:

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
I haven't really used forts that often. I am more offensive, but I would probably use forts in a deity game where the AIs would all team against me at the start of war

I am considering making forests on top of forts for an additional 15% defence bonus. Is this worth it? I haven't tried it yet. I might choose to leave some jungle standing at the border for the defence advantage.

Don't leave jungle standing just for the defensive bonus. It is rare, but disease will kill units you leave standing in the same jungle square too long.

Anyway, forests definitely do make excellent reinforcement of your forts' defenses. Consider it a moat of trees. I've tried it before to fortify a narrow land bridge between the north and south halves of my continent. I was in the north, China, who I wanted to keep good relations with were south. While I expanded and took control of the north, I didn't want Chinese settlers going through to unoccupied regions of the north (and as such force me to declare war on them prematurely). Furthermore, I was maintaining those fortifications in case they did sneak attack (as they do). I was pleased with the result when I build forts, and planted forests on their square, as the Chinese couldn't get through my infantry-filled forts, and had to instead use galleons to get through (target practice for my battleships).

Theseus · June 2, 2002, 09:36

King,

Don't play the game the way your intuition tells you; there are other solutions.

For instance, rather than initial aggressive expansion, try fewer but better cities. Expansion, resources, and luxuries can be taken at your leisure.

Instead of sheer aggression, try world manipulation.

Try wildly different settings.

BTW, did you not get the reference? The Matrix.

Ethelred · June 2, 2002, 09:43

Quote:

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
"There is no spoon"

What does that mean? Speak English, I'm American.

So is the movie that came from. The Matrix. That quote had me wondering till I watched it myself last month. I was thinking it was something from The Tick.

Txurce · June 2, 2002, 12:00

Can you imagine Mobius telling Neo to "think outside the box" instead?

My favorite posts here are the many specific variations on "there is no spoon." I've never enjoyed feeling like a dullard before.

King of Rasslin · June 2, 2002, 13:29

The Matrix was too weird of a movie for me. I like "The Force" of Star Wars fame more than manipulating a stupid computer

Theseus · June 2, 2002, 23:44

Prediction:

Rather than from an IBM or Lockheed Martin lab, the first true AI's will evolve from gaming.

MP versions of Civ-like games, with persistent learning algorithms for the non-human players, will, as they grow, create exponentially complex "worldviews." Think "War Games" tied to and interacting with a community of humans via the Internet.

"...manipulating a stupid computer."

Sort of ironic.

Theseus · June 2, 2002, 23:58

The downside:

Hammurabi, considering his advantages, will try to culturally assimilate the RL New York, and will be disappointed.

Bismarck will figure out how to hack into the Pentagon, and we are all in trouble.

Joan will realize that neither Sinead O'Connor nor pink are popular, go into a fit of depression, and disband all Musketeers.

Shaka's Impis will become the gremlins of the Internet, disrupting all connections.

Elizabeth will secretly re-eatablish the Empire, taking control of shipping company computers worldwide. The RL English all go into a permanent state of WLTKD... might be the Guiness though.

Gandhi will passively resist the other Empire, and anyone who uses Microsoft Office will have their productivity, ummm, reduced.

Cathy discovers streaming porn, and the Internet crashes.

Cleo BECOMES a streaming porn star, and the Internet crashes again.

Mao devises the "Little Red Specifications Book," and the Matrix is born.

Aeson · June 3, 2002, 01:47

Lost a big long post to my ISP... here's the gist of it

More Workers = Industrious + Micromanagement

If you can put up with moving around the number of workers necessary for making up the difference, there isn't much difference.

Example:

I had close to 1500 workers (600 captured) in one game. The turn after I had discovered the steam engine, every city square being used had railroads. I cleared 400 tiles of jungle faster than my cities could grow to use the tiles (even adding workers to the aquaduct/hospital limit). I built 20 fortresses in 1 turn (while still clearing jungles), most of them on mountains or hills. All this after adding at least 500 captured workers to my populace up to that point.

There is a slight advantage in the early going with Industrious. Not sure if it's enough to make up for either Expansionist on a standard+ sized map, Religious on any map, or Militaristic on the smaller maps. If you got some good anarchy rolls I could see the Americans being the best Huge map civ from a scoring standpoint though.

So in conclusion. It's a nice attribute to have, but usually not more valuable than others which could replace it.

King of Rasslin · June 3, 2002, 04:11

Aeson, what kind of computer do you have?

Txurce · June 3, 2002, 11:24

I agree that the industrious trait's advantages are not major, but only one trait has them: religious. (And only one trait seems near-worthless: commercial.)

Taking the traits in context with UUs, however, and the AI's relative advantage at the start of the game, it could be argued that it's hard to beat Egypt's quickly researched and built WCs moving on quickly-built roads, when your first goal is to become the dominant continental power. This combination allows you to cripple the nearby ancient-era heavyweights - the Persians, Romans and Iroquois - before they can research and build sufficient numbers of their UUs.

As in this case, the industrious trait can provide a slight advantage in the crucial early going, which - properly exploited - sets the tone for the rest of the game. It's hard to argue against this trait's strengths if building that road to Persia two turns early makes the difference in shutting down the Persian war machine before it ever kicks over.

Theseus · June 3, 2002, 13:15

On the other hand, in MP:

"Thank you SO much for building roads for my Immortals to march upon. Really... What an unexpected surprise! This will do much to bring our people together, Cleopatra. Thank you."

Txurce · June 3, 2002, 15:30

In this particular case, I'm not sure that MP would make much difference. Take these two civs beelining for their respective UU tech, and both building roads. Are the Egyptians going to be able to pump out enough chariots fast enough to nip the Immortal onslaught in the bud? Quite possibly. But since there is no MP, we can't really pursue this.

Arrian · June 3, 2002, 18:43

I thought a comparison of two games of mine, played on the same settings, with Japan in one and China in the other, might be interesting. I've already posted the Japanese game in the "Fundamentals of Mobilization Revealed" thread, so here is the Chinese game.

Same strategy in both games: set up core, build vet chariots & warriors, upgrade 'n kill. Then build.

The overall results were similar, but I feel that the Japanese game went better.

-Arrian

Hurrying Heinz · June 3, 2002, 20:00

Hey Vel, welcome back. I'm actually Lawrence of Arabia but my screenname got messed up so I got a new one. Now I'm a settler <<---- that sucks

I'm gonna be posting a "REX, the ultimate guide to " thread within the next week.

To stay on topic, Ill just say that Industrious is good, but Expansionist is better. When you REX with both Industrious and Expansionist, you get the best of both worlds. While you are waiting for your cities to build up, you pump out scouts to go and pop as many huts as possible and hopefully get all of the acient age techs this way. Then you sell em and make lotta money.

King of Rasslin · June 3, 2002, 20:11

I like the Japanese more than the Eygptians. The early golden age really hurts Eygpt. I can be in republic before I send off the immortals because they are useful for a longer period of time. But I find the Japanese to be the best because their revolution is only 1 turn, their golden age is perfectly timed, and their UU is awesome. China has a good one too, but I don't like them because they aren't religious.

Jethro83 · June 3, 2002, 20:51

I play as Egypt, but I don't use their UU at all. I get my golden age going in peacetime, as a republic/democracy with wonders. That way, I can get ahead in wealth and tech (since before this point, most of my technology is bought/extorted from other civs, and my large military really empties my coffers).

Txurce · June 3, 2002, 22:36

I understand the principle of why any civ would be better off with a later GA, but I happily plunge into mine as Egypt, the better to build those WCs that make later eras an afterthought in most cases.

Theseus · June 3, 2002, 23:05

I just looked at Arrian's Japanese game, with awe. Now I gotta be blown away again? Jeez.

Hurrying Heinz · June 3, 2002, 23:11

Where can I get it from?

Arrian · June 4, 2002, 08:54

Theseus,

Hey man, you play Emperor, and I play Monarch, and I think there's a big difference there. Keep that in mind.

I play Monarch still because I am into totally wrecking the AI like I've managed to in those two games.

-Arrian

p.s. check your PM's

Txurce · June 4, 2002, 13:12

Arrian, my Mac doesn't open your games. That UU upgrade bug I have was fixed on the 1.21 patch, but the Mac patch isn't ready yet. And MacSoft has yet to cut a deal with Infogrames re: PTW. Detect a pattern?

So what did you do in those games to leave Theseus in shock?

Arrian · June 4, 2002, 13:40

Txurce,

Doh! I forgot you have a Mac.

What did I do? Let's see... the Japanese game:

Started on 5 civ continent. Destroyed France, England, India and China, got 4 GLs or so. Built up, gained a good tech lead (though not great, b/c one of the overseas AI's built the Colossus and Great Library... or at least that's what I think did it), gained a massive power lead (score more than 3x nearest AI, IIRC). Built a bunch of Cavalry, backed by muskets and cannon, and anhiliated Rome (they had two luxuries, so they died). I believe the save is from 1510AD. My armies of Cavalry and Infantry are slowly munching on Germany. Russia is not a concern, as Bismarck man beat up on them earlier.

I have every medieval and industrial wonder, with the exception of Shakespeares. I have a massive economy, 7 luxuries, and my empire is close to a domination victory. I launch a galleon or two full of infantry every turn, and am working on learning how to build tanks.

The Chinese game:

Started on a five civ continent. Destroyed Babylon, Persia, India, and Japan. Got about five leaders. Lost the Pyramids to an overseas civ (I hate that). Spent what felt like forever as a despot, cleaning up the continent. Golden age as despot (ACK!). Built up, gained a large tech/power lead despite my long stay in despotism, nailed all desired wonders (except the aforementioned pyramids), built some Cavalry and Infantry, sailed over and started munching on America. I had destroyed their core cities when I won via domination... I don't remember how close the save is to that. Final score 5700ish.

These are, clearly, examples of games that went well. They illustrate the potential of my strategy, which is why I posted them. It doesn't always work out, though. So goes my continuing search for the Game of Ultimate Power (tm).

-Arrian

Txurce · June 4, 2002, 13:54

Arrian, I am beginning to see what TOTAL domination means. My three domination wins have all been on five-civ continents - it's a great enticement to go for it. The Pyramids are tough because they're the #1 ancient-era wonder, so the odds are good that a decent overseas civ will nab it ahead of the human focused on warmongering. When seizing control of the game and taking over the tech lead, do you beeline for navigation or magnetism, the faster to invade those other guys?

Arrian · June 4, 2002, 14:04

My tech sequence is all about making sure I get the wonders I want.

I enter the middle ages by getting tech from either the beaten AI or the Great Library. This usually gets me to feudalism, sometimes all the way to Theology. Ok, that's the tech for Sun Tzu and the Sistine. Next up is Leo's: beeline for Invention. Next, Copernicus: beeline for Astronomy. Next, Economics for Adam Smith. Then, a slight detour for Music Theory so I can build Bach's. Next, on to Theory of Gravity for Newton's. By this point, contact has usually been made. If I'm waaaaaaay ahead, I will go get Democracy. If I'm just plain 'ole ahead, I will get Mil. Tradition and Magnetism, so I can get on with the Industrial Era (and be able to kick butt with Cavalry).

Depending on how the ancient wars went, I may or may not have to grab chivalry to finish things off. Otherwise, I ignore it. My GA will be triggered by the wonders anyway, so unless there is a compelling military reason for Samurai, why waste four turns?

Final domination usually occurs in the mid-industrial period. Early Industrial is all about building factories, hospitals, police stations, Univ. Suffrage, ToE, and Hoover. I don't actually NEED these things. I want them. Building them no doubt delays final victory. Once all that stuff is build, I make up for lost time and punch out a strong Cavalry/Infantry/Artillery force and go to work. Occasionally, I will even hang around for Tanks, but I've been less and less likely to wait that long.

-Arrian

punkbass2000 · June 4, 2002, 14:41

What level are these games?!

FrustratedPoet · June 4, 2002, 14:55

Arrian's are on Monarch

... impressive. or at least they are to a Civ3 lamer like me anyway.

I struggle to win on Warlord ... I'll try a game on Monarch some time soon and see how quickly the AI hands me my ass.

This is a great thread, I'll try and be an industrious civ, prolly Egypt, and use some of these tactics. It should improve my game ... but it couldn't make me a lot worse.

punkbass2000 · June 4, 2002, 16:45

Oh, Monarch? Phew! I was thinking this was Deity!

That actually sounds possible on Monarch.

Arrian · June 5, 2002, 10:59

Yeah, not much chance of pulling that off on diety. Maybe on Emperor... I will try it at some point. But for now I'm enjoying Monarch.

-Arrian

Harovan · June 5, 2002, 11:20

I begun somehow to dislike the Sistine. Since I build my cities dense now and put a big emphasize on mining instead of irrigating, my cities won't grow very much and happiness is less of an issue. Having many cities sometimes makes culture a problem. Having 1000+ year old cathedrals in 50 cities is... ouch!

... 300 culture per turn. And if I start to sell those cathedrals, I lose 6 content faces at once, which usually hurts. I rather run for Bachs now, which does not depend on improvements. That's a plus, as the AI doesn't put a high priority to a dead end tech like Music Theory.